What would the future look like if Pathfinder magic and monsters suddenly appeared on modern-day Earth?

[John Napier 698]

The 3rd edition GURPS Technomancer book has some interesting ideas along this thread of discussion.

[Wszebor Uriev]

That'd be an incredibly bleak future. Consider that any arcane classes would start at 1st level (or higher than first as martial, but have to retrain). There'd be no spell books to learn from, so everyone would be learning from scratch. Perhaps some good aligned "monsters" could help, but maybe only the bad ones come over?

Divine classes would have to actually adhere to religious tenets to get spells and... whoops! we have several religions that follow the same god but only one of those is actually going to get spells (Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right...)

Weapons would be masterwork (almost all) but that's not going to help you against something that is immune or has significant DR.

So, if the monsters all suddenly appeared (say they plane shifted over en masse as the two universes overlapped) that initial wave would cripple modern society. After that, what was left of humanity would retreat to what easily defensible locations they had (Manhattan island, for example) and either try to retake the planet or slowly get starved/beaten out of existence.

I'm sure there's a truckload of novels that cover this dystopian future.

[Holybushman]

Sports such as wrestling and judo would fade away because no one can figure out how to grapple.

[NenkotaMoon]

That is implying that we are bringing mechanics as well which check may be for some.

[Wheldrake]

Oh! Oh! I know this one.

Sam & Dean Winchester fight D&D monsters almost every week. Plus, there are all those overarching conspiracies. One big vote for Supernatural!

Then there are Kim Harrison's Dead Witch Walking novels. Great stuff for fantasy in the modern age.

But these sort of questions go way back, all the way back to Gary Gygax's "Sturmgeschutz and Sorcery" in Strategic Review in (IIRC) 1975. Not exactly modern-day 2016 weaponry, but WW2 is pretty close.

Or course all that begs the question of how oddly firearms are modelled in PF. They aren't really dangerous and deadly enough, are they? But, then again, if they were, they would throw game balance even further out the window.

On the other, other hand, folks so often complain that "martials don't get nice things"... well, a few AK47s and RPG rounds would go a long way towards evening the playing field with those pesky wizards. <g>

[Rothlis]

The Gold Sovereign wrote:

Rothlis wrote:

Personally I look forward to being able to teleport to the places I want to go do we get to choose classes or do we randomly gain class levels if we can choose I choose wizard if we get random classes I would probably end up a human expert with at least 3 ranks in, drive, knowledge geography, and survival with a skill focus feat in at least one of these skills given my history

Instead of choosing a class, you would probably need to learn how to be a wizard, a cleric, a fighter, etc.

If that's the case then me turning into a wizard seems like a sure thing I would probably be self taught though and I would still have 3 lvls in expert even then bummer it sounds like a bad multiclass but still I feel like I would have something like 25 hp at least

[Goth Guru]

Look also at Torchwood and Special Unit 2.
It could even look like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdgQj7xcDJo

In another topic, I suggested that a tachyonic microscope might detect the good or evil subatomic particles in outsider DNA. That and other magic tech would cause a mad scramble between Heaven and Hell. Expose the enemy and win.

[thejeff]

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

That'd be an incredibly bleak future. Consider that any arcane classes would start at 1st level (or higher than first as martial, but have to retrain). There'd be no spell books to learn from, so everyone would be learning from scratch. Perhaps some good aligned "monsters" could help, but maybe only the bad ones come over?

Divine classes would have to actually adhere to religious tenets to get spells and... whoops! we have several religions that follow the same god but only one of those is actually going to get spells (Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right...)

Weapons would be masterwork (almost all) but that's not going to help you against something that is immune or has significant DR.

So, if the monsters all suddenly appeared (say they plane shifted over en masse as the two universes overlapped) that initial wave would cripple modern society. After that, what was left of humanity would retreat to what easily defensible locations they had (Manhattan island, for example) and either try to retake the planet or slowly get starved/beaten out of existence.

I'm sure there's a truckload of novels that cover this dystopian future.

But in keeping with the PF approach, by the time the survivors regroup, they'll all be high level and properly equipped with looted gear.

[slachance6]

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

That'd be an incredibly bleak future. Consider that any arcane classes would start at 1st level (or higher than first as martial, but have to retrain). There'd be no spell books to learn from, so everyone would be learning from scratch. Perhaps some good aligned "monsters" could help, but maybe only the bad ones come over?

