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Using a scroll is like casting a spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
Now I presume that using divine scrolls is like casting divine spells and so no arcane spell failure is possible. However in PFS I don't get to presume so I'm looking for clarification as to whether that's a correct assumption, or if the sentence is saying that ALL spell casting off of scrolls incurs spell failure chances.
Furthermore, for PFS we have an added wrinkle in the special rules regarding Potions, Scrolls, and Wands section in the PFSGOP (beginning on page 20 of the current/season 8 version).
We do away with the distinction between divine and arcane spells, and we also do away with the distinction between classes for the purposes of the same spell being on multiple class lists.
So, if a Cleric wants to cast Summon Monster (fill in the variable) off of a scroll, does he or does he not incur arcane spell failure chances?
(I'm guessing No, since the scroll can be assumed to be a divine cleric scroll in his hands whilst the same scroll would then be an arcane wizard scroll in a wizard's hands..)
More complex, what about an armored fighter using UMD on that same scroll? Spell failure check or no?
Edit: Perhaps the answer lies in which stat the Fighter has (or successfully duplicates via UMD) for casting the scroll?
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Since Summon Monster X is on the wizard spell list, and not the cleric or druid, all scrolls of it are assumed to be arcane spells.
Summon Monster spells not on the Cleric list? That's news to the CRB!
Edit: Ta-Da! Linkified!
Edit redux: As for the OP's questions...
These are how I'd rule it:
Cleric UMD'ing scroll - no Arcane Spell Failure chance.
Fighter UMD'ing scroll - I would say it depends on the stat the Fighter is using. Int? Yes. Wis? No. Cha? It's murky, but I'd still probably say no.
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Now I presume that using divine scrolls is like casting divine spells and so no arcane spell failure is possible. However in PFS I don't get to presume so I'm looking for clarification as to whether that's a correct assumption, or if the sentence is saying that ALL spell casting off of scrolls incurs spell failure chances.
Using a scroll is like casting a spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
You don't need to presume. This is talking about arcane spell failure, which does not apply to divine spells i.e.
Using a divine scroll is like casting a divine spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance (none).
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Now I presume that using divine scrolls is like casting divine spells and so no arcane spell failure is possible. However in PFS I don't get to presume so I'm looking for clarification as to whether that's a correct assumption, or if the sentence is saying that ALL spell casting off of scrolls incurs spell failure chances.
Using a scroll is like casting a spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance.You don't need to presume. This is talking about arcane spell failure, which does not apply to divine spells i.e.
Using a divine scroll is like casting a divine spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance (none).
Well, I thought that was the RAI too. Thanks for sharing your opinion. PFSOP muddles that though by removing the divine/acrane distinction on scrolls. So in PFSOP, there technically are no divine scrolls. No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure.
Seems like what "should" be divine scrolls should be exempt from spell failure, but PFSOP makes it easier said than done to be clear on what "should" be a divine scroll.
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Now I presume that using divine scrolls is like casting divine spells and so no arcane spell failure is possible. However in PFS I don't get to presume so I'm looking for clarification as to whether that's a correct assumption, or if the sentence is saying that ALL spell casting off of scrolls incurs spell failure chances.
Using a scroll is like casting a spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance.You don't need to presume. This is talking about arcane spell failure, which does not apply to divine spells i.e.
Using a divine scroll is like casting a divine spell for the purposes of arcane spell failure chance (none).
Well, I thought that was the RAI too. Thanks for sharing your opinion. PFSOP muddles that though by removing the divine/acrane distinction on scrolls. So in PFSOP, there technically are no divine scrolls. No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure.
Seems like what "should" be divine scrolls should be exempt from spell failure, but PFSOP makes it easier said than done to be clear on what "should" be a divine scroll.
It depends on where the character attempting to use the scroll gets their casting ability from. If the fighter in the above example chooses to UMD Emulate the Spells ability of a Cleric, then he is casting as a cleric. He then needs to UMD Use a Scroll to put the spell on the scroll onto his spell list, and then he can attempt to cast the spell on the scroll as a cleric casting a spell off the cleric spell list.
If for some reason he chose to UMD a Wizard to get spell casting ability, then he would have to make an arcane spell failure check for the same scroll, as the scroll itself is neither arcane nor divine, but he would be casting it as an arcane caster.
