I am building a whip magus. I'm considering options, as I think I may want to multiclass.
So far I'm building off a Sylph (with alternate racial abilities giving +5 speed, +2 AC v. non-magic ranged, and +4 stealth). I'm also going full dex.
He is Kensai:
Traits: Magical Lineage (Snowball), Reactionary
Feats 1: Weapon Focus/proficiency (Whip), Weapon Finesse
Feat 3: Whip Mastery
Arcana 3: Wand Wielder
At the moment his schtick is to cast true strike and then use a maneuver to mess stuff up. Long term I'm intending to pick up Rime spell and the Close Range arcana, and probably combat maneuver feats and more whip feats.
3 levels of unchained rogue (waylayer) is looking attractive to me, but loosing out on those Magus will hurt. I'll delay 2nd level spells, more arcana, and a wider use of my pool points, but I can pick up 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, dex-to-damage, always going in a surprise round, and a rogue trick. In other words, it appears that I am trading magical flexibility for more damage and surprise round actions.
Worth it? Is there something else worthwhile?
Yes, a whip/truestrike Magus is a good combo. I wouldn't recommend a three-level dip in anything, though; your arcane pool at level 5 and your higher-level spells are very useful.
You can get an Agile whip for dex to damage, and there's spells that let you sneak attack. And, note that the waylayer isn't guaranteed to act in a surprise round, but just guaranteed to not be flat-footed. Here's a guide for something else worthwhile.
You're right, he doesn't get that until level 8. That takes a lot of the shine off; going during an initiative round was a major attraction of rogue - 1 level in, a second for evasion wouldn't be painful, a third for dex-to-damage. But without that at one it just isn't near as nice.
What is that guide? The link isn't working for me for some reason, but I'm more than willing to google-fu it.
Do not Dip Rogue.
It kills your Caster level and makes you MUCH weaker than straight magus.
Ever since the nerf of Slashing Grace it is harder to pull off a DEX based whip magus like it use to be.
Snowball is an ok spell but delivering spells Via Spellstrike with a whip you do a lot better with Frigid Touch and Frostbite (to begin with)
I Recommend going STR based so you do not need the Weapon Finesse ever since the nerf. Grab up Enforcer in it's Place and make your First Weapon Enchantment Cruel. Now when you hit you can give them a -4 to most things (Saves included). -4, Staggered and Entangled is just straight Brutal as debuffing goes.
Genuine wrote: What is that guide? The link isn't working for me for some reason, but I'm more than willing to google-fu it. Crap, I keep forgetting that pasting links into this forum doesn't work (since in every other forum it does).
Here you go.
Personally I wouldn't want to lose magus spells at all. But if you're not worried about high level spells, then go for it.
I definitely wouldn't waste the arcane on close range arcana--especially when you can already do what you want with other magus spells as Fruian pointed out.
You'll probably want a trait to make stealth a class skill (that is assuming you stay straight magus), but obviously if you dip (more like split) rogue, it won't be so necessary.
Lastly, the biggest flaw I see is that waylayer doesn't say that you get to act in the surprise round. It just gives you a bonus to init if you get to act in the surprise round. And even if you do somehow get to always act in the surprise round (not from waylayer), that's only beneficial if there is a surprise round. Just because something might have an ability to always act in a surprise round, doesn't mean that ability forces one to happen if it doesn't exist.
*Waylayer gets the ability to always act in the surprise round at level 8.
claudekennilol wrote: Personally I wouldn't want to lose magus spells at all. But if you're not worried about high level spells, then go for it.
I definitely wouldn't waste the arcane on close range arcana--especially when you can already do what you want with other magus spells as Fruian pointed out.
You'll probably want a trait to make stealth a class skill (that is assuming you stay straight magus), but obviously if you dip (more like split) rogue, it won't be so necessary.
Lastly, the biggest flaw I see is that waylayer doesn't say that you get to act in the surprise round. It just gives you a bonus to init if you get to act in the surprise round. And even if you do somehow get to always act in the surprise round (not from waylayer), that's only beneficial if there is a surprise round. Just because something might have an ability to always act in a surprise round, doesn't mean that ability forces one to happen if it doesn't exist.
