Does anyone see issues with a Paladin of Damerrich turning into a Gray Warden?
There is nothing inherently evil about a Gray Warden and Damerrich is the God of Executions
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If you mean Gray Gardener (I avoid using d20 usually as it strips out the world connections which leads to more and more problems), then that would be a resounding no.
They may not all be outiright Evil aligned, but I can safely there isn't any Good Aligned Gardeners.
A don't see Paladin working with them at all, let alone the being endorsed by the Empyreal Lord of just executions.
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Nope. Take the Oath against Undead and go for it.
A lot of the Gray Garderners are actually Necromancers so that wouldn't really fly.
Unless you're thinking the same thing I thought at first and OP was talking about the organization from Dragon Age, which I think Oath against Savagery might fit better.
I'm speaking on "Gray Gardeners" and why would a necromancer be a "Gray Gardener" when the whole focus is to keep things dead? What sourcebook are you referencing?
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Outside of the Tales novels it's sprinkled here and there throughout all the books involving them.
What did you think they did with all the bodies? And they don't keep things dead, they indiscriminately execute and seal souls in the guillotines. They like to make sure the souls stay trapped and unable to head to the afterlife.
Outside of the Tales novels it's sprinkled here and there throughout all the books involving them.
What did you think they did with all the bodies? And they don't keep things dead, they indiscriminately execute and seal souls in the guillotines. They like to make sure the souls stay trapped and unable to head to the afterlife.
I think this is where they (and I) get the idea that they want things to stay dead.
True Death (Su)
At 10th level, anyone slain by a Gray Gardener becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Attempts to use raise dead or similar magic to resurrect such a creature require a successful DC 25 caster level check, or the spell fails and any material components are wasted.
I'm speaking on "Gray Gardeners" and why would a necromancer be a "Gray Gardener" when the whole focus is to keep things dead? What sourcebook are you referencing?
The thing is that executions in Galt are seldom about justice. It is extremely implausible for a Grey Gardener not to become evil because of the rampant injustice of many Galtan executions.
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Outside of the Tales novels it's sprinkled here and there throughout all the books involving them.
What did you think they did with all the bodies? And they don't keep things dead, they indiscriminately execute and seal souls in the guillotines. They like to make sure the souls stay trapped and unable to head to the afterlife.
I think this is where they (and I) get the idea that they want things to stay dead.
True Death (Su)
At 10th level, anyone slain by a Gray Gardener becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Attempts to use raise dead or similar magic to resurrect such a creature require a successful DC 25 caster level check, or the spell fails and any material components are wasted.
Perhaps, but they got that ability from the Assassin prestige class.
Also, look closely at what it does. It's only against resurrecting someone, it does absolutely nothing to prevent someone getting animated as an undead.
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I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.
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I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.
Yeah, Damey isn't happy one bit. Galt is pretty much completely sacrilegious to him and everything he stands for.
I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.
The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.
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I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.
To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?
To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.
Yeah, she's worshipped a lot in Galt, but she hates the Red Revolution. Her followers refuse to celebrate in All Kings Day. Faithful worship would probably be along the lines of "Please just end this revolution already."
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Yeah, she's worshipped a lot in Galt, but she hates the Red Revolution. Her followers refuse to celebrate in All Kings Day. Faithful worship would probably be along the lines of "Please just end this revolution already."To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.
*nods*
The world Milani and her followers strive for, is a world where she isn't needed.
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To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.
It is stated that Galt is one of her major centers of worship and that her herald was a member of the Red Revolution up until shortly before her death. As it only started about 50 years ago Milani backed it officially until not to long ago if she no longer supports it.
I want to say that it was in Hell's Rebels (specifically in the cleric's entry) that it said she was still going strong with members of the Red Revolution but I don't have the book with me to double check so I might be wrong.
Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.
I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?
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Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?
*nope*
Also Inner Sea Faiths has this to say (as QuidEst pointed out),
"However, Milani’s church does not celebrate All Kings Day, for Milani hates the endless violence wrought by Galt’s Red Revolution."
Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?*nope*
Also Inner Sea Faiths has this to say (as QuidEst pointed out) "However, Milani’s church does not celebrate All Kings Day, for Milani hates the endless violence wrought by Galt’s Red Revolution."
Fair enough. I do wonder how long ago she pulled her support from them? I can see that as a bit of a rude surprise for her followers to get the call to start a revolution and then get told that she no longer supports it within a few years of each other.
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To my knowledge Milani and Iomedae absolutely detest the Eternal Revolution, where did you read that they support it?I would imagine Damerrich is pretty unhappy with the Gray Gardeners, who pervert the intention of an execution (which probably includes sending the soul to its judgement) and often super-execute people without a fair trial. (Prestige class mentions that actual guilt or innocence isn't important, only that they were tried and sentenced.) Since Damerrich's portfolio covers not just executions, but also judiciousness and responsibility.The funny thing though is that that whole mess is still supported by a (Chaotic) Good Demi-Goddess who has the full support of the main Lawful Good Goddess... I fully agree that it is a mess where I can't imagine Good being the driving force but in world that seems to be the case.It is stated that Galt is one of her major centers of worship and that her herald was a member of the Red Revolution up until shortly before her death. As it only started about 50 years ago Milani backed it officially until not to long ago if she no longer supports it.
I want to say that it was in Hell's Rebels (specifically in the cleric's entry) that it said she was still going strong with members of the Red Revolution but I don't have the book with me to double check so I might be wrong.
Her article is in RoW -The Shackled Hut (yeah, I looked in Hell's Rebels first, too XD)
Inner Sea Faiths has this,
This unique outsider (Pathfinder Adventure Path #68: The Shackled Hut 84) has two missions: to attack the powerful enemies of Milani’s church—especially undead who would subjugate the common folk, and conjured outsiders used to strike fear into mortal hearts—and to inspire hope among mortals with the strength to turn against tyrants. Once a mortal ranger serving Milani, she was an early champion of Galt’s Red Revolution when it deposed evil Chelish nobles. Later, when the movement become more about chaos and vengeance, she fought against it instead. She was executed as a Chelish sympathizer with a finnal blade that trapped her soul. Milani plucked the woman’s soul from the artifact and made her a herald. Now the martyred hero keeps her original name secret so her living Galtan relatives do not become targets by association.
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Fair enough. I do wonder how long ago she pulled her support from them? I can see that as a bit of a rude surprise for her followers to get the call to start a revolution and then get told that she no longer supports it within a few years of each other.Also, she's a full on Goddess, not a demigod.I thought she was in the same power category as the Empyreal Lords?*nope*
Also Inner Sea Faiths has this to say (as QuidEst pointed out) "However, Milani’s church does not celebrate All Kings Day, for Milani hates the endless violence wrought by Galt’s Red Revolution."
See my just now previous post :3
It wasn't a rude surprise for her followers at all, she didn't pull the rug out from under them. When it was against Cheliax they were for it, when it became hateful paranoid madness they went against it.
When it all started her followers helped because of their beliefs, when it changed they stopped because it went against their beliefs, not because Milanj told them to stop. Most followers (especially of Chaotic deities) aren't mindless drones.
See my just now previous post :3
It wasn't a rude surprise for her followers at all, she didn't pull the rug out from under them. When it was against Cheliax they were for it, when it became hateful paranoid madness they went against it.
But a change like that is always a matter of degrees, more so when your enemy can literally call the masters of lies and trickery to their aid. If the Grey Gardeners and the Final Blades were used to kill her herald then they would have been around/being made while she was still backing them.
I personally don't like Milani (if you light the fuse you are responsible for the explosion) but I am willing to admit I was wrong about her. No I am more curious.
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See my just now previous post :3
It wasn't a rude surprise for her followers at all, she didn't pull the rug out from under them. When it was against Cheliax they were for it, when it became hateful paranoid madness they went against it.
But a change like that is always a matter of degrees, more so when your enemy can literally call the masters of lies and trickery to their aid. If the Grey Gardeners and the Final Blades were used to kill her herald then they would have been around/being made while she was still backing them.
I personally don't like Milani (if you light the fuse you are responsible for the explosion) but I am willing to admit I was wrong about her. No I am more curious.