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If the rules matter you could just say you have to pick a class you're pretending to be when you use it and stick by those rules.
As far as I can tell, that is exactly how it works. There is no difference between an arcane or divine scroll, so the rules depend on the person who is casting it.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well, I thought that was the RAI too. Thanks for sharing your opinion. PFSOP muddles that though by removing the divine/acrane distinction on scrolls. So in PFSOP, there technically are no divine scrolls. No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure.
What makes you think any non-arcane spells are affected by spell failure?
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What makes you think any non-arcane spells are affected by spell failure?
Well, I thought that was the RAI too. Thanks for sharing your opinion. PFSOP muddles that though by removing the divine/acrane distinction on scrolls. So in PFSOP, there technically are no divine scrolls. No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure.
What makes you think I do?
Yes. It is a rule I have always ignored to the point I had forgotten it exist, but PFS doesn't give that option. This is one of those rules which makes things way too complicated. Just dump ASF from scrolls<-----What I would do if I were in charge.
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Re: Lau and Pirate Rob (Pedantry alert for everyone else)
This sentence seems to have confused you both:
"No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure."
What I was saying there is that there's two ways to look at what is affected by ASF... either it affects only arcane spells OR it affects everything excepting those that are exempted (I.E. divine spells). And that I reject the former rationale (first) and embrace the latter (second). So, basically, I was saying the opposite of what you thought I was.
The whole point was being made in relation to scrolls... one way of synthesizing what the rule I quoted in the OP is saying is that spells cast from scrolls constitute a third possible category of spellcasting that is neither arcane nor divine... and if so as a 3rd category ASF should probably apply rather than not apply.
While I still see that as "a" legitimate reading of the rules, I happen to concur with the opinions upthread about RAI instead meaning scroll spells are cast as their innate type rather than a third untyped type. In the case of PFS, I agree with the idea that the best, least rules-disruptive way to handle it for UMDers is that they pick what class they're pretending to be when they UMD it and therefore that answers whether a scroll at that moment is treated as divine or arcane.
I'd add that I feel that should be a good way to do it for ALL purposes of dichotomizing arcane/divine nature.. not just ASF. Does the target get a bonus to will saves vs Divine spells? Well, this method would also neatly answer whether a UMD'd scroll on that target is divine or not.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Re: Lau and Pirate Rob (Pedantry alert for everyone else)
This sentence seems to have confused you both:
"No arcane scrolls either, but spell failure doesn't apply only to arcane spells... divine spells are excepted from spell failure."What I was saying there is that there's two ways to look at what is affected by ASF... either it affects only arcane spells OR it affects everything excepting those that are exempted (I.E. divine spells). And that I reject the former rationale (first) and embrace the latter (second). So, basically, I was saying the opposite of what you thought I was.
I... really have trouble trying to make out what you mean here. Is it A or B?
A) Arcane Spell Failure only affects arcane spellcasting.
B) Arcane Spell Failure affects anyone who doesn't have an explicit exemption.
I'm pretty sure A is the correct interpretation;
Arcane Spell Failure Chance: Armor interferes with the gestures that a spellcaster must make to cast an arcane spell that has a somatic component. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they're wearing armor. Bards can wear light armor and use shields without incurring any arcane spell failure chance for their bard spells.
Casting an Arcane Spell in Armor: A character who casts an arcane spell while wearing armor must usually make an arcane spell failure check. The number in the Arcane Spell Failure Chance column on Table: Armor and Shields is the percentage chance that the spell fails and is ruined. If the spell lacks a somatic component, however, it can be cast with no chance of arcane spell failure.
Shields: If a character is wearing armor and using a shield, add the two numbers together to get a single arcane spell failure chance.
Psychic and divine casters don't need a specific exemption, because it only ever applies to arcane casters.
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I... really have trouble trying to make out what you mean here. Is it A or B?
A) Arcane Spell Failure only affects arcane spellcasting.
B) Arcane Spell Failure affects anyone who doesn't have an explicit exemption.
I was saying "yes, it's got to be one of those two." I happen to lean towards B, but either A or B has to be true, and that distinction potentially impacts scrolls in PFS since they are neither arcane nor divine.
