I am running ROTRL and two of my players are becoming a spot of bother.
First is a mesmerist, second is an arcane archer:
The mesmerist I just really need some tricks to throw their way and to stop them destroying combat.
The archer however is the most difficult player, I am looking for ways to challenge the archer so he doesn't kill bosses in 3-4 hits. Maybe something to keep his attention for a bit and maybe some help with dealing with know-it-alls.
Thanks everyone.
What level are the characters and what part of the AP are you at?
If low and still early into the AP, a lot of those issues get taken care of by the high CR critters.
What level are the characters and what part of the AP are you at?
If low and still early into the AP, a lot of those issues get taken care of by the high CR critters.
Currently they are on level 14, but soon to be 15th level. We are currently near the end of Chapter 5, so it makes it a bit tricky for me.
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I am running ROTRL and two of my players are becoming a spot of bother.
First is a mesmerist, second is an arcane archer:The mesmerist I just really need some tricks to throw their way and to stop them destroying combat.
The archer however is the most difficult player, I am looking for ways to challenge the archer so he doesn't kill bosses in 3-4 hits. Maybe something to keep his attention for a bit and maybe some help with dealing with know-it-alls.Thanks everyone.
So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
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Progressively add higher CR opponents until the gameplay balances.
What is the proper definition of "Balance?"
I've never seen a definitive definition when it comes to the game of Pathfinder. It is always each person's interpretation of what they feel is "Balanced".
By level 15 most encounters are purely rocket tag as when enemies that high a level are given a chance to fight back they have very deadly abilities.
So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
It's not that at all, the archer does 5x the damage as every other character in the group and some of the fun away from others 90% of the time. I have added in different enemies and changed some difficulties to resolve this. But with not much luck.
Progressively add higher CR opponents until the gameplay balances.
I have tried that but there is a large difference between archer and everyone else when it comes to DMG. So what was good to challenge him near wiped the party.
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It's not that at all, the archer does 5x the damage as every other character in the group and some of the fun away from others 90% of the time. I have added in different enemies and changed some difficulties to resolve this. But with not much luck.So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
Archery is the highest DPR in Pathfinder. He will always out damage everyone else in the group.
What kind of weapon does he have?
If he does not have a Cyclonic Bow you can always have the Caster types cast Fickle Winds or Wind wall to slow down his DPR and give other characters the chance to "Deal" with that enemy. Tho on an arcane Archer I would assume a Dispel Magic will go out the following round so he can land his arrows.
I am not looking to punish my players, but I am looking for ways to distract and slow down the archer and mes.
It's not that at all, the archer does 5x the damage as every other character in the group and some of the fun away from others 90% of the time. I have added in different enemies and changed some difficulties to resolve this. But with not much luck.So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
Archery is the highest DPR in Pathfinder. He will always out damage everyone else in the group.
What kind of weapon does he have?
If he does not have a Cyclonic Bow you can always have the Caster types cast Fickle Winds or Wind wall to slow down his DPR and give other characters the chance to "Deal" with that enemy. Tho on an arcane Archer I would assume a Dispel Magic will go out the following round so he can land his arrows.
Weapon: last time I checked +2 or 3 composite long bow, with element dmg.
Thanks, never thought of "Wing wall" I will try out this. Any enemies which may keep the character busy for a couple rounds? that you could suggest.|
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It's not that at all, the archer does 5x the damage as every other character in the group and some of the fun away from others 90% of the time. I have added in different enemies and changed some difficulties to resolve this. But with not much luck.So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
Archery is the highest DPR in Pathfinder. He will always out damage everyone else in the group.
What kind of weapon does he have?
If he does not have a Cyclonic Bow you can always have the Caster types cast Fickle Winds or Wind wall to slow down his DPR and give other characters the chance to "Deal" with that enemy. Tho on an arcane Archer I would assume a Dispel Magic will go out the following round so he can land his arrows.
Weapon: last time I checked +2 or 3 composite long bow, with element dmg.
Thanks, never thought of "Wing wall" I will try out this. Any enemies which may keep the character busy for a couple rounds? that you could suggest.An Enemy that can cast Fickle Winds on his party can put a shut down on Archers without Access to a cyclonic bow or a Dispel Magic.