Divine classes would have to actually adhere to religious tenets to get spells and... whoops! we have several religions that follow the same god but only one of those is actually going to get spells (Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right...)

What you said about all arcane classes starting at 1st level is probably true for wizards, but not sorcerers. I find it hard to believe that every single sorcerer on Golarion is 1st level when their powers manifest and has the potential to reach 20th level. Since sorcery is innate, some sorcerers are probably born more powerful than others.

Also, what you said about religions, what do you mean? Are you trying to incorporate your personal beliefs or something? Why would the Jews receive spells but not the Christians? I don't know a ton about how divine magic works in Pathfinder exactly, but I would guess that there are multiple aspects or traditions of worship for a given god, and both would have prayers answered. (In my own head-canon, divine magic is not granted by sentient, tangible beings, but the magical energies of collective conscience and faith, although almost no one knows this. I feel like that would work for this scenario.)

[Scythia]

People expect social workers to perform miracles already, so I'd look forward to my divine spell list. :P

[Wszebor Uriev]

slachance6 wrote:

What you said about all arcane classes starting at 1st level is probably true for wizards, but not sorcerers. I find it hard to believe that every single sorcerer on Golarion is 1st level when their powers manifest and has the potential to reach 20th level. Since sorcery is innate, some sorcerers are probably born more powerful than others.

You still have to start at 1st level. Them's the rules! (unless we're living in a homebrew universe. Oh, the horror!)

slachance6 wrote:

Also, what you said about religions, what do you mean? Are you trying to incorporate your personal beliefs or something? Why would the Jews receive spells but not the Christians?

That.. was a joke. Wow. Calm down. I just picked Judaism out of a hat of the big 3. The point was that in a universe where deities actually bequeathed powers to their followers, it becomes pretty obvious who's doing the right thing because they get the spell slots filled. You can say "I'm a paladin of Iomedae and she told me to burn down all the orphanages" but I doubt very much you'd get spells from her. So think all of the denominations and sects that exist. Then consider how they differ - some mildly, some not-so-much. Now imagine if you could demonstrably show which sects had divine approval through daily spells granted. I think there would be a corresponding reduction in religious variety once certain denominations (not saying who - not going there) stopped getting spells.

[Wszebor Uriev]

thejeff wrote:

But in keeping with the PF approach, by the time the survivors regroup, they'll all be high level and properly equipped with looted gear.

I look forward to "Assembly line magical items" The new Ford Bastard Sword +2, now with defending action.. and mauve armrests!

[thejeff]

slachance6 wrote:

Also, what you said about religions, what do you mean? Are you trying to incorporate your personal beliefs or something? Why would the Jews receive spells but not the Christians? I don't know a ton about how divine magic works in Pathfinder exactly, but I would guess that there are multiple aspects or traditions of worship for a given god, and both would have prayers answered. (In my own head-canon, divine magic is not granted by sentient, tangible beings, but the magical energies of collective conscience and faith, although almost no one knows this. I feel like that would work for this scenario.)

I think he's saying that the differences between the religions are significant enough that only one (and probably not all versions of that one) are close enough to what their one and only god intended to receive magic. I read his "Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right..." as a joke about which one that would be.

Personally, I think he's wrong - it would be the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912. :)

I'd find it very difficult to reconcile how divine magic works in PF with real world religion. The approach to gods is far too different. The deities in PF acknowledge each other and don't claim to be the only real one. Nor do they have the same level of conflict between different sects of their worshippers. (That one group of Saranrae's that's gone astray being something of an exception.)
Modern earth developing divine magic would either have to work on the not actually granted by gods scenario you suggest or it would quickly become clear what religion was actually real assuming one was.

It would be interesting if, by and large, traditional religions didn't grant their clergy magic, but new upstart "gods" more like PF deities started appearing and granting such spells. Would everyone switch to worshipping them or would the current religions denounce them as false, pretender gods - especially if they're not even making claims to being creators or arbiters or morality or most of what we normally think of when it comes to God.

[slachance6]

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

You still have to start at 1st level. Them's the rules! (unless we're living in a homebrew universe. Oh, the horror!)

I'm guessing that this isn't completely serious, but still, just because something is true for most player characters doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Just because player characters start at 1st level (which isn't true in all games) doesn't mean that everyone in the universe has the stats of a 1st-level character when they start adventuring or discover their powers or what have you. Just because all the player characters use 15 point buy doesn't mean that every NPC is built on 15 point buy.