Um, no, it says "when it became more about chaos and vengeance", so probably when they started to use the Blades, or even when they started using the executions is when Milani and her followers turned on them.
And a change like that definitely isn't locked into "degrees", especially with the insanity of Galt.
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I personally don't like Milani (if you light the fuse you are responsible for the explosion) but I am willing to admit I was wrong about her.
Milani had nothing to do with 'lighting the fuse' in Galt. That was done by mortal philosophers... paralleling the French (Galt) and American (Andoran) revolutions.
Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
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Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.
Note that all statted Gray Gardeners have been Evil. Not putting an alignment restriction on them, or even just "any Non-Good" was, in my opinion, my mistake.
Um, no, it says "when it became more about chaos and vengeance", so probably when they started to use the Blades, or even when they started using the executions is when Milani and her followers turned on them.
And a change like that definitely isn't locked into "degrees", especially with the insanity of Galt.
The Final Blades were commissioned in the first 2 years of the Red Revolution and in use within 5 years. That is a pretty quick rise and fall. By the wording of it it sounds like the Final Blades were in use while they were still fighting Chelix...
"...Margaery San Trayne created the final blades, which were capable of capturing the souls of the executed, thus preventing any resurrection. Trayne's secondary concern was that the final blades would prevent the souls from falling into the hands of any Chelish devils."
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Um, no, it says "when it became more about chaos and vengeance", so probably when they started to use the Blades, or even when they started using the executions is when Milani and her followers turned on them.
And a change like that definitely isn't locked into "degrees", especially with the insanity of Galt.
The Final Blades were commissioned in the first 2 years of the Red Revolution and in use within 5 years. That is a pretty quick rise and fall. By the wording of it it sounds like the Final Blades were in use while they were still fighting Chelix...
"...Margaery San Trayne created the final blades, which were capable of capturing the souls of the executed, thus preventing any resurrection. Trayne's secondary concern was that the final blades would prevent the souls from falling into the hands of any Chelish devils."
They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.
Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.
Are you under the impression that executioners review the trial transcripts of those sentenced to make sure it passes some sort of plausibility test? Can a Paladin serve as a prison guard if he's not constantly acting as an internal Innocence Project?
Sure, a Paladin would be in trouble if he actually knew someone was innocent. But it's going to be hard to know that without a lot of assumptions regarding investigative resources/truth magic, etc. He says he's innocent before you drop the axe? They all do.
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Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Back on topic since I derailed it: As with all things involving Paladins doing anything even a little gray I would talk to your GM and give them a summary of what you are wanting to do and why. Mechanically I think you are good but I can see fluff killing you.
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Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.Are you under the impression that executioner's review the trial transcripts of those sentenced to make sure it passes some sort of plausibility test? Can a Paladin serve as a prison guard if he's not constantly acting as an internal Innocence Project?
Sure, a Paladin would be in trouble if he actually knew someone was innocent. But it's going to be hard to know that without a lot of assumptions regarding investigative resources/truth magic, etc. He says he's innocent before you drop the axe? They all do.
Remember, we're not talking about a normal legally ordained Executioner, but the bat s#@! axe crazy that is Galt. It's basically a reflavoring of the Assassin's requirement of "kill someone for no reason just because you can".
And yes an actual full on Paladin would do their damnest to make sure their actually locking up and executing the guilty.
They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.
Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.
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They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.
The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.
Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.Note that all statted Gray Gardeners have been Evil. Not putting an alignment restriction on them, or even just "any Non-Good" was, in my opinion, my mistake.
Just because the innocence or otherwise of the victim is irrelevant to the prestige class, doesn't mean it has to be irrelevant for the character. Overseeing a just and proper execution, and only endorsing just and proper executions qualifies you just as well as indiscriminate executions.
I don't see a conflict as long as the character hunts down and only executes those who are actually traitors.|
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Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.Note that all statted Gray Gardeners have been Evil. Not putting an alignment restriction on them, or even just "any Non-Good" was, in my opinion, my mistake.Just because the innocence or otherwise of the victim is irrelevant to the prestige class, doesn't mean it has to be irrelevant for the character. Overseeing a just and proper execution, and only endorsing just and proper executions qualifies you just as well as indiscriminate executions.
