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Your unarmed fighting style emulates the strength and ferocity of a tiger.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against bull rush, overrun, and trip maneuvers. You can also deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. Whenever you score a critical hit with your slashing unarmed strike, your opponent also takes 1d4 points of bleed damage at the start of his next two turns.
Normal: Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning damage.
You can sacrifice multiple attacks to make a single devastating strike.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +6 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: While you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free, you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands.
Use your highest base attack bonus, rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately and multiplying both if you score a critical hit.
If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, increase your Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus.
If you hit, you can attempt a bull rush maneuver with a +2 bonus on the combat maneuver check. This bull rush attempt provokes no attack of opportunity from your opponent, but you cannot move with that opponent if your bull rush is successful.
Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.
Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.
Was the modifications for Power Attack from Tiger Pounce meant to apply to attacks from all weapons, or just those from unarmed strikes?
tiger pounce is any weapon for the power attack deal.
It's what the rules say.
"While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls."
Nothing in there says, with US or only when using US or when making US.
Those have nothing to do with what this feat is doing.
There are plenty of feats that has flavor text that has nothing to do with the benefits or limitations of the feat.
The mechanics of other feats has nothing to do with this feat. The other two say explicitly what they do and explicitly mentions US for stuff. This feat doesn't mention US for the Power attack deal.
What you think the rule should be doesn't change what the rules are saying here.
hahahaha, You're funny. Why would what another feat does have anything to do with this feat?
Combat expertise has nothing to do with improved maneuvers.
Vital strike has nothing to do with TWF.
mobility has nothing to do with whirlwind attack.
No feat cares what other feats do, unless it specifically mentions.
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You mean like:hahahaha, You're funny. Why would what another feat does have anything to do with this feat?
Combat expertise has nothing to do with improved maneuvers.
Vital strike has nothing to do with TWF.
mobility has nothing to do with whirlwind attack.No feat cares what other feats do, unless it specifically mentions.
Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.
Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat,
EDIT: ninjaed by CBD
Was expecting a more general "Do Style Feats only apply while unarmed" sort of thread, as that's the real heart of the issue being had here, but I suppose if we want an answer to a more specific set of feats, then that's fine too.
Maybe they'll expand onto the above question with the answer they provide.
FAQ'd.
Yeah, when using tiger style. Tiger style is a stance that takes a swift action to active. So all that it is saying is if you've activated tiger style.
How in the world are you getting that from the words that are written on the page?
Styles feats are swift action to active that style
tiger style is a style feat.
When using tiger style feat and power attack do ...
Like how in the world are you seriously seeing
Styles feats are swift action to active that style
tiger style is a style feat.
When using tiger style feat and power attack with an unarmed strike do ...
The words literally aren't there.
But those have nothing to do with this feat.
I look at the previous feats in the chain for improved trip and find combat expertise. Has nothing to do with my feat.
I look at weapon trick to attack with 2 weapons as a standard action, pre-req of vital strike, which is attacking with 1 weapon.
I look at whirlwind and see mobility, but I'm not moving during whirlwind.
Previous feats of the chain have nothing to do with later feats in chain. Feats do what they say they do. Not what you think they should do.
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Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
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Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
Though the "pounce" part specifically calls out "unarmed strike or combat maneuvers"
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But those have nothing to do with this feat.
I look at the previous feats in the chain for improved trip and find combat expertise. Has nothing to do with my feat.
I look at weapon trick to attack with 2 weapons as a standard action, pre-req of vital strike, which is attacking with 1 weapon.
I look at whirlwind and see mobility, but I'm not moving during whirlwind.
Previous feats of the chain have nothing to do with later feats in chain. Feats do what they say they do. Not what you think they should do.
Whitlwind doesn't specifically call out "when using mobility" like Tiger Pounce does though. None of the examples you gave were Style feats either.
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Though the "pounce" part specifically calls out "unarmed strike or combat maneuvers"Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
Yes. You don't need your hands to do a combat maneuver.
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Yes. You don't need your hands to do a combat maneuver.Though the "pounce" part specifically calls out "unarmed strike or combat maneuvers"Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
My point was it specifically called out combat maneuvers.
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My point was it specifically called out combat maneuvers.Yes. You don't need your hands to do a combat maneuver.Though the "pounce" part specifically calls out "unarmed strike or combat maneuvers"Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
And my point is that this feat explicitly calls out combat maneuvers i.e. not exclusively unarmed strikes. Earlier feats have a restriction that is lifted in Tiger Pounce.
When using tiger style just means when you've spend the swift action to enter the stance. That's it. that's all it means.
How can we be sure? Because Tiger style itself says, "While using this style". So obviously since you can't use a feats benefits to gain the feats benefits it must be referring to the activation of style stance using a swift action.