The assumption that sorcerers are 1st level when their powers manifest is only there for relative game balance, and only concerns characters in the very small demographic of that particular adventuring party. Sure, there's nothing that says sorcerers will never start above 1st level, but there's nothing saying that they all start at 1st level either, so it's really just up to what the DM says makes more sense. And I personally say that it makes sense that, say, someone who has just directly been granted power by a demon lord could start as a mid-to-high level sorcerer, while someone who traces their power to a very distant fey ancestor would probably start at 1st level when he or she discovers his or her abilities.

[thejeff]

Even if they start at 1st, those that survive the first few weeks won't be 1st anymore.

[Bandw2]

i'm seeing a lot of "we're all going to die"

but in reality, no one wants to shake the boat. Magic would be understood very rapidly due to these fears. Then when it's understood the fears will subside and magic will be integrated. it would have to be an extinction level event to overpower the military, I mean enough where if every single human had a gun it still wouldn't matter.

I also don't "buy" cult of personality happening. It would also be a pretty big fear, CIA and FBI would be constantly looking for these and breaking them up, using their own magical counter measures such as spells that force you to tell the truth etc. remember this isn't golarion, the people most capable of mass producing huge DC spell scrolls would be the major world powers. the FBI and CIA would have all their information exchanged under that aura of truth or whatever, cast at a huge DC, along with other measures to stop charming and domination.

China or North Korea,etc, might exploit the magic though, but we'd actually probably be willing to sanction them over this even with our trade deals.

religions would probably get a boost, bu they'll go from being faith based and based on who can do what. They'll basically turn into corporations, governments or third party magic suppliers pretty quickly in exchange they just have to try to proselytize people. People also would see the benefit of being good and you getting sweet magic and being twice as good for society. being good before was purely selfless but now you can be nice to people and you will prosper. Evil demon cults would remain cults in size, and also be hunted down by the CIA and FBI, like they'll have fine tuned their capability to detect magical disturbances by the time cults start figuring out they can also summon demons.

as for random people having magic such as sorcerers, frankly this goes anywhere from them probably being left alone so long as they don't do anything, to being prime recruits for various things. I think in general people would consider them "gifted" but some cultural jealousy will be there. depends on how many people are sorcerers.

[Harakani]

While it would probably be a disaster, depending on exactly how it rolled out it could actually be great.
Historically humans have done quite well when they can unite against a demonised enemy. Not much effort to demonise demons - and a lot of monsters would be similarly easy.
If there is a Worldwound in Antarctica... a genuine gate through which alien demons were trying to conquer the earth... humanity would unite so fast your head would spin.
That might buy the time and good will to have all these new religious leaders to put aside their differences - a lot of religions have 'demons', so there's some common ground there.

In terms of magic, remember that Pathfinder is still stuck at the 85% of people are farmers, and education is expensive. That means there is a very small proportion of people able to learn unusual skills like smithing and spellcasting.
Conversely in our world something like 1% of people are farmers. Imagine Open Source Spellbooks!

The material component conversion cost is an interesting question. The modern would has economies of scale the ancient world does not. On the other hand certain things are inherently rare. Then again If panda bear ears turned out to be critical, expect us to start farming and/or cloning them. The spell Blood Money would be a game changer.

A lot of our tech is inherently immune to mind control (having no mind) and could be put to horrendous use. The reason we don't have fully autonomous HMG UAVs to drop into a "no blue forces" zone like the Worldwound is NOT a technical issue. LET ALONE trying to stop a nuclear weapon!
A lot of mind control can be avoided by simply having people monitored - and it is pretty obvious who the targets would be. "Some guy just walked into the White House and mind controlled the president. CODE OMEGA!"

A game changer would be Detect Evil. "Sorry Bob, you detect as evil now." Either Bob will have a crisis of conscience, or you know Bob is dangerous in a way that most governments would kill to know.

[Tacticslion]

But only if he's level five or higher or has associations with an evil deity!

Wait, no, you're super-correct...

;D

[Cole Deschain]

Bandw2 wrote:

i'm seeing a lot of "we're all going to die"

but in reality, no one wants to shake the boat.

The demons pouring the hole in reality in the Antarctic posited by the OP certainly would.

The demons ranging from easily machine-gunned hordes of dretches to beings which can assume perfectly human form (either through possession or shapeshifting), become invisible, teleport, and so forth, well before humans have even figured out that they can perform magic as well.