*Waylayer gets the ability to always act in the surprise round at level 8.
I misread the class. Yeah, it's not so nice. I think I'm going to stick with dex, even though STR is a bit better on paper.
Given that I'm doing PFS, here's the lvl 12 build I think I'm going to settle on:
1) Kensai (Weapon Finesse)
2) Kensai
3) Kensai (Whip Mastery)(Wand Wielder)
4) Sohei (Martial Proficiencies, Surprise Round, Combat Reflexes, AC bonus, Improved Unarmed Strike)
5) Kensai (Rime Spell)
6) Kensai (Bonus: Agile Maneuvers)
7) Kensai (Improved Initiative)(Maneuver Mastery)
8) Kensai
9) Kensai (Improved WHip Mastery)
10) Kensai (Arcana: Familiar?)
11) Kensai (Feat: Combat expertise?)
12) Kensai
Sohei I think I'll stick with. Sure, I can't really take advantage of flurry, but that one level of the monk archetype does give me +2 to all saves, two bonus feats (Improved Unarmed Strike and probably Combat Reflexes), Always act in the surprise round, and I get my martial proficiencies back. All in all I think it's a decent trade for one level of magus class features.
I'm now concerned about feat selection. I've essentially left the maneuver feats off the build, which feels wrong. But... the improve feats only give a +2 and allow me to avoid the AoO. Using a whip means I shouldn't be provoking terribly often anyways, and Agile Maneuvers & Maneuver Mastery will each add more of a bonus to all the maneuvers than one feat will. So why take it? Does that work?
Actually, you need Weapon Focus (whip) for Whip Mastery, so you're going to have to redo your feats somewhat.
Also don't forget the trait Magical Knack so you can keep your Caster Level to your hit die despite a dip (or 2) in different classes.
Genuine wrote: I've essentially left the maneuver feats off the build, which feels wrong. But... the improve feats only give a +2 and allow me to avoid the AoO. Using a whip means I shouldn't be provoking terribly often anyways, and Agile Maneuvers & Maneuver Mastery will each add more of a bonus to all the maneuvers than one feat will. So why take it? Does that work? Yes, that works.
The main question is, why kensai? The big benefits of kensai don't come online until level 11, and that's when PFS ends. In the meantime, you'll be stuck with diminished spellcasting and no spell recall, and that's a big downside.
Frankly I'd go for Hexcrafter, then either use a Conductive whip to add hexes to your attacks, or pick up Hex Strike. Or possibly Magic Warrior for at-will flight at level 3.
Note that a familiar exists that gives you +4 to initiative, so the familiar arcana is better than imp init. I don't see the point of combat expertise on this build, and you can possibly do without Imp Whip mastery as well. And instead of wand wielder (which conflicts with rime spell), Enforcer is a better choice.
Black Powder Chocobo wrote: Actually, you need Weapon Focus (whip) for Whip Mastery, so you're going to have to redo your feats somewhat.
Also don't forget the trait Magical Knack so you can keep your Caster Level to your hit die despite a dip (or 2) in different classes.
The kensai gets free weapon focus at level 1. So that's covered.
Traits... the problem is that I also need magical lineage. Having the free Rime spell seems more valuable than +1 to my caster level. I also don't particularly want to buy a new book just to use Wayang Spellhunter. The other trait will probably be reactionary.
Genuine wrote: The kensai gets free weapon focus at level 1. So that's covered. You get a bonus feat in exchange for lots of spells... that's not such a good trade.
Quote: Traits... the problem is that I also need magical lineage. Having the free Rime spell seems more valuable than +1 to my caster level. That is correct. +1 caster level is primarily for all those "1d6 damage per level" spells. If those aren't your main strategy, other traits are better.
Kurald Galain wrote: The main question is, why kensai? The big benefits of kensai don't come online until level 11, and that's when PFS ends. In the meantime, you'll be stuck with diminished spellcasting and no spell recall, and that's a big downside.