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And my point is that this feat explicitly calls out combat maneuvers i.e. not exclusively unarmed strikes. Earlier feats have a restriction that is lifted in Tiger Pounce.My point was it specifically called out combat maneuvers.Yes. You don't need your hands to do a combat maneuver.Though the "pounce" part specifically calls out "unarmed strike or combat maneuvers"Style feats are feat chains that explicitly build on each other. Other feat chain examples don't really apply.
I think it is weird that Tiger Pounce would depart so much from the other feats, but three feats for Reckless Abandon seems reasonable. The pounce part of Tiger Pounce can also be used without unarmed strikes, so the Power Attack part probably can be, too.
The restriction isn't lifted, it just specifically calls out something extra CMs can do. It calls them out.
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When using tiger style just means when you've spend the swift action to enter the stance. That's it. that's all it means.
How can we be sure? Because Tiger style itself says, "While using this style". So obviously since you can't use a feats benefits to gain the feats benefits it must be referring to the activation of style stance using a swift action.
And Tiger Style involves two things, a bonus to CMD, and bonuses to your unarmed strikes.
I just don't agree with the notion that because the style gives you a bonus to CMD means 2 feats later that the modifications to PA apply to everything, when the previous feats only applied to unarmed strikes.
I think the current wording is that tiger pounce lets you apply the attack penalty from power attack to ac for all attacks.
I think the intention was to limit it to unarmed strikes.
Tiger claws provides you a new unarmed strike that you can make as a full-round action, provided both hands are empty. This attack specially increased by power attack.
It makes sense that tiger pounce, improves upon this, as it makes you more likely to hit with power attack, and provides a way to move as a swift action, presumably to continue clawing the same target if they move away from you.
I'll throw a FAQ and dot behind this. The clarification is useful.
Tiger style says when using tiger style you get bonuses. Thus using tiger style isn't anything to do with the tiger style feat itself but being in the style stance.
Tiger pounce says when using tiger style you get bonuses. Thus using this doesn't care about what any other feat is granting either.
That is understood. How you think the feat should work != how the feat works. Rules of feats is that those preceding two feats don't determine how this third feat works.
I think if there was more confusion or questions with a RAW read, there would be value in looking at previous feats for RAI. That being said, the feat works perfectly fine with the RAW reading and I see no reason to not be permissive in this scenario.
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That is understood. How you think the feat should work != how the feat works. Rules of feats is that those preceding two feats don't determine how this third feat works.
And I believe very much in this case "when using Tiger Style" means it applies to things Tiger Style applies to, rather than simply everything.
Tiger style: Only benefits to unarmed attacks.
Tiger claws: Only benefits unarmed attacks and a free bull rush.
Tiger pounce: Can swift action move closer to a target you made an unarmed strike or combat maneuver on. Allows trading power attack penalty to ac instead of attack. Does not limit this to unarmed strikes, but logically should.
That is understood. How you think the feat should work != how the feat works. Rules of feats is that those preceding two feats don't determine how this third feat works.And I believe very much in this case "when using Tiger Style" means it applies to things Tiger Style applies to, rather than simply everything.
So then in tiger style when it says, "When using this style" it applies to things that tiger style applies to? But wait, how can you apply to things that already have a bonus when you're the one deciding what and where the bonuses are going?
This is it. Your entire argument falls flat because tiger style itself says, "When using this style" and then list benefits. Thus the unarmed bonuses you find in tiger style aren't "using the style" but are gained "when using this style" so in both "using tiger style" must refer to having activated the style as a swift action. And that's it. Not about when making slashing attacks with US or any other limiter.
Like you can believe it's supposed to be limited. But you could also believe that fort +4 is fort +6. Doesn't make your belief the rules.
The way I read Tiger Pounce is like this:
Tiger Style takes a swift action to activate. Once you have activated it, you gain two benefits. The first is to your CMD against a few combat maneuvers. The second is that you may deal slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. Now, whether or not you use your unarmed strikes you still gain a bonus to CMD against those combat maneuvers as long as you have the feat and it has been activated.
Now Tiger Pounce comes along and says as long as you have Tiger Style active, you may choose to apply your Power Attack penalty to your AC instead of your attack roll. Nowhere does it mention using your unarmed strikes to deal damage using Power Attack. It's an assumed thing because otherwise there's a lot of wasted feat text at this point. But it doesn't matter.
You don't even need to look at any other feats in this chain, including Tiger Claws, to come to this conclusion.
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Does not limit this to unarmed strikes, but logically should.
Personally, I tend to think that the way the rules 'logically should' work... is the way the rules work.
They shouldn't need to spell every detail out over and over again. The rules are written with the assumption that people will make logical conclusions about the intent... not parse each sentence mathematically and in isolation from all context.