I don't see a conflict as long as the character hunts down and only executes those who are actually traitors.
The Gray Garderners don't oversee just proper and just executions though.
I guess a question to the OP, are you playing in Golarion?
The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.
In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.
Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.
Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.Note that all statted Gray Gardeners have been Evil. Not putting an alignment restriction on them, or even just "any Non-Good" was, in my opinion, my mistake.Just because the innocence or otherwise of the victim is irrelevant to the prestige class, doesn't mean it has to be irrelevant for the character. Overseeing a just and proper execution, and only endorsing just and proper executions qualifies you just as well as indiscriminate executions.
I don't see a conflict as long as the character hunts down and only executes those who are actually traitors.The Gray Garderners don't oversee just proper and just executions though.
I guess a question to the OP, are you playing in Golarion?
Notionally they do oversee just executions. All traitors to the cause deserve to die.
...They are often wrong or not especially exacting in determining the truth. That does not prevent there being a Gray Gardener who is a little more particular than the others.
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Do note, no alignment restriction is shown in the Gray Gardener description.
Also, I was more utilizing the class for mechanics, as I would be executing evil things as a Paladin of Damerrich
Actually there kinda is.
The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant.Note that all statted Gray Gardeners have been Evil. Not putting an alignment restriction on them, or even just "any Non-Good" was, in my opinion, my mistake.Just because the innocence or otherwise of the victim is irrelevant to the prestige class, doesn't mean it has to be irrelevant for the character. Overseeing a just and proper execution, and only endorsing just and proper executions qualifies you just as well as indiscriminate executions.
I don't see a conflict as long as the character hunts down and only executes those who are actually traitors.The Gray Garderners don't oversee just proper and just executions though.
I guess a question to the OP, are you playing in Golarion?
Notionally they do oversee just executions. All traitors to the cause deserve to die.
...They are often wrong or not especially exacting in determining the truth. That does not prevent there being a Gray Gardener who is a little more particular than the others.
You and I are operating on two VERY different mindsets if you consider anything the Gray Garderners do as "Just".
Also, the GG don't pick who are executed, or even judge them. They just maintain and operate the methods of execution.
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The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.
Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.
By that logic why doesn't everyone use soul binding to stop their enemies? And no, the souls can't be freed at any time. The blades have to be destroyed to free them. And as Minor Artifacts that ain't easy.
Huh, where'd you read that? I didn't see anything in his Chronicle of the Righteous article.
The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.
Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.
By that logic why doesn't everyone use soul binding to stop their enemies? And no, the souls can't be freed at any time. The blades have to be destroyed to free them. And as Minor Artifacts that ain't easy.
Huh, where'd you read that? I didn't see anything in his Chronicle of the Righteous article.
It is in the locations under Red Rotunda (or whatever it's name is) it says that it is where he executes Demon Lords and other high power Evils. As to the Final Blades... "In addition, at 10th level, a Gray Gardener receives initiation in the secret rituals that can release a soul from a final blade." They can release them at anytime. They just don't normally.
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It is in the locations under Red Rotunda (or whatever it's name is) it says that it is where he executes Demon Lords and other high power Evils. As to the Final Blades... "In addition, at 10th level, a Gray Gardener receives initiation in the secret rituals that can release a soul from...The moment they came up with the Final Blades is when it became more about chaos and vengeance rather than fighting Cheliax, even though they were still fighting Cheliax. The punishment became more important than the freedom.They're ya go, the Milanites (and pretty much every other sane person, turned against the Red Revoloution in 2-5 years since it started.Which would be while they were still fighting Chelix and before "when it became more about chaos and vengeance". That is where I am curious where she drew the line.In a world where your opponent can literally use the souls of the fallen as a weapon against you it makes sense to have a way to stop them from doing so. The souls can also be released from the blades at anytime so from a design point of view you could hold them until the war is over and then release them when it is safe to do so. The Final Blades themselves are a nasty weapon but aren't Evil or even cruel in and of themselves. Hell, a guillotine chop is more humane than a sword cut or knife stab. It is messy but very quick.