Frankly I'd go for Hexcrafter, then either use a Conductive whip to add hexes to your attacks, or pick up Hex Strike. Or possibly Magic Warrior for at-will flight at level 3.
Note that a familiar exists that gives you +4 to initiative, so the familiar arcana is better than imp init. I don't see the point of combat expertise on this build, and you can possibly do without Imp Whip mastery as well. And instead of wand wielder (which conflicts with rime spell), Enforcer is a better choice.
A few reasons. Kensai gives two feats for free: Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus. Also, in my other Magus I think I hardly ever used spell recall, although the reduced spellcasting will hurt.
More importantly, I've got another PFS magus at level 12. He was a hexcrafter/blackblade (back when that combo was legal)(I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with him if I ever get the opportunity to play eyes of 10). That Magus was a pretty standard shocking grasp stregth magus. I wanted to do something different this time - hence the manuever magus, dex, and different archetype.
Magic warrior is attractive, but it's not up on the SRD yet and I haven't had a chance to look through the book.
A couple of things...
Check out Dirty Fighting as an alternative to Combat Expertise.
You only need Agile Maneuvers if you're planning to do maneuvers without your whip. When you're tripping with the whip, you can use Weapon Finesse. You've got the level of Sohei, so maybe you're thinking for grapple or whatever, but I don't think it's worth a feat for something situational like that.
To me, Brawler is a better dip than Monk, if you have the ACG. You don't lose BAB, and Martial Flexibility is amazing, especially on a maneuver build (just pick up Agile maneuvers when you need it, or the Improved whatever feat) and you get several uses with a 1 level dip. Sohei has several nice things, though, so whatever your preference is.
I'd look at something like this:
1) Kensai (Weapon Finesse) (Bonus: Weapon Focus: Whip)
2) Kensai
3) Kensai (Whip Mastery)(Wand Wielder)
4) Brawler (Martial Flexibility, Martial Training, Improved Unarmed Strike)
5) Kensai (Rime Spell)
6) Kensai (Bonus: Combat Reflexes)
7) Kensai (Improved Whip Mastery)(Arcana: Familiar)
8) Kensai
9) Kensai (Martial Focus)
10) Kensai (Arcana: Accurate Strike)
11) Kensai (Deadly Swings)
12) Kansai
I wish there were a way to get to Difficult Swings earlier, but Whip takes so many feats. You can use Martial Flexibility to start picking it up at 9th, though.
You don't really need Combat Reflexes until you have Improved Whip Mastery. I wish there were some way to pick it up at 7th along with Improved Whip Mastery, to make room for Dirty Fighting, but I can't see one.
Brawler lets you take Improved Whip Mastery two levels early, though.
Maneuver Mastery doesn't do enough to justify taking. Especially with a level dip. It will, over an 11 level PFS career, only net you a +3 at 10th level, and a +2 when you take it at 7th. Take a familiar for the bonus to initiative instead. With a True Strike Wand, you're going to be putting up ridiculous trip numbers anyway.
You can use Martial Flexibility for so many things. Dedicated Adversary is a go to. If you don't have that book, you can start picking up Weapon Specialization at 8th (7th Magus). It's just incredibly useful.
I know you're looking at the AC bonus for Sohei, but how high is your Wisdom going to be? A +1 Haramaki is cheap, and it gives you a +2 AC with no arcane spell failure. It won't stack with Mage Armor, but it also doesn't conflict with Canny Defense, and you can put Spell Storing on it and still UMD a wand of Mage Armor if you want.
Accurate Strike vs Maneuver Master - Hitting Touch AC with your big spell at reach when you really need it to hit is better than a small bonus to trip.
EDIT: Alternately, if you don't want to go the Difficult Swings route, you could take Improved Familiar at 9th to pick up a Familiar that can actually use all of your wands. That's what I'm doing on my Kapenia Dancer Trip Magus build. One issue that I've run into is switching wands. I have to drop whatever's in hand to take out something new. So the Familiar will both scoop up any wands that I drop, and also be able to use them.
In that situation, level 11 Feat could be Dirty Fighting, or Greater Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization.