[Scythia]

As far as divine magic serving as evidence of the divine... Don't forget you can be a cleric of a concept or an ideal. A particularly fervent atheistic rationalist could still use divine magic powered by belief in logic and reason.

[Harakani]

prd wrote:

...but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting...

There's every chance the worldwound doesn't know the planet gets better than the Antarctica.

They're also going to have to travel the long way.
Shadow Demon is pretty fast at 40ft. Antarctica is HUGE. AT that speed, 24 hours/day, it would take 3 days to get from the middle to the coastline. Best case it'd take another day and a half to hit anything but water. It'd probably take more like 4-8 days, and could result in missing everything until it hits the arctic.
17km.h is terrifyingly fast in the medieval era. Not so impressive now.

That buys humanity time - and, of course, satellite surveillance means there's a decent chance that we'll know about them before they know about us. It's going to look like an alien invasion.

Someone sends a squad in, and a lone marine manages to call in a strike - even non-nuclear this would be game ending. Unlike Golarion Earth can pretty much hit the worldwound with a nuke. The world can hit that area with a nuclear weapon every minute of every day for ten days. Stretched out to every half hour (at random) we could do almost a year - long enough to buy time. Also, the demons might give up "it oscillates between a desolate ice-waste and utter destruction" doesn't sound like a great place, and they need not even have seen their first human.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Last time this was addressed was in a certain AP adventure.

For a more light-hearted take, there is the module a friend of mine got published in Dragon 100,, where adventurers are sent to recover the Hammer of Cuthbert from 1980's London. Where one of the possible encounters was a blue police box.

[QuidEst]

One Worldwound nuke issue is that we don't have the kind of necessary wards in place to prevent and demons that come in from quickly using their at-will teleportation. That's plot-level magic, and without a GM to arbitrate, I wouldn't want to assume anything like plot magic, custom magic items, or spell research.

[The Sideromancer]

QuidEst wrote:

One Worldwound nuke issue is that we don't have the kind of necessary wards in place to prevent and demons that come in from quickly using their at-will teleportation. That's plot-level magic, and without a GM to arbitrate, I wouldn't want to assume anything like plot magic, custom magic items, or spell research.

It's been pointed out that attempts at teleportation lead to an awful lot of "What the heck is a Manhatten?" scenarios.

[MrCharisma]

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Divine classes would have to actually adhere to religious tenets to get spells and... whoops! we have several religions that follow the same god but only one of those is actually going to get spells (Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right...)

Actually I see that more as different religions prioritising different domains. Judaism, Christianity, Islam & Mormonism (& others I'm sure) would all worship the same deity, but their worship takes different forms. Community, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Nobility, Sun, War & Weather domains all seem like good choices to me (LINK - I didn't bother checking subdomains). I'm sure other people would come up with a different list, but you can see that you could have a huge number of different faiths worshipping the same god & getting different things from it.

Scythia wrote:

Don't forget you can be a cleric of a concept or an ideal. A particularly fervent atheistic rationalist could still use divine magic powered by belief in logic and reason.

Hahaha! That's awesome!

"I can walk on water & heal the sick and I don't even believe in god! ... And I can do it while wearing Full Plate Armour so you know I'm not a wizard!!"

[QuidEst]

The Sideromancer wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

One Worldwound nuke issue is that we don't have the kind of necessary wards in place to prevent and demons that come in from quickly using their at-will teleportation. That's plot-level magic, and without a GM to arbitrate, I wouldn't want to assume anything like plot magic, custom magic items, or spell research.

It's been pointed out that attempts at teleportation lead to an awful lot of "What the heck is a Manhatten?" scenarios.

I'm thinking more along the lines of rapid teleport-as-far-as-you-can-see attempts. Normally, I doubt demons would be interested, but now that we've tempted them with the prospect of getting nukes…

[quibblemuch]

I'd like to take this opportunity to lobby the genetically modified food industry to finally end world hunger by cross-breeding a troll and a pig.

EDIT: After posting, I realized that is culturally insensitive. A troll and any plant creature would do the trick just as well, and not violate virtually any taboos or ethoses.

EDIT 2: Unless Ents are a thing. The last thing we need is an Entmoot...

[The Sideromancer]

quibblemuch wrote:

I'd like to take this opportunity to lobby the genetically modified food industry to finally end world hunger by cross-breeding a troll and a pig.

EDIT: After posting, I realized that is culturally insensitive. A troll and any plant creature would do the trick just as well, and not violate virtually any taboos or ethoses.