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I was saying "yes, it's got to be one of those two." I happen to lean towards B, but either A or B has to be true, and that distinction potentially impacts scrolls in PFS since they are neither arcane nor divine.I... really have trouble trying to make out what you mean here. Is it A or B?
A) Arcane Spell Failure only affects arcane spellcasting.
B) Arcane Spell Failure affects anyone who doesn't have an explicit exemption.
If "B" is true,
Do Bards get "an explicit exemption" for using scrolls?If so, would a Bards "explicit exemption" apply to scrolls that were NOT on the Bards spell list?
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If "B" is true...
Down that path lies only a rules discussion about the core rules rather than a discussion about a PFS rules issue.
I think everyone (myself included, in case that hasn't been clear) is in agreement that for the purposes of PFS a scroll-cast spell should be treated as a spell cast by a member of the class the character is using or replicating via UMD to use the scroll in all ways, including but not limited to ASF.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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For madness, you ask if a 7th level Magus in Medium Armor has ASF when reading a scroll of Fire Shield with a caster level of 7.
The caster level of a wizard scroll of Fire Shield would normally be 7.
A 7th level Magus can only cast 3rd level spells, but can do so in Medium Armor without ASF.
Fire Shield is on the Magus list.
There are other issues like this with scrolls when you don't require that the scroll be written by the same class as is reading it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane
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My question is, how is the fighter casting from scrolls? Does he have an ability that lets him read magic or a wand of read magic? It takes a full round to read the scroll prior to casting it (which can be done ahead of time). He can not just grab a random scroll and UMD it without being able to read said scroll first.
A fighter that UMD's a scroll that is normally a divine spell should have no spell failure, but casting an arcane spell he would (with no ability to negate arcane spell failure). The grey area is spells that appear on both arcane and divine lists, that is where you are likely to see table variation.
A 7th level Magus has a class ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor with out ASF, I don't think it is limited by the level he can actually cast, he should be able to use scrolls above his casting level as long as he makes the caster level check without arcane spell failure.
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The grey area is spells that appear on both arcane and divine lists, that is where you are likely to see table variation.
It really shouldn't be.
You need 2 individual UMD checks for that fighter to use the scroll since he is not a spell caster, since the UMD to use a scroll only serves to treat the spell as if it were on your spell list.
Since you have to be a spell caster to use a scroll, you also have to UMD to make the fighter a spell caster by emulating the Spells ability of a chosen class. That's the point where you decide if you are casting as an arcane, divine, or other class.
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Since you have to be a spell caster to use a scroll, you also have to UMD to make the fighter a spell caster by emulating the Spells ability of a chosen class. That's the point where you decide if you are casting as an arcane, divine, or other class.
Erm, no. That's what the first/only UMD check is doing. (unless you count the one at -5 to read the scroll, which he can take 20 on)
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Erm, no. That's what the first/only UMD check is doing. (unless you count the one at -5 to read the scroll, which he can take 20 on)
Since you have to be a spell caster to use a scroll, you also have to UMD to make the fighter a spell caster by emulating the Spells ability of a chosen class. That's the point where you decide if you are casting as an arcane, divine, or other class.
That's the way I've always played it too, until I read through the rules for UMD and scrolls when responding to this thread.
Scrolls: "To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it."
UMD on a Scroll: "Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."
It puts the spell on your spell list. That is all. It doesn't make you a spell caster. So this is for someone who can already cast spells, but doesn't have that specific spell on their list.
For someone who can't cast spells, there seems to be the additional requirement to emulate the Spells class ability, which is an additional check.
This surprised me, but on reflection it does seem reasonable for a Fighter to have a harder time casting a Wizard spell from a scroll than a Bard would.
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Yeah, No. You're going out into left field and reading things that aren't there.
Probably, I'm honestly not sure. Like I said, I've always played it with just the one check myself, but I'm not 100% sure that is correct from the wording of UMD as applied to scrolls.
Emulating the Spells ability is an easier check than activating the scroll, and has the benefit of providing clarity on whether the scroll is being activated as arcane or divine for PFS.
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"Spells" is not a class feature. As a wizard you have wizard spells. As a cleric you have cleric spells. A wizard doesn't have any easier time using a scroll of cure light wounds than a fighter does.
It is indeed listed as a named class feature for all spell casting classes.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer....
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells...
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Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells...
Okay, So how is a sorcerer casting a divine spell any different than a fighter casting a divine spell?
