This question is inspired by the 5 foot step out of grease thread, where people have been discussing what "within" means.
Many people have equated "within" to "into" because where you are going matters, not where you currently are. Sooo..
By the following ability: "The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity" can you enter your opponent's space without provoking?
Within means a medium can roam around any of the 9 squares of a huge creature without provoking. Entering is a different matter. You can 5 ft in, but you still provoke for entering their space.
So are you of the mindset that moving from square A to square B means moving within square A but not square B? Or in this case do you say you are moving within neither square?
Disregarding anything to do with the 5ft step grease thread....
You will definitely provoke for entering the opponents square, as the mouser ability only protects you when leaving or while moving around in their squares. The act of entering another creature's squares provokes, unless you have a special ability that says you don't (which the mouser ability doesn't).
Within means a medium can roam around any of the 9 squares of a huge creature without provoking. Entering is a different matter. You can 5 ft in, but you still provoke for entering their space.So are you of the mindset that moving from square A to square B means moving within square A but not square B? Or in this case do you say you are moving within neither square?
What he's saying is that you're moving out of a threatened square (that just happens to be adjacent) and the rules for tiny creatures entering another creature's space say:
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Which is extrapolated to mean that entering another creature's square always provokes an AoO, unless you acquire some ability that specifically says it doesn't.
need.
to.
move'
diagram
below
pretty
Wolf
D= dragon
M= Mouser in dragons square
Once the mouser has, somehow, gotten here, the Mouser in a dragons space can move from
DDDD
DDDD
MDDD
to
DDDM
DDDD
DDDD
Without drawing an AOO from the dragon without any other checks. (which may be useful if he wants to just grab the cup and go.
You will definitely provoke for entering the opponents square, as the mouser ability only protects you when leaving or while moving around in their squares. The act of entering another creature's squares provokes, unless you have a special ability that says you don't (which the mouser ability doesn't).
The ability most mousers use to get into the square does protect against the aoo
Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Indeed BigNorseWolf, once the Mouser has entered a monster space it wont provoke anymore AoO (from that monster for moving) and can move about freely.
The mousers abilities protect from an aoo when
Leaving the critters space
Moving around the critters space
and
Entering the critters space when they swing at you and miss using underfoot assault.
The way I see it is that moving into someone's square provokes for two reasons.
1. You are moving out of a threatened space. If you 5 foot step, you avoid this AOO.
2. You are moving into their space. If you have the ability to "move within their space without provoking an AOO," you avoid this one as well.
For the above reasons I still think the pertinent issue here is what I said before, about moving from A to B.
The way I see it is that moving into someone's square provokes for two reasons.
No. Absolutely not. Not as you see it not maybe not if you squint at the rules flat out NO.
1. You are moving out of a threatened space. If you 5 foot step, you avoid this AOO.
2. You are moving into their space. If you have the ability to "move within their space without provoking an AOO, you avoid this one as well.
For the above reasons I still think the pertinent issue here is what I said before, about moving from A to B.
You are only reading part of the ability that does X, not reading the part where it does Y, and then concluding not y.
Mousers underfoot assault: This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Monkey syle: (which the faq specifically calls out as the ability that doesn't provoke) This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The way I see it is that moving into someone's square provokes for two reasons.No. Absolutely not. Not as you see it not maybe not if you squint at the rules flat out NO.
1. You are moving out of a threatened space. If you 5 foot step, you avoid this AOO.
2. You are moving into their space. If you have the ability to "move within their space without provoking an AOO, you avoid this one as well.
For the above reasons I still think the pertinent issue here is what I said before, about moving from A to B.
You are only reading part of the ability that does X, not reading the part where it does Y, and then concluding not y.
Mousers underfoot assault: This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Monkey syle: (which the faq specifically calls out as the ability that doesn't provoke) This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
What about the premise do you disagree with?
What about the premise do you disagree with?
You're using a complete non sequitor.
Superman has super strength
You need heat vision to weld the oil tanker shut.
Therefore superman cannot weld the oil tanker shut.
The mouser has a specific ability to enter a square under some conditions without drawing an AOO. The FAQ specifically says that those still work.
What about the premise do you disagree with?
You're using a complete non sequitor.
Superman has super strength
You need heat vision to weld the oil tanker shut.
Therefore superman cannot weld the oil tanker shut.The mouser has a specific ability to enter a square under some conditions without drawing an AOO. The FAQ specifically says that those still work.
I do not know which faq you are referring to. The ability to move 5 feet as an imediate action is not useless if you can 5 foot in, because it preserves your 5 foot step.
Is the issue you find that the moving 5 feet as an imediate action would be useless if you can 5 foot in?
Is the issue you find that the moving 5 feet as an imediate action would be useless if you can 5 foot in?
No. the issue is that the ability specifically says it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity: black and white, clear as crystal, and you're making it provoke an attack of opportunity anyway. The only justification i can see for that is you keep quoting irrelevant parts of the ability that have nothing to do with the AOO instead of the part that says you don't get an AOO.
Faq on tiny creatures entering spaces here
Tiny and smaller creatures: In the section on Tiny and smaller creatures, it says that entering a creature’s space provokes an attack of opportunity, but typically 5-foot steps don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If a Tiny or smaller creature took a 5-foot step into a creature’s space, would it provoke an attack of opportunity?
Yes. Even with a 5-foot step, a Tiny or smaller creature entering a creature’s space provokes an attack of opportunity (unless it is using a more specific ability to avoid the attack of opportunity such as the Monkey Shine feat). This doesn’t mean that a Tiny or smaller creature entering a creature’s space and moving out of a threatened square with a move action provokes two attacks of opportunity from that creature, for the same reason that moving out of multiple of a creature’s threatened squares in the same move action doesn’t provoke two attacks of opportunity.
Emphasis mine. Monkey shine has the same wording as the mousers ability.
The way I see it is that moving into someone's square provokes for two reasons.
1. You are moving out of a threatened space. If you 5 foot step, you avoid this AOO.
2. You are moving into their space. If you have the ability to "move within their space without provoking an AOO," you avoid this one as well.
For the above reasons I still think the pertinent issue here is what I said before, about moving from A to B.
No. This is why the Mouser Underfoot Assault ability says:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
If the next part of the ability was intended to allow the mouser to enter without provoking there wouldn't be much point in the above part of the ability to exist, especially the part where it says that the movement doesn't provoke (since under your opinion the next part of the ability make it so it doesn't provoke).
No entering a space is different from "moving within" a space.
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These carry on threads are getting ridiculous. Next we will see a thread about how you need to make an acrobatics check when you make a reflex save in grease as reflex saves require you to dodge which is clearly movement. After that will be a thread on how you need to make an acrobatics check in grease if you breath or have a heartbeat (movement).
Two different contexts between grease and mouser, can quite easily give rise to seemingly different answers:
Moving from without a space to within another space cannot be, by definition, moving within a space - as you started without.
Moving from within a space to without a space necessarily includes moving within that space - as you are, you know, starting within that space.
Moving from without a space to within another space cannot be, by definition, moving within a space - as you started without.
Which is completely irrelevant, because the ability to move within a space is NOT the ability that lets you enter it without an AOO, the ability that lets you enter the space when swung at is what lets you enter without an AOO.