You're right. Dirty tricks is a straight up upgrade to combat expertise. And I have access to the book. Sold. :D
You're probably right about maneuver mastery.
Difficult swings requires weapon training in the relevant weapon. Doesn't that make it a fighter-only feat? How are you getting weapon training?
I'll admit that 95% of why I want Sohei is for the 'always act in the surprise round' thing. (You may have guessed this, given that my first plan was for a waylayer, until it was pointed out that I had misread the class). The other stuff is more a side justification (although the bonuses to all saves and the combat expertise is delicious). I wish that there was a 1-2 level dip somewhere that let me get it on a full BAB class, but oh well.
I've also considered taking a one level dip in Cleric (Divine Strategist). With broad study I'd have some fun touch spells to pick from, and there are a few interesting lvl 1 domain powers in a dip.
Martial Focus lets you count as having Weapon Training for Weapon Mastery feats.
Genuine wrote: claudekennilol wrote: Personally I wouldn't want to lose magus spells at all. But if you're not worried about high level spells, then go for it.
I definitely wouldn't waste the arcane on close range arcana--especially when you can already do what you want with other magus spells as Fruian pointed out.
You'll probably want a trait to make stealth a class skill (that is assuming you stay straight magus), but obviously if you dip (more like split) rogue, it won't be so necessary.
Lastly, the biggest flaw I see is that waylayer doesn't say that you get to act in the surprise round. It just gives you a bonus to init if you get to act in the surprise round. And even if you do somehow get to always act in the surprise round (not from waylayer), that's only beneficial if there is a surprise round. Just because something might have an ability to always act in a surprise round, doesn't mean that ability forces one to happen if it doesn't exist.
*Waylayer gets the ability to always act in the surprise round at level 8.
I misread the class. Yeah, it's not so nice. I think I'm going to stick with dex, even though STR is a bit better on paper.
Given that I'm doing PFS, here's the lvl 12 build I think I'm going to settle on:
1) Kensai (Weapon Finesse)
2) Kensai
3) Kensai (Whip Mastery)(Wand Wielder)
4) Sohei (Martial Proficiencies, Surprise Round, Combat Reflexes, AC bonus, Improved Unarmed Strike)
5) Kensai (Rime Spell)
6) Kensai (Bonus: Agile Maneuvers)
7) Kensai (Improved Initiative)(Maneuver Mastery)
8) Kensai
9) Kensai (Improved WHip Mastery)
10) Kensai (Arcana: Familiar?)
11) Kensai (Feat: Combat expertise?)
12) Kensai
Sohei I think I'll stick with. Sure, I can't really take advantage of flurry, but that one level of the monk archetype does give me +2 to all saves, two bonus feats (Improved Unarmed Strike and probably Combat Reflexes), Always act in the surprise round, and I get my martial proficiencies back. All in all I think it's a decent trade... 1. take also HexCrafter , the spell recall lose for a hex is well worth it, especially as you are low on spells.
2. take evil eye
3. take hex strike = -2 \-4 NO SAVE as one of your attacks... WOW on AC, saves and more.
4. add enforcer to the the rime trick.
5. why Sohei ? you dont care about mount feats or Flurry in armor.... if 1 monk level, take "of many styles" for crane style and 1 more.
666bender wrote: 1. take also HexCrafter , the spell recall lose for a hex is well worth it, especially as you are low on spells.
2. take evil eye
3. take hex strike = -2 \-4 NO SAVE as one of your attacks... WOW on AC, saves and more.
4. add enforcer to the the rime trick.
5. why Sohei ? you dont care about mount feats or Flurry in armor.... if 1 monk level, take "of many styles" for crane style and 1 more.
I don't really want to do Hexcrafter, I've done him before.
As for sohei, the main reason I want to take him is his first level 'always act in the surprise round' ability. Getting martial proficiencies back to the kensai is also nice, as is the bonus to saves and the bonus feat.
I'd consider another class/archetype that offers that ability in the first level or two, but the only ones I'm aware of is the diviner wizard and the Divine Strategist cleric.