Further...
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
The spell list IS the class feature. You put it on the spell list you already have the class feature covered.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Yeah, No. You're going out into left field and reading things that aren't there.
"Spells" is not a class feature. As a wizard you have wizard spells. As a cleric you have cleric spells. A wizard doesn't have any easier time using a scroll of cure light wounds than a fighter does.
Technically the wizard can dump Wisdom and still not need to emulate the ability score which is why the scroll issue is so confusing.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Spokane
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Looking at the scroll section and UMD section of the core rulebook:
A fighter trying to use a scroll can take up to three checks.
Decipher the scroll: requiring read magic, Spellcraft (20+ spell level, takes a full round action) or UMD (25+spell level requiring one minute of concentration).
If you do not have the requisite ability score
Emulate an ability score: (Intelligence for wizard, Wisdom for divine or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells) you effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is you UMD check result minus 15.
Activate the Scroll: 20+ caster level of the scroll
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Looking at the scroll section and UMD section of the core rulebook:
A fighter trying to use a scroll can take up to three checks.
Decipher the scroll: requiring read magic, Spellcraft (20+ spell level, takes a full round action) or UMD (25+spell level requiring one minute of concentration).
If you do not have the requisite ability score
Emulate an ability score: (Intelligence for wizard, Wisdom for divine or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells) you effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is you UMD check result minus 15.Activate the Scroll: 20+ caster level of the scroll
I think the consensus is that the best/easiest thing to do is on the 2nd UMD check (where one emulates the requisite ability score) the player is also declaring which class his character is emulating.
For characters that don't need to emulate a score, instead of skipping that stage entirely the player still declares what class is being emulated where the UMD check is unnecessary.
It's unnecessary in regular PF, but because PFS alters scrolls so that they're not arcane/divine and not explicitly any class spell, this approach can address everything that comes with ambiguous scrolls.
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I agree with BNW. Brock's interpretation would make the Esoteric Linguistics feat useless.
How so? I'm not talking about deciphering the scroll.
I'm talking about the Fighter having to gain a spell-list for the Activate check to put the spell on so that the scroll can be cast.
1) Decipher a scroll - nothing more to say about this
2) Be a spell caster with the appropriate ability score for your kind of spell casting - one or two Emulate UMD checks might be required here
3) Activate the scroll - if the spell isn't already on your spell list, put it on there by making a UMD to activate
4) You can use the scroll now
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
So you are not emulating another class at all.
For example, a rogue actives a scroll with UMD. According to the skill, succeeding on this check allows you to use the scroll as if it were on the rogue's spell list. Since the rogue doesn't normally have a spell list, they now have a list of 1 spell, the spell on the scroll they are trying to activate. But is it arcane or divine? Neither. Rogue is not an arcane class nor is it a divine class.
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.So you are not emulating another class at all.
For example, a rogue actives a scroll with UMD. According to the skill, succeeding on this check allows you to use the scroll as if it were on the rogue's spell list. Since the rogue doesn't normally have a spell list, they now have a list of 1 spell, the spell on the scroll they are trying to activate. But is it arcane or divine? Neither. Rogue is not an arcane class nor is it a divine class.
This is why I think that if you are not a spell caster you might have to ALSO emulate that class feature to use a scroll, which would indicate whether you were casting it as arcane or divine.
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Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.So you are not emulating another class at all.
For example, a rogue actives a scroll with UMD. According to the skill, succeeding on this check allows you to use the scroll as if it were on the rogue's spell list. Since the rogue doesn't normally have a spell list, they now have a list of 1 spell, the spell on the scroll they are trying to activate. But is it arcane or divine? Neither. Rogue is not an arcane class nor is it a divine class.
The problem with that view, in my opinion, is it's leaving the question of whether arcane spell failure should apply to "rogue spells" unaddressed.
Outside of PFS it's not an issue since a scroll of summon monster isn't just a spell of summon monster... it's explicitly a cleric spell scroll or a wizard spell scroll or a bard spell scroll or an oracle spell scroll or etc... and so the "does ASF apply or not" question never arises except in PFS.
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This is why I think that if you are not a spell caster you might have to ALSO emulate that class feature to use a scroll, which would indicate whether you were casting it as arcane or divine.
