Okay so in two of the three previous games I've GMed I had a Cavilar and a Ranger. The cavilar went charge and at the higher levels felt a real limition in his damage output. To the point I was trying to help him and well I gave him a feat to take in a chain so he could full round attack against one enemy. Esstienially pounce, but it did seem like a huge cap on higher level stuff and he didn't want to deversify which I think is on him, but moving on.
In the game where I had the ranger, he didn't use his companion as anything but a mount and he was ranged and he got his full attack while mounted.
Since were preparing for a new game, he cames in and askes as it just occurred to him why couldn't he do that?
So we look up the rules for it. Mounted combat reads as follows.:
With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground.
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted. If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
Okay looking at all of that. He ask's a question that I couldn't really think up an answer for. Why go a Melee charge build then. You get more power early levels sure, but the downside to losing your all out attack options he thinks makes Cavilar useless for a melee build. Why not just go straight Archery full round attack every round.
So I suppose my question is ranged mounted combat just better period. Because I tend to agree with him reading it this way.
The archer doesn't suffer any penalties until he moves past the double move mark for a -4. Which is a lot, but how many mounts have like 40 move anyway making you able to kite people easily.
how was the mounted charge losing? A mounted charge is 3 attacks worth of damage.
base damage
lance doubles that
spirited charge adds it again
so a charge is doing 3d8+3(str*1.5)+3(3*power attack increase)+3(weapon enhancement)
so say level 16, high enough and 22 str and a +4 weapon
3d8+3(4*1.5)+3(3*5)+3(4)
3d8+3(6)+3(15)+3(4)
3d8+3(6+15+4)
3d8+3(25)
3d8+75 damage in one hit. If I challenge my target it also gets multiplied by 3 so my 3d8+75 turns into 3d8+123 with a high chance to hit since it's at full BAB and getting a +4 from the charge.
A CR 16 enemy should have roughly 240HP, with cr 19 having 330HP. 1 non-optimized challenged charge is doing over half the =CR or 2 rounds to solo it. and doing over a 3rd of the "bosses" hp.
Now you might have harder fights, or some very optimized archers. But having this much damage as a baseline doesn't seem like a bad place to start.
EDIT: Also archery is "the best" damage option because it gets to full attack every round. So set realistic expectations.
OKay that explains. I talked to him a bit and yeah Archery is better by a bit with that explanation.
He just thought it was multiplying like a crit where he only increased the number of dice. I didn't read those feats too careful. So it was an oversight...
Thanks for helping to clear that up for us.
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Ummm, a couple things. First the critical thing, when you critical, you multiply most of your static damage as well, so if you're doing 1d8+6, a critical will be 2d8+12. Precision damage and things like the flaming weapon enchantment don't double, but most things like your strength modifier, power attack, weapon enhancement, and such do get multiplied.
Second, it takes a while, but a level 14 cavalier with the Mounted Skirmisher feat can make all it's attacks as long as it's charge only takes a single move. So, being hasted and using spirited charge, that's effectively 6 attacks a round with 2 handed strength and power attack damage. So high level cavaliers can be very competent. Especially when they have Chain Challenge as well. Their biggest concern is learning to cope with flying enemies.
Ummm, a couple things. First the critical thing, when you critical, you multiply most of your static damage as well, so if you're doing 1d8+6, a critical will be 2d8+12. Precision damage and things like the flaming weapon enchantment don't double, but most things like your strength modifier, power attack, weapon enhancement, and such do get multiplied.
Second, it takes a while, but a level 14 cavalier with the Mounted Skirmisher feat can make all it's attacks as long as it's charge only takes a single move. So, being hasted and using spirited charge, that's effectively 6 attacks a round with 2 handed strength and power attack damage. So high level cavaliers can be very competent. Especially when they have Chain Challenge as well. Their biggest concern is learning to cope with flying enemies.
Except that when you charge it's a full round action with only one attack. Quote of Charge. To get a full round attack on a charge you need pounce.
Charge
FAQ
Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Charging is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action.
[Source]
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
As for the crit thing yeah I know. What I meant was that he thought it was just the dice that got multiplied like a crit modifer without the others. Don't know why he thought that, but there you go.
If you aren't averse to using Unchained rules, take a look at the Revised Action Economy. It removes full attacks, instead allowing up to three actions which can each be a single attack, though with penalties on tue second and third ones. Makes melee fighters a lot more mobile.