EDIT 2: Unless Ents are a thing. The last thing we need is an Entmoot...

Eh, if one starts, we'll have time to change policies.

[quibblemuch]

The Sideromancer wrote:

quibblemuch wrote:

I'd like to take this opportunity to lobby the genetically modified food industry to finally end world hunger by cross-breeding a troll and a pig.

EDIT: After posting, I realized that is culturally insensitive. A troll and any plant creature would do the trick just as well, and not violate virtually any taboos or ethoses.

EDIT 2: Unless Ents are a thing. The last thing we need is an Entmoot...

Eh, if one starts, we'll have time to change policies.

I don't know... I've sat in on policy meetings... Entmoots feel brisk by comparison.

Now that I think further about it though, someone clearly has already spliced troll DNA into a plant--it's the only explanation for kudzu...

[MrCharisma]

Tacticslion wrote:

Technically, from a strictly "useful" standpoint, create water is superior (infinite "free" power, elimination of death by thirst)...

Actually Create Water would be more about stopping the spread of disease. In third world countries diarrhea is a major concern. The best way to treat it is to get rest & drink plenty of water, but if the only source of water contains bacteria that are causing the diarrhea then you're never going to get better & pretty soon you die of dehydration.

Even if only one in a Million people was granted divine casting abilities there would still be over seven thousand people with access to this orison.

Imagine a disaster relief group where one person on staff had the ability to use create water. Even as a level 1 cleric they can create 2 gallons of water per round (6 seconds). That's 20 gallons per minute. That's 1200 gallons in an hour (or 4542 Liters). According to a very brief google search, the average adult needs to drink about half a gallon of water per day. That means one person can create enough drinking water for 2400 people in only an hour (That's seriously way better than I thought it would be ... maybe someone should check my facts/maths).

EDIT: Oh and yes I agree Prestidigitation would be amazing, but I think it would be more personal. Unless everyone can use it cheaply and easily I don't see it having the same far-reaching impact.

[thejeff]

MrCharisma wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

Technically, from a strictly "useful" standpoint, create water is superior (infinite "free" power, elimination of death by thirst)...

Actually Create Water would be more about stopping the spread of disease. In third world countries diarrhea is a major concern. The best way to treat it is to get rest & drink plenty of water, but if the only source of water contains bacteria that are causing the diarrhea then you're never going to get better & pretty soon you die of dehydration.

Even if only one in a Million people was granted divine casting abilities there would still be over seven thousand people with access to this orison.

Imagine a disaster relief group where one person on staff had the ability to use create water. Even as a level 1 cleric they can create 2 gallons of water per round (6 seconds). That's 20 gallons per minute. That's 1200 gallons in an hour (or 4542 Liters). According to a very brief google search, the average adult needs to drink about half a gallon of water per day. That means one person can create enough drinking water for 2400 people in only an hour (That's seriously way better than I thought it would be ... maybe someone should check my facts/maths).

EDIT: Oh and yes I agree Prestidigitation would be amazing, but I think it would be more personal. Unless everyone can use it cheaply and easily I don't see it having the same far-reaching impact.

In a lot of places, Purify Food and Drink would be better. Stops disease just as well and gets you more per casting.

Doesn't help in the deserts, but if it's just about contaminated water...

[Bloodrealm]

MrCharisma wrote:

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

Divine classes would have to actually adhere to religious tenets to get spells and... whoops! we have several religions that follow the same god but only one of those is actually going to get spells (Sorry Christians, turns out the Jews were right...)

Actually I see that more as different religions prioritising different domains. Judaism, Christianity, Islam & Mormonism (& others I'm sure) would all worship the same deity, but their worship takes different forms. Community, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Nobility, Sun, War & Weather domains all seem like good choices to me (LINK - I didn't bother checking subdomains). I'm sure other people would come up with a different list, but you can see that you could have a huge number of different faiths worshipping the same god & getting different things from it.

Scythia wrote:

Don't forget you can be a cleric of a concept or an ideal. A particularly fervent atheistic rationalist could still use divine magic powered by belief in logic and reason.

Hahaha! That's awesome!

"I can walk on water & heal the sick and I don't even believe in god! ... And I can do it while wearing Full Plate Armour so you know I'm not a wizard!!"

Don't forget Death. Most modern widely-practiced religions would use the Death domain, especially with the incredible emphasis on the afterlife.

[MrCharisma]

thejeff wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

Technically, from a strictly "useful" standpoint, create water is superior (infinite "free" power, elimination of death by thirst)...