Book 5-6 has lots of casters in it and you as the DM can easily change the spell list to have fickle winds on there prepared list. If they are alerted to the group they have it up pre-buffed.
Without Seeking on his bow leaves me to question if they have Improved Precise Shot? If not Mirror Image/Displacement would be great buffs to have on enemies making the archer miss 1/2 his shots will really slow him down.
if he doesn't have clustershot then DR can help reduce his damage, but like Fruian said, archery is THE DAMAGE OPTION once you have all the feats. Be glad that it's not an actually good archer build, Arcane archer is less damage than many other archery styles.
Archery is also quite self guiding, it's pretty clear to see which feats you need. Other combat styles usually take some work to work out, so if your other players aren't built for damage then of course the damage archer is winning.
Now, 3-4 hits is 1 rounds worth of attacks, double check his math to make sure his damage is correct. Double check is ability to add spells onto arrows if he's doing that. Very often problematic characters are from a misunderstanding how a rule or ability works.
I'm not sure how a mesmerist is destroying combats. again, double check the abilities and what he's doing.
The boards love examining builds, so if you can and want to get their info and tactics and display it here we can tell you if they SHOULD be doing what they are doing. Then if you can share some of what the other players are we might get insight onto why they are falling behind.
It's not that at all, the archer does 5x the damage as every other character in the group and some of the fun away from others 90% of the time. I have added in different enemies and changed some difficulties to resolve this. But with not much luck.So Doing well needs fixed or punished for doing well at combat?
What are your Expectations for Combat? Everything challenges them and brings everyone close to death by the end of all combats? Because any typical group with even moderate optimization for combat will tear through most APs.
You saving grace is the final boss fight will be an extremely hard encounter for any group.
Archery is the highest DPR in Pathfinder. He will always out damage everyone else in the group.
What kind of weapon does he have?
If he does not have a Cyclonic Bow you can always have the Caster types cast Fickle Winds or Wind wall to slow down his DPR and give other characters the chance to "Deal" with that enemy. Tho on an arcane Archer I would assume a Dispel Magic will go out the following round so he can land his arrows.
Weapon: last time I checked +2 or 3 composite long bow, with element dmg.
Thanks, never thought of "Wing wall" I will try out this. Any enemies which may keep the character busy for a couple rounds? that you could suggest.
An Enemy that can cast Fickle Winds on his party can put a shut down on Archers without Access to a cyclonic bow or a Dispel Magic.
Book 5-6 has lots of casters in it and you as the DM can easily change the spell list to have fickle winds on there prepared list. If they are alerted to the group they have it up pre-buffed.
Without Seeking on his bow leaves me to question if they have Improved Precise Shot? If not Mirror Image/Displacement would be great buffs to have on enemies making the archer miss 1/2 his shots will really slow him down.
I believe he has Seeking and improved precise shot, plus they use Snipe a lot. anything against that? or to stop A-O-O?
I think you need to mechanically explain exactly what he's doing. My money is at least 1 rule is understood wrong.
if he doesn't have clustershot then DR can help reduce his damage, but like Fruian said, archery is THE DAMAGE OPTION once you have all the feats. Be glad that it's not an actually good archer build, Arcane archer is less damage than many other archery styles.
Archery is also quite self guiding, it's pretty clear to see which feats you need. Other combat styles usually take some work to work out, so if your other players aren't built for damage then of course the damage archer is winning.
Now, 3-4 hits is 1 rounds worth of attacks, double check his math to make sure his damage is correct. Double check is ability to add spells onto arrows if he's doing that. Very often problematic characters are from a misunderstanding how a rule or ability works.I'm not sure how a mesmerist is destroying combats. again, double check the abilities and what he's doing.
The boards love examining builds, so if you can and want to get their info and tactics and display it here we can tell you if they SHOULD be doing what they are doing. Then if you can share some of what the other players are we might get insight onto why they are falling behind.
I will re-call all sheets and go through them all, to make sure. Thanks again!
I'm a LOT earlier in running Jade Regent, but I can truly sympathize. I've got a bladebound magus played by a very experienced, well-optimizing player. The character runs rings around the other PCs. The advice I got was to adjust the AP encounters to add minions. What I was told is that the APs in general give APL+0 or APL+1 encounters, which work if strung together three to four in a PC's day -- but there's room to add a bit if you've got a capable party. Plus, you may need to reassess the APL you have with your party, and therefore the CR that you need. It sounds like those two characters are in essence +1 APL between them.