Conceptually speaking, I'm ok with a one level dip. A two level is acceptable; three level is maybe worth considering but needs to offer more thats useful than just going in the surprise round.
Here's where I'm at now:
1) Kensai (Weapon Finesse)
2) Kensai
3) Kensai (Whip Mastery)(Wand Wielder)
4) Sohei (Martial Proficiencies, Surprise Round, Combat Reflexes, AC bonus, Improved Unarmed Strike)
5) Kensai (Rime Spell)
6) Kensai (Bonus: Dirty fighting)
7) Kensai (Improved Initiative)(Familiar)
8) Kensai
9) Kensai (Improved Whip Mastery)
10) Kensai (Arcana:?)
11) Kensai (Feat: Improved Familiar (Probably))
12) Kensai
I may or may not replace dirty fighting or improved iniative with Enforcer. I'll base that on how game play works out. Same with the decision on the lvl 9 (10) arcana.
Genuine wrote: As for sohei, the main reason I want to take him is his first level 'always act in the surprise round' ability. Getting martial proficiencies back to the kensai is also nice, as is the bonus to saves and the bonus feat. You're still misunderstanding that ability. You only get to act in the surprise round if there is a surprise round. That ability does not force a surprise round to happen if one wasn't going to happen.
claudekennilol wrote: Genuine wrote: As for sohei, the main reason I want to take him is his first level 'always act in the surprise round' ability. Getting martial proficiencies back to the kensai is also nice, as is the bonus to saves and the bonus feat. You're still misunderstanding that ability. You only get to act in the surprise round if there is a surprise round. That ability does not force a surprise round to happen if one wasn't going to happen. Oh, I'm aware that there's an 'if' there. I also know that it isn't some sort of all-powerful game breaking ability. It is, however, lots of fun. And I want to build around it.
I could give a speech about how often surprise rounds come up in my local lodge, but all that matters is that it remains a feature that I want to build around. The goal is that when there is a surprise round, I act there with a high probability of going before the threat. I also want options that make that action meaningful whether or not I'm aware of the threat (A pure rogue or vigilante doesn't really have those options). I also want to be reasonably effective during the encounter itself. Don't forget that the optimization standards are set by the PFS scenarios and un-modified modules and APs, so there is a relatively low bar needed for capability. Even with crappy pre-gens groups tend to handle encounters easily (with a few exceptions).
In other words, I'm looking for a high init (Which means High dex, and if possible class options that further boost it).
High initiative isn't a good enough reason on its own to justify high dex, so I need a build that operates from dex.
Meaningful options without being directly aware of a threat pretty much requires spells or ranged attacks. A purely martial melee character can't do much but ready an action and hope he's in the right place. A pure-ranged character can still pretty much just ready an action, but at least he can be confident that'll be useful.
Personal reasons tells me I don't want a hexcrafter or blackblade magus. Same reasons says no gunslinger, sorcerer, wizard, or arcanist.
With those strictures, a maneuver magus/sohei is where I've ended up. I considered a zen-archer monk, but feel like that would play too much like my gunslinger. An archer cleric is a possibility, but the magus just feels like it'd be more fun. I strongly considered a kineticist build, as well as a vigilante build, but I didn't like the trade-offs much. (The vigilante build is strongly attractive, as it offers much more when out of combat, but it still looses out when it comes to in-combat options).
My first PFS character was a Whip Kensai Magus. He was very successful. I went human and primary abilities were intelegence and strength. Going strength keeps attack up without wasting a feat on finesse and brings up the sad damage of the whip. I focused on tripping. Eventually got Str 20, Int 24,greater trip at +25 (+32 with arcane accuracy). Each trip provokes and he up to gets 11 AoOs. Everything that provokes within 10 feet gets put on its back. I did the wand wielder, want of true strike trick as well, but mostly for use with quick reposition. Move the enemy 25 feet into the middle of the party, trip him provoking from everyone, and use my AoO to disarm. Another scenario can't involve the wand of true strike but quick reposition a stray enemy into a tighter group and fireball.