Actually Create Water would be more about stopping the spread of disease. In third world countries diarrhea is a major concern. The best way to treat it is to get rest & drink plenty of water, but if the only source of water contains bacteria that are causing the diarrhea then you're never going to get better & pretty soon you die of dehydration.

Even if only one in a Million people was granted divine casting abilities there would still be over seven thousand people with access to this orison.

Imagine a disaster relief group where one person on staff had the ability to use create water. Even as a level 1 cleric they can create 2 gallons of water per round (6 seconds). That's 20 gallons per minute. That's 1200 gallons in an hour (or 4542 Liters). According to a very brief google search, the average adult needs to drink about half a gallon of water per day. That means one person can create enough drinking water for 2400 people in only an hour (That's seriously way better than I thought it would be ... maybe someone should check my facts/maths).

EDIT: Oh and yes I agree Prestidigitation would be amazing, but I think it would be more personal. Unless everyone can use it cheaply and easily I don't see it having the same far-reaching impact.

In a lot of places, Purify Food and Drink would be better. Stops disease just as well and gets you more per casting.

Doesn't help in the deserts, but if it's just about contaminated water...

Ooh good catch. Didn't think of that one. Doesn't let you bring your own water, but if they have their own water-source 8 gallons per round is better than 2 gallons per round (equals enough drinking water for 9600 people for one day, and it only takes 1 hour).

Also those are the numbers for a level 1 cleric. At level 20 cleric can spend an hour making enough water for 48 000 people, or or spend an hour purifying enough water for 192 000 people... and that's in 1 hour.

Actually, this is really going to change how I play games from now on. I know people always talk about how powerful create water is, but seriously! In 6 hours a level 20 cleric can purify enough water to keep over 1 million people alive for a day. THAT'S POWER!

[MrCharisma]

Bloodrealm wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Actually I see that more as different religions prioritising different domains. Judaism, Christianity, Islam & Mormonism (& others I'm sure) would all worship the same deity, but their worship takes different forms. Community, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Nobility, Sun, War & Weather domains all seem like good choices to me

Don't forget Death. Most modern widely-practiced religions would use the Death domain, especially with the incredible emphasis on the afterlife.

Derp =P Yep agreed

[lemeres]

Incorporeal might be relatively easy to take care of. They are susceptible to energy.

That can be hard to get a hold of in game without magic, but I wonder how long it takes before someone figures out incendiary grenades are effective. Even if you are dealing with something fire resistant, I would loath to imagine what a carpet bombing does.

Admittedly, it would be VERY scorched earth, but it is more than possible to take care of them... after a few repeats (assuming they go underground- on the plus side, with everything burned, it is easier to spot them when they duck their heads out).

Even high DR creatures like dragons (Which use DR magic, which is hard for mundanes) might end up rather susceptible to cannons.

Killing the threats, overall, is not the problem. It is the breakdown, as leaders get assassinated. It would be possible to continue with militias, but it will lead to a LOT of confusion. Which...leaves people open to suggestions by 'helpful people' that are 'willing to offer solutions.... for a deal'. Ideological threats seem like a much larger threat as power structures break and people get desperate.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

lemeres wrote:

Incorporeal might be relatively easy to take care of. They are susceptible to energy.

That can be hard to get a hold of in game without magic, but I wonder how long it takes before someone figures out incendiary grenades are effective. Even if you are dealing with something fire resistant, I would loath to imagine what a carpet bombing does.

Admittedly, it would be VERY scorched earth, but it is more than possible to take care of them... after a few repeats (assuming they go underground- on the plus side, with everything burned, it is easier to spot them when they duck their heads out).

Even high DR creatures like dragons (Which use DR magic, which is hard for mundanes) might end up rather susceptible to cannons.

Killing the threats, overall, is not the problem. It is the breakdown, as leaders get assassinated. It would be possible to continue with militias, but it will lead to a LOT of confusion. Which...leaves people open to suggestions by 'helpful people' that are 'willing to offer solutions.... for a deal'. Ideological threats seem like a much larger threat as power structures break and people get desperate.

Plus incorporeal would have a hard time with modern walls given the amount of electricity running through them.

[Arbane the Terrible]

It occurs to me this setting could swiftly become Shadowrun without the cybernetics.

Harakani wrote:

Imagine Open Source Spellbooks!

We better hope the world runs on PF rules, not Call of Cthulhu's, or some idiot's going to put Summon Azathoth on the Internet and physically destroy the planet.

