Tiny creatures fighting


Rules Questions


A tiny creature has a natural reach of 0, that has no problem for attacking medium creatures as rules says that can enter in their space provoking an AoO. But what happen when a tiny creature want to attack another tiny creature?


The reach 0ft means that they threaten no squares around them. They still threaten the square they occupy. So the attacking Tiny creature has to enter the square of the defending Tiny creature, provoking an AoO. I'm pretty sure there's something somewhere about Tiny and smaller creature being able to end their turns in a larger creature's space (else familiars could never perch on your shoulder), so subsequent rounds the two creatures just duke it out in the same square.

Dark Archive

If it's only tiny creatures fighting with nothing bigger or smaller involved, I'd probably cheat. I'd run out EXACTLY the same as regular combat and change the size of squares on my battle mat.
Think about it: combat in Pathfinder is designed around medium creatures; tiny foes probably shouldn't get bonuses relative to each other.


Anguish wrote:
I'm pretty sure there's something somewhere about Tiny and smaller creature being able to end their turns in a larger creature's space (else familiars could never perch on your shoulder), so subsequent rounds the two creatures just duke it out in the same square.

Yes, tiny and smaller creature can end their turns in a larger creature's space, but not in a creature's space of the same size. So the tiny attacking creature can't enter in the tiny defending creature's space.

Ectar wrote:
If it's only tiny creatures fighting with nothing bigger or smaller involved, I'd probably cheat. I'd run out EXACTLY the same as regular combat and change the size of squares on my battle mat.

If there's only tiny creatures involved in a fight, I'll houseruled that a tiny creature has an effective reach of 2.5ft. But, what if there are involved in the fight small or medium (or larger) creatures?

Dark Archive

Well, the rules a kind of vague. Entering a square occupied by a creature provokes an AoO. However, tiny creatures don't reach past their own square. AoOs typically resolve before the movement, so the tiny defender wouldn't get one as another tiny creature entered her square.
But, I could easily see that being ruled differently.

One thing that confuses me is this line from the combat section:
"Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy."
Does this mean a larger creature could enter a square with a tiny creature in it without provoking, or do you need to go around to avoid the AoO?


Brushhy wrote:
Yes, tiny and smaller creature can end their turns in a larger creature's space, but not in a creature's space of the same size. So the tiny attacking creature can't enter in the tiny defending creature's space.

Not true, actually. Multiple tiny (or smaller) creatures can fit in the same square.

CRB wrote:
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square.

However, I'd houserule the size of the squares so that the smallest creature involved occupies 1 square (in the case of very small creatures fighting each other). And I would probably change the space (and reach) of small creatures, since I don't like them having the same as medium creatures.

Liberty's Edge

Khudzlin wrote:
However, I'd houserule the size of the squares so that the smallest creature involved occupies 1 square (in the case of very small creatures fighting each other). And I would probably change the space (and reach) of small creatures, since I don't like them having the same as medium creatures.

Treat the smallest creature(s) as effectively medium and all other creatures as correspondingly larger size categories (w/ reach, etc).


Is someone runnning a mouse-keteers homebrew game? This makes me want to roleplay a The Littlea fantasy campaign...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Some number (10s, 100s and 1000s) of tiny and smaller creatures can occupy the same space (look at swarms for an example.)

Tiny creatures with 0 reach won't be able to take AoO when another tiny creature moves into their square.

All tiny creatures in a square can melee each other.


Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee.


Ok, maybe I misunderstood the rules. Then, there's no need to specify which quarter is occupying a tiny creature in a square? They are simply in "that" square (up to maximum four, according to the rules)?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Yes in that square, not any specific corner.


Thanks for clarifying the rules :D

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