But we have NO intent that styles are only for unarmed.
But we do have Dev intent saying something like, that IUS is just a prereq to make it easier for the monk to get these and harder for other classes. not that they are required to be used with unarmed strikes.
So I'm going to stick with the dev intent that these aren't only for US until devs say they changed their mind
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As currently written, Tiger Pounce applies to all attacks using power attack. There are no rules stating otherwise.
RAI may or may not be that it is intended to work only with unarmed strikes. We simply do not have that information and anyone declaring that the RAI is that it only works with unarmed strikes is making an assumption unless there is a corresponding statement from the Devs.
Chess Pwn is correct here.
But we have NO intent that styles are only for unarmed.The first line of the feat is literally "Your unarmed strikes are..."
To say there's no statement of intent is absurd.
Flavor text isn't intent.
Let's take another feat as an example of your proposition; Shield Slam will do nicely. Here's what it says:
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
By the logic of flavor text serving as intent, Shield Slam would require special positioning, such as flanking, or being above (or below) the opponent; hell, even being inside the square could be "in the right position," because that's "supposedly" the feat's intent.
But all it says in the "Benefit" section is that the enemy is hit with a shield attack that you make. So where's the "right position" relevance to how the feat functions?
SPOILERALERTTHEREISN'TANY
And that's just one feat among several, where the flavor text does not match up, or is even hardly relevant, to what the feat allows a character to accomplish.
So no, the flavor text isn't intent at all, because it fails to provide what the rules say the intent is. Saying something is intent would be citing the feat developer's opinion, as was the case with the Bodyguard feat (which has recently been revoked by an official FAQ, I might add).
At best, it gives a generic description of the feat, and fails to follow what people would assume it does; quite horribly, I might add, which means errata is needed.
At worst, it's flavor text, which is equally as absurd as saying that it provides the sole intent of the feat's function.
At worst, it's flavor text, which is equally as absurd as saying that it provides the sole intent of the feat's function.No one said 'sole' intent. The assertion was there's nothing to indicate the feat was supposed to have an unarmed focus, when the first four words of the feat's text are about unarmed strike. So I mean... it's written right there, plain as day, no matter how much you want to pretend that text doesn't exist.
This is pummeling style all over again. Everyone knew how the feat was supposed to work because the text said as much, but it didn't actually matter.
Don't have to. When that's your only evidence, it's really the sole "intent" you have.
Dismissal on account of inaccuracy in relation to the written benefits (just like several other feat flavor texts which do the same exact thing) isn't the same thing as pretending it's not there. It's actually more believable than putting in wording that isn't there (such as the benefits to your CMD, Power Attack option, and movement option works only with unarmed strikes).
Pummeling Style, as far as I can recall, has the same "problem" that Tiger Style (and several other Style feats) have. As written, Pummeling Style worked with any weapon, and not simply with unarmed strikes. A FAQ and Errata later, the feat benefits now match with what the developers expected the feat to do.
I imagine if enough buzz with this is being given (though in my opinion, it probably won't due to the thread title being something that the PDT abhors), maybe history will repeat itself.
I just think instead of simply getting FAQs and Erratas for specific Style Feats, we should've gotten a universal Style Feat FAQ that answers whether all Style Feats are for Unarmed Combat only or not, because that's really the only problem people are having currently, and is why this FAQ is made; the question posed and the answer the OP are looking for may very well be two different things, and since this only applies to a specific feat chain, and not Style Feats as a whole (which is what the OP's real gripe is with), he's going to keep making one after another with every other Style Feat until the PDT comes in and blanketly says "Style Feats are Unarmed Combat only."
Otherwise, all it does is waste time, create stress, and delays the inevitable "Yes/No/Maybe" that the PDT will give us. And that's bull$#!^.
I just think instead of simply getting FAQs and Erratas for specific Style Feats, we should've gotten a universal Style Feat FAQ that answers whether all Style Feats are for Unarmed Combat only or not
Why would you need an FAQ for that when we already have style feats that can't function with unarmed strikes?
Let's take another feat as an example of your proposition; Shield Slam will do nicely. Here's what it says:
By the logic of flavor text serving as intent, Shield Slam would require special positioning, such as flanking, or being above (or below) the opponent; hell, even being inside the square could be "in the right position," because that's "supposedly" the feat's intent.In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
It could also be read as meaning "by holding your shield in the correct position your shield can send opponents flying." I.e. not a position based ability but a way you hold the shield lets you make free bull rushes when you shield slam with it.
Saying the intent is for it to work with any weapon, when the description is: "Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed." is big reach. Yes its how it was written. Its a weak position to say it wasn't intended to apply only to unarmed strikes.