Edit: Now that I think of it Damerrich himself actually uses something very similar to the Final Blades. In his entry it says that the stone that he executes enemies on stops them from returning to the plane they came from so that they can't return.
By that logic why doesn't everyone use soul binding to stop their enemies? And no, the souls can't be freed at any time. The blades have to be destroyed to free them. And as Minor Artifacts that ain't easy.
Huh, where'd you read that? I didn't see anything in his Chronicle of the Righteous article.
In the Red Rotunda it just says that's where Demon Lords are executed, it doesn't say anything about trapping their soul or essence.
"In addition, at 10th level, a Gray Gardener receives initiation in the secret rituals that can release a soul from a final blade."
Uh, yeah, only certain 16th+ level characters are privy to how to free trapped souls. That ain't right.
Not to mention it's completely impractical for what you're suggesting they were for. It takes years to transform evil souls into Devils. They weren't doing it to give themselves an edge in the revolution, they did it because they were insane and spiteful.
Notionally they do oversee just executions. All traitors to the cause deserve to die.
...They are often wrong or not especially exacting in determining the truth. That does not prevent there being a Gray Gardener who is a little more particular than the others.
You and I are operating on two VERY different mindsets if you consider anything the Gray Garderners do as "Just".
Also, the GG don't pick who are executed, or even judge them. They just maintain and operate the methods of execution.
I fully agree with you in general. I can however see room for an exceptional individual who only accepts just targets.
Not everything needs to be an absolute.
Uh, yeah, only certain 16th+ level characters are privy to how to free trapped souls. That ain't right.
Not to mention it's completely impractical for what you're suggesting they were for. It takes years to transform evil souls into Devils. They weren't doing it to give themselves an edge in the revolution, they did it because they were insane and spiteful.
Those are the same people who would be using them and all you would need is one to tell how and the secret is out.
Who said you need them to be turned into devils? Moloch literally uses souls as fuel for his war engines and doesn't require them to be his worshipers as his followers can sacrifice someone in his name and into the fires they go. For a more direct route the devils can just let their enemies see what they are doing to the souls of the loved ones as psychological warfare. Devils are almost as creative as daemons when it comes to what they can do with a soul. Turning them into other devils is the least of their options.
Edit: For that matter it might not have originally been a secret only for the Gray Gardeners. The council that commissioned the blades probably all knew the way to release the souls too, but seeing as at least one is currently inside of a Final Blade it doesn't seem things went well for them.
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Notionally they do oversee just executions. All traitors to the cause deserve to die.
...They are often wrong or not especially exacting in determining the truth. That does not prevent there being a Gray Gardener who is a little more particular than the others.
You and I are operating on two VERY different mindsets if you consider anything the Gray Garderners do as "Just".
Also, the GG don't pick who are executed, or even judge them. They just maintain and operate the methods of execution.
I fully agree with you in general. I can however see room for an exceptional individual who only accepts just targets.
Not everything needs to be an absolute.
But no Gray Garderner accepts their targets, and how much evidence is there of the people being executed by the blades are actually deserving it? To the madness of Galt, in direct opposition of a Paladin, if you get executed by a Final Blade, you were evil and full deserved it.
Even then it doesn't override the in-numerous amount of innocent people being executed.
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Uh, yeah, only certain 16th+ level characters are privy to how to free trapped souls. That ain't right.
Not to mention it's completely impractical for what you're suggesting they were for. It takes years to transform evil souls into Devils. They weren't doing it to give themselves an edge in the revolution, they did it because they were insane and spiteful.
Those are the same people who would be using them and all you would need is one to tell how and the secret is out.
Who said you need them to be turned into devils? Moloch literally uses souls as fuel for his war engines and doesn't require them to be his worshipers as his followers can sacrifice someone in his name and into the fires they go. For a more direct route the devils can just let their enemies see what they are doing to the souls of the loved ones as psychological warfare. Devils are almost as creative as daemons when it comes to what they can do with a soul. Turning them into other devils is the least of their options.
Except no one has told that secret, and none of the Gray Gardeners will.
That applies to ALL Fiends. What are you suggesting, just soul trap everyone?