Even without Create Apocalypse being a first level spell, consider the damage that someone could do with first-level spells like Charm Person, Beguiling Gift, or Murderous Command.

Expect anything resembling Freedom Of Speech to get locked down on hard. (And just imagine what Divination magic could do for law-enforcement! Department of Pre-Crime, here we come!)

So for the Shadowpocalypse, barring some house-rules saying electricity and bombs are magic, we're screwed.

d20pfsrd wrote:

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

[GM Rednal]

...There times where I want to write a level-by-level analysis of spells - starting with the CRB - and what precautions against them a given settlement might have. XD

[Arbane the Terrible]

GM Rednal wrote:

...There times where I want to write a level-by-level analysis of spells - starting with the CRB - and what precautions against them a given settlement might have. XD

Please do! (Aside from this, in the game I'm currently in Our Heroes are setting up an estate, and I know our magic defenses are like a sieve...)

[Jader7777]

It would just be chaos for such a long time. Every single element of the world would be melted.

Imagine if multinational corporations had the power of level 20 wizards; They would terraform the world to destruction thinking they are doing good.

Imagine if Greenpeace had the power of hundreds of level 20 druids; They would terraform the world to destruction thinking they are doing good.

Imagine if boybands had the power of hundreds of level 20 bards...

[Lorila Sorita]

All these negative views. There is one pretty sweet thing about it though. In pathfinder everyone is basically immortal. Even if you die the gods are 100% proven and real, and so are afterlives. If you die you just go to heaven and hang out, and if you got friends they can just bring you back. Also magic is pretty cool and anyone can do it with a bit of practice. Even if your a complete moron you can buy items to boost your intelligence and then learn magic. Get high enough level and you can basically do anything you want. Heck in pathfinder people can even become gods them self.

[Klorox]

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

thejeff wrote:

But in keeping with the PF approach, by the time the survivors regroup, they'll all be high level and properly equipped with looted gear.

I look forward to "Assembly line magical items" The new Ford Bastard Sword +2, now with defending action.. and mauve armrests!

I doubt assembly line made items quality as Masterwork ;)

[Vidmaster7]

Urban Adventures from the D20 modern line had some cool stuff. Gnoll pimp being on of my favs.

[Bandw2]

so yeah, remember how we had chemical weapons and then didn't use them for a whole 6-7 years of world war? yeah that's my take on why magic probably wouldn't cause us to go crazy and kill each other.

also nukes for 70 odd years now.

Harakani wrote:

In terms of magic, remember that Pathfinder is still stuck at the 85% of people are farmers, and education is expensive. That means there is a very small proportion of people able to learn unusual skills like smithing and spellcasting.
Conversely in our world something like 1% of people are farmers. Imagine Open Source Spellbooks!

more like >youtube videos< about how to summon familiars but yeah.

how to cast prestidigitation to clean your clothes in 5 seconds, ads on websites showing up...

"necromancer's hate her, this mom has found a way to temporarily boost your bodies endurance."

Harakani wrote:

The material component conversion cost is an interesting question. The modern would has economies of scale the ancient world does not. On the other hand certain things are inherently rare. Then again If panda bear ears turned out to be critical, expect us to start farming and/or cloning them. The spell Blood Money would be a game changer.

more likely... everyone learns eschew materials, since it's significantly easier than finding supplies.

Harakani wrote:

A game changer would be Detect Evil. "Sorry Bob, you detect as evil now." Either Bob will have a crisis of conscience, or you know Bob is dangerous in a way that most governments would kill to know.

detecting as evil will never be a crime in the free world for the same reason it takes us so long to get Al Capone, it's circumstantial evidence at best.

Cole Deschain wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

i'm seeing a lot of "we're all going to die"

but in reality, no one wants to shake the boat.

The demons pouring the hole in reality in the Antarctic posited by the OP certainly would.

The demons ranging from easily machine-gunned hordes of dretches to beings which can assume perfectly human form (either through possession or shapeshifting), become invisible, teleport, and so forth, well before humans have even figured out that they can perform magic as well.

modern jets can fire missiles from outside their spell range... for the smaller ones? Abrams tanks have both anti-personnel and anti-Armour capabilities. Also, most modern military power houses having armies that consist of full automatic firearms with advanced tactics. They would probably employ elastic defense tactics specifically, as that's what you use to stop a blitzkreig by a modern army.

they'd need more demons then we need bullets in which case, then yes EVERYONE is dead, not most of us, all of us, they'd have enough demons to blot out the sun.

as for the second part... this is assuming they know how to be human at all? or that there are enough of them for us to not simply figure out that there's a serial killer in the area? once again, they need like oodles of these things.

