I am running a game, and the party includes a Hunter (4th level) with a wolf companion. He and the wolf have come upon a pretty effective combat method, and I want to check if the way we are playing it, squares with RAW.
Both Hunter and Wolf have Combat Reflexes (wolf Int=3). Also, share Outflank (flanking bonus = +4), Pack Flanking (flank enemy regardless of position if both threaten and they are adjacent to each other)
Hunter uses a Guisarme (reach,trip) and typically will position behind the wolf, so the Hunter threatens anything the wolf does.
When the wolf hits, it gets a trip attack. If successful, that puts the enemy prone. Both Hunter & wolf now have +4 (outflank) bonus against the prone enemy (now suffering -4AC as well). They effectively have +8 to hit vs. the prone target.
If the enemy attempts to stand up, they both get attacks of opportunity. And, if the wolf hits on the AoO, it can trip the enemy again, keeping it on the ground.
Because both have combat reflexes, they can keep more than one enemy they threaten in this situation, making AoO as each target tries to get up from prone. All the while pounding on them with their boosted flanking and prone enemy bonuses each combat round.
It all seems to be RAW legal. My one worry, was if a wolf's successful attack on an AoO still allows for a trip attack as well. Haven't been able to find any dis-qualifier for it. I've been playing it this way (and likely continue), because it fits the idea of wolf/wolves keeping prey grounded/hamstrung as they try to get up.
Any thoughts? Errors? Support?
Thanks
yeah. you cant perma-trip anything.
The rule is that AoOs come before the action that triggered them. If standing up was that action, then prior to that he was....prone. so another trip does nothing.
rest of it seems fine
I don't recall the specifics of all the abilities mentioned, but is there anything to negate the fact that the Wolf provides the target with soft cover? If not, the enemy gets another +4 AC against the Hunter and the Hunter can't make AoOs.
As I mentioned though, I could have missed a relevant ability.
The wolf will in fact provide soft cover against the hunter's attacks. The easy solution is for the hunter to stand slightly at an angle so he's not directly behind his wolf ally and has a clear shot to the target, but it does have to be checked.
And just to echo the above posts, it's correct that you can't permanently trip anything through the AoO from getting up while prone. Though you still have a significant advantage, since they can't withdraw from you, and therefore if they want to flee further than 5 feet, they have to take a move action (with their remaining standard action), which provokes from both of you and opens them up to being tripped again.
The part your doing wrong is that when the enemy provokes for standing up, it's prone when it provokes and thus cannot be tripped as part of the AoO.
Thanks for the input.
I did catch that while looking over the rules, which is why I "worried" it could be wrong.As you correctly point out, an attack of opportunity 'interrupts' the action provoking it, so technically the target is not yet standing again.
If the 'technically not standing yet' issue is the only obstacle, I might house rule it to allow anyway. As I stated, it really fits how I see the wolf taking down prey.
Even if I do so, I appreciate you confirming I read that right.
The other possible flaw, was whether or not a wolf still gets a trip attack, if it makes a successful attack of opportunity. The monster rules for trip special attack, state it can make a trip attack as a free action on a successful attack. Is there something elsewhere in rules, that disqualifies it, because the attack was from an AoO?
(thinking about normal circumstances - not having to do with the 'prone' issue)
Ouch. I didn't even think of the soft cover.
Pictured Hunter with a pole-arm, striking over his wolf without impediment; so it didn't register.
Thanks for the info.
Pod
Ouch. I didn't even think of the soft cover.
Pictured Hunter with a pole-arm, striking over his wolf without impediment; so it didn't register.
Thanks for the info.
Pod
I just looked up cover/soft cover. If I am reading correctly, that only applies to ranged attacks.
Your other question about whether the wolf can attempt to trip when making an AoO: Yes, it can.
A lot of thanks for everyone chiming in.
I think we all covered the bases pretty well.
- Target gets soft cover if Hunter, using reach, has wolf companion between himself and target.
- AoO interrupts the target getting up, so trip attack would not be able to be performed against a 'still prone' target as an AoO.
Just to play devil's advocate, I have one last thought.
Could the following case be made:
It's clear that normally, an AoO cannot be a trip maneuver vs. a target getting up, since it's resolved before they stand. No dispute.
However, the OP example above is not using the AoO AS a trip. The Wolf is biting.
The trip (monster ability) is a separate free action, allowed AFTER a successful hit (in this case, the preceding AoO).
Certainly a rules lawyer-esque interpretation. But since the trip in this case is NOT the AoO, what would prevent it from being allowed in this situation?
How would you argue that the monster special ability has the same interrupt issue the AoO has in this case? Or is it a loop-hole?
Could the PC say that the wolf bites (AoO) as enemy gets up, and then gets his 'bonus' trip attack to put them back on the ground?
-Pod
The trip is a rider on the bite, not a separate event. There is no delay between the resolution of them.
The trip is a rider on the bite, not a separate event. There is no delay between the resolution of them.
Source?
That interpretation makes some common sense, certainly.But if challenged on grounds of RAW, where is that supported/stated?
So you are suggesting that a wolf can make an AoO triggered by the opponent attempting to stand, an attack that happens while the opponent is still prone, and then wait for the opponent to stand before resolving the free trip attempt it is entitled to when succesfully biting? Do we need a rule citation if I claim that a viper cannot wait till later for its poison to take effect? If you are the GM and need support for this ruling, you won't find it stated explicitly, because there is no time when you get to arbitrarily wait for part of your attack to resolve.
I am the GM, and fully capable of making ruling on it.
Make them often, and quite a few where common sense counters what "technically" is/isn't allowed.
I'm not trying to get into disagreements, so much as a 'cover all the bases' where they exist.
My 'devil's advocate" point, in a sense, was taking the position of a rules lawyer, who could claim (not extraneously), that the attack of opportunity bite, and the trip are separate actions.
So far, only the AoO mechanic specifically would rule out a trip, since they are still prone at that instant.
Two (arguably distinct) actions are happening nearly simultaneously as the enemy gets up. While the AoO mechanics specify it interrupts the action that provokes it; if the following trip is seen as a separate action (with its own mechanics and separate die rolls to resolve), couldn't one say the interrupt aspect doesn't apply to it lacking a RAW saying so?
I don't see the viper example or waiting arbitrarily to resolve an attack apply are on point.
Overall, we are talking about a few seconds, and at what point in the stand attempt, the second action (trip) is occurring.
It is clear regarding the AoO.
A subsequent free action, qualified for by AoO already happening successfully, is not. That's the question I am mulling over.
Oh I think my viper example is perfectly on point. When the snake bites it applies poison, when the wolf bites it applies trip. Both resolve separatetly than the bite, but only when the bite is succesful. The trip is part of the bite attack, so they happen together, not when you want them to. When does the bonus damage from a flaming sword take effect?
If that doesn't work for you read the definition of free action where it says "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." that is during, not a few seconds later.
OK. I can see where you are coming from now.
Stated that way, it makes your point much clearer.
I might be tempted to contend that the poison and the sword's flame damage, aren't 'actions taken' like the trip attack is, but your intent is clear nonetheless.
The real kicker is the "while taking another action" in the free action text you provided. That alone, strongly supports your position.
Even if I want to keep considering the AoO Bite and the free trip as separate actions, that puts them both as happening at the same time in the sequence (i.e. while the target is still prone)
Thanks for the input. Definitely added another facet to the exercise.