"Spells" is not a class feature. "Wizard spells" or "sorcerer spells" or "cleric spells" is the class feature. When you make a roll to count as having "wizard spells" you are counted as having spells.
Please do not surprise players with new rules interpretations that no one has ever seen used before in the 20 years of the game.
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"Spells" is not a class feature. "Wizard spells" or "sorcerer spells" or "cleric spells" is the class feature. When you make a roll to count as having "wizard spells" you are counted as having spells.
Please do not surprise players with new rules interpretations that no one has ever seen used before in the 20 years of the game.
On the contrary, "Spells" is the name of the class feature that you find under each casting class. The class spell list comes from this feature. If you don't have the feature, you don't have a class spell list to which you can add the scroll spell. For characters without a Spells class feature, I have always seen Use Magic Device require checks to emulate that class feature, the necessary caster stat (if applicable), and the scroll activation, so I wouldn't say that this is a new rules interpretation.
That said, since PFS does not specify that scroll spells have an associated class, you should be able to emulate the Spells feature from any class that has it and thus would choose which caster stat would apply and whether arcane spell failure due to armor is possible. For example, a Wis 12 rogue choosing to emulate a cleric to use a scroll of invisibility would need to make two checks to activate the scroll (assuming he had read it previously), one to emulate the cleric Spells class feature (DC 20) and one to use a scroll (DC 20 + class level), and would not be subject to arcane spell failure.
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On the contrary, "Spells" is the name of the class feature that you find under each casting class.
The class features are different despite having the same name. That is why a cleric has the spells class feature and cannot cast wizard spells.
The class spell list comes from this feature. If you don't have the feature, you don't have a class spell list to which you can add the scroll spell.
This is the entire point of making the UMD to use the scroll.
For characters without a Spells class feature, I have always seen Use Magic Device require checks to emulate that class feature, the necessary caster stat (if applicable), and the scroll activation, so I wouldn't say that this is a new rules interpretation.
It is a new and wrong rules interpretation. Please do not spring it on players.
You would not be able to use UMD to declare a cleric scroll of invisibility, it's not a cleric spell.
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On the contrary, "Spells" is the name of the class feature that you find under each casting class. The class spell list comes from this feature. If you don't have the feature, you don't have a class spell list to which you can add the scroll spell. For characters without a Spells class feature, I have always seen Use Magic Device require checks to emulate that class feature, the necessary caster stat (if applicable), and the scroll activation, so I wouldn't say that this is a new rules interpretation.
I'm stunned. I've never seen UMD ruled that way in all of my years of playing. It's only this thread that caused me to re-read the rules that made me realise the limitations of what the Activate check for scrolls actually does. Very interesting to hear that it's played that way out in the wild somewhere.
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On reflection, it occurred to me that perhaps BNW may have been saying that the PC could use UMD to emulate the Spells class feature from the wizard class and activate a scroll with a spell from that class list without needing to make a separate check for using a scroll. I would agree that emulating the Spells class feature of any caster class should give you the class spell list for it, but you would be subject to arcane spell failure if you are emulating a class for which that rule applies.
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On reflection, it occurred to me that perhaps BNW may have been saying that the PC could use UMD to emulate the Spells class feature from the wizard class and activate a scroll with a spell from that class list without needing to make a separate check for using a scroll. I would agree that emulating the Spells class feature of any caster class should give you the class spell list for it, but you would be subject to arcane spell failure if you are emulating a class for which that rule applies.
No. Making a UMD check to use a scroll means you get to use a scroll.
If you could make a UMD check to emulate the spell class feature, all you'd need to do would be to make the dc 20 check, rather than the harder dc 20+caster level (just noticed that isn't spell level)
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
If you want to be really pedantic, a rogue using UMD adds the spell to the rogue class spell list.
UMD to let you use a scroll lets you use the scroll. No need to dig into the tea leaves more than that.
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If you could make a UMD check to emulate the spell class feature, all you'd need to do would be to make the dc 20 check, rather than the harder dc 20+caster level (just noticed that isn't spell level)
That's a good point. Does the 'Spells' class feature give you the spell list, or does having levels in the class give you the spell list?
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OK, let's kill this by looking at the question from another angle:
BNW and TO have convinced me. I think the wording on activating a scroll could be more useful though, by stating you have to pick a class to activate it as. That would clear up the other questions nicely.
Sorry for the derail.