Scythia wrote:

As far as divine magic serving as evidence of the divine... Don't forget you can be a cleric of a concept or an ideal. A particularly fervent atheistic rationalist could still use divine magic powered by belief in logic and reason.

great this dude can cast 9th level spells because he's a philosophical political science major. also can;t wait for the communist revolutionaries throwing out mind bullets. I mean they still need a focus right? can;t wait to see that guy brandishing a hammer and sickle and it starts raining fire.*heavy Russian ascent* "Capitalist pigs, today you get your comeuppance".

Harakani wrote:

Someone sends a squad in, and a lone marine manages to call in a strike

I've played enough video games to know the doom guy does not call in strikes.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Intercontinental balístitic missiles are a thing too. We can probably hit the arctic worldwound from the United States.

[Bandw2]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Intercontinental balístitic missiles are a thing too. We can probably hit the arctic worldwound from the United States.

funny thing about ICBMs... hitting the poles is hard... not that we couldn't do it, but our current missiles probably wouldn't do a great job.

if you're wondering why? well the earth rotates, so if you lift off from the surface you have a huge amount of lateral speed, we use this to sling the missiles at the target(or burn against the roation a bit and let the target rotate under you). instead to get to a pole, you;d have to do a full burn against the rotation of the earth at some point, this is true even if we have the missile start orbiting earth and make course corrections from there.

missiles don't fly through the atmosphere the whole way... if they did man we would have no problems getting to the moon and back.

[Bandw2]

MrCharisma wrote:

Tacticslion wrote:

Technically, from a strictly "useful" standpoint, create water is superior (infinite "free" power, elimination of death by thirst)...

Actually Create Water would be more about stopping the spread of disease. In third world countries diarrhea is a major concern. The best way to treat it is to get rest & drink plenty of water, but if the only source of water contains bacteria that are causing the diarrhea then you're never going to get better & pretty soon you die of dehydration.

Even if only one in a Million people was granted divine casting abilities there would still be over seven thousand people with access to this orison.

Imagine a disaster relief group where one person on staff had the ability to use create water. Even as a level 1 cleric they can create 2 gallons of water per round (6 seconds). That's 20 gallons per minute. That's 1200 gallons in an hour (or 4542 Liters). According to a very brief google search, the average adult needs to drink about half a gallon of water per day. That means one person can create enough drinking water for 2400 people in only an hour (That's seriously way better than I thought it would be ... maybe someone should check my facts/maths).

EDIT: Oh and yes I agree Prestidigitation would be amazing, but I think it would be more personal. Unless everyone can use it cheaply and easily I don't see it having the same far-reaching impact.

long term create water usage is actually just a great way to drown the planet... it's not like it'll evaporate into space.

actually... this would be an amazing way to power nations with free energy. This could lead to the post-scarcity society. you create water, then turn it into hydrogen and oxygen, you can then use fission to create any material up to iron on the periodic table.

not to mention gravity fed turbines breaks the law of thermodynamics if possible.

[Bandw2]

Klorox wrote:

Wszebor Uriev wrote:

thejeff wrote:

But in keeping with the PF approach, by the time the survivors regroup, they'll all be high level and properly equipped with looted gear.

I look forward to "Assembly line magical items" The new Ford Bastard Sword +2, now with defending action.. and mauve armrests!

I doubt assembly line made items quality as Masterwork ;)

they're significantly more likely to be masterwork actually when designed to be. most stuff today is designed to break down so the consumer cycle doesn't end. however, when we like assembly line tanks? or other military products? it's top quality.

[MrCharisma]

Bandw2 wrote:

long term create water usage is actually just a great way to drown the planet... it's not like it'll evaporate into space.

Actually ...

Create Water wrote:

This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed.

LINK.

That means if we do use it to power turbines etc all the created water simply disappears back to wherever it came from. And the water we ARE drinking wouldn't be nearly as much as you think. The earth does pick up meteors & things all the time & they don't seem to have much impact on it's mass.

If the World-Wound scenario is a thing, there's probably a lot more excess mass coming through in the form of rampaging demons.

And if we beat back the demons we can just use the world wound as a sewage dump.

[quibblemuch]

"In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"