The idea of adding minions is to make sure that there are a variety of CR's present, so that everyone can participate & have fun. Plus, just adding bodies ups the length of time that a combat takes. In conclusion, I pass on the following link I received w/ great pleasure:
GM’s Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters
The game is tonight, I am collecting in the sheets tonight and will go over them. If I can't find anything I will upload states and all.
Currently the party is 6 players but with 1 permanent NPC they have.
Pally, rogue, mes, cleric, arcane archer & wiz.
You need to use a little magic.
Wind Wall was a good suggestion. How about (Quickened, possibly with a rod) Mirror Image? The archer could waste all of his shots, or all but one of his shots, on images.
How close is the archer to the action? If he's near, a melee guy can charge him and get in his face. If he's far, he's vulnerable to strategic (not rules-based) flanks. (I did something like that in a 4e game I was running last weekend. Some zombies attacked the front door, and while the PC frontliners were dealing wit them, the necromancer sent more zombies through the back door. All of a sudden the wizard and non-frontline cleric were in trouble. Channel Energy wasn't quite enough to deal with the zombies.)
Since he's higher level, use an invisible stalker for the strategic flank. They're fast, they're invisible, and even if he can spot it he has a 50% miss chance. (Or he has to spend a round casting a spell that lets him see it.) Even nastier is a fast-moving burrowing creature (perhaps with Haste or other speed-boosting magic), other than using a Phasing Arrow, the archer can't even hit their attacker until they emerge in the archer's face.
Use the occasional creature with DR that is not x/magic, but x/bludgeoning or x/slashing. Arrows only deal one type of damage. Preferably something fast, or something mounted on something fast (that is also resistant to damage). I think nightmares create clouds of smoke around them that mess up targeting anyway.
Use summons. A summon won't have a CR nearly as high as the archer's level, but that's not the point. The archer isn't going to be good in melee, and if you summon a high CMB creature literally right next to the archer, things are going to suck... especially if the archer is far from the rest of the party.
Copy his build. Maybe build a magus with the feat to deflect arrows. I think you can only deflect an arrow once per round, but with the magus's other magical defenses that's more than sufficient. (Displacement's a good one. Half the arrows...
Thanks! I have been using some magic but these are great to try, the double flank idea with zombies for yours sounds great and it would add some real tension in that combat.
I will try some of this tonight, thanks again.
I'm a LOT earlier in running Jade Regent, but I can truly sympathize. I've got a bladebound magus played by a very experienced, well-optimizing player. The character runs rings around the other PCs. The advice I got was to adjust the AP encounters to add minions. What I was told is that the APs in general give APL+0 or APL+1 encounters, which work if strung together three to four in a PC's day -- but there's room to add a bit if you've got a capable party. Plus, you may need to reassess the APL you have with your party, and therefore the CR that you need. It sounds like those two characters are in essence +1 APL between them.
The idea of adding minions is to make sure that there are a variety of CR's present, so that everyone can participate & have fun. Plus, just adding bodies ups the length of time that a combat takes. In conclusion, I pass on the following link I received w/ great pleasure:
GM’s Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters
Bitter lily, thanks I have gotten through near 5 chapters and just want to make this last one really stand out, while giving ever player a suited level of challenge. Which a good amount of magic will help with and adding minions. But I have built some monsters and such to help and to get everyone involved.
Thanks!
One thing I like to do with well built archers is to have an enemy sunder the bow,
not break the bow entirely but hit the bowstring because it's an easy fix and it doesn't break the weapon entirely. He might go an encounter without his bow at worst and it will give him incentive to keep spare strings or a secondary weapon on hand.
It's also a mundane way of handling things without adding enemies or using magic. A lot of times an archer CMD isn't going to be very high.
I did not see this anywhere else, but: how are you adjusting the combats in the APL to account for a 6-player party instead of the intended 4?
Never underestimate Obscuring Mist and spells like it.
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I did not see this anywhere else, but: how are you adjusting the combats in the APL to account for a 6-player party instead of the intended 4?
Yes I was going to mention this as well.
Most APs are designed for a 4 person party on a 15 Point buy.
Doing a 6 person party makes things much easier due to action economy of 6 PCs.