Kurald Galain wrote: Genuine wrote: The kensai gets free weapon focus at level 1. So that's covered. You get a bonus feat in exchange for lots of spells... that's not such a good trade. But he gets that bonus feat at 1st level. No other Magus can take Weapon Focus at 1st level because of the +1 BAB requirement. If you want to take Whip Mastery at 3rd level (and for a whip build you definitely do) you need that early Weapon Focus.
Since no one has mentioned it yet, I'll mention picking up a Wand of Blade Lash as well as the Truestrike Wand. With wielding a whip, the extra reach when using Blade Lash (20 feet instead of 15) isn't really as big of an appeal, and the +10 bonus isn't as good as the +20 from Truestrike, however, Blade Lash provides a free trip attempt as part of the casting of the spell, so that means using Spell Combat you can trip someone (at an effective +8) and then get a full round of attacks off against them while they are prone.
I use Blade Lash instead of Truestrike on my Kapenia Dancer, and I haven't run into significant issues beating CMDs yet. I'm sure that might change as I encounter more multi-legged creatures. It's great for the Kapenia Dancer build, because it gets around the lack of reach on the bladed scarf (though I do have Elasticity now when I need it).
Also, since you want to build around being able to act in the surprise round, I'll suggest the Sandals of Quick Reaction, which will let you take a full round action (move and standard) in the surprise round. I'll throw the caveat out that I have these on my Ninja, and have maybe once gotten any meaningful use out of them. In a campaign where I could sneak up to someone unsuspecting, they'd be great. Stealth up, then full attack sneak attack in the surprise round, then if I win initiative full attack sneak attack again. But in practice in PFS, that situation has never come up.
The only other dip I can think of that might get the act in a surprise round ability is an Arcanist taking the School Savant archetype. That seems like a less efficient dip than Wizard, though, given the Magus and Wizard crossover for INT as a casting stat.
Yeah... spells and items. Of course the ring of deflection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, headband of Int and belt of dex (& con). Ioun stones. Lots of wands; Wands of true strike, mage armor, infernal healing, blade lash, vanish, and more. And a handy haversack of course.
For armor there's always the Haramaki and Mithril Buckler to put useful enhancements on, if and when I have cash for it.
There are lots of useful enhancements for the whip, and I may end up just getting several (this is my Ghost touch whip, this is my Agile whip, this is my spell storing whip, etc.) Two +2 weapons are cheaper than one +3. The one real problem with weapon selection is going to be the fact that I can't really make whips out of Adamantine, Cold Iron, or Silver. I may just end up applying a blanch to a few back up whips. :D I like the idea of this table introduction: I'm the dude with leather rope hanging off him everywhere.
Sandals of Quick Reaction are nice, unfortunately so are Boots of Striding.
I'll almost have to get gloves of Storing. I wish there was a way to make weaponwand permanent.
Goz Masks are wonderful too. I dream of someday playing in a party where everyone can see through mist and smoke without penalty.
And that aughta be all my gold for plenty of time.
Genuine wrote: Yeah... spells and items. Of course the ring of deflection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, headband of Int and belt of dex (& con). Ioun stones. Lots of wands; Wands of true strike, mage armor, infernal healing, blade lash, vanish, and more. And a handy haversack of course.
For armor there's always the Haramaki and Mithril Buckler to put useful enhancements on, if and when I have cash for it.
There are lots of useful enhancements for the whip, and I may end up just getting several (this is my Ghost touch whip, this is my Agile whip, this is my spell storing whip, etc.) Two +2 weapons are cheaper than one +3. The one real problem with weapon selection is going to be the fact that I can't really make whips out of Adamantine, Cold Iron, or Silver. I may just end up applying a blanch to a few back up whips. :D I like the idea of this table introduction: I'm the dude with leather rope hanging off him everywhere.
Sandals of Quick Reaction are nice, unfortunately so are Boots of Striding.
I'll almost have to get gloves of Storing. I wish there was a way to make weaponwand permanent.
Goz Masks are wonderful too. I dream of someday playing in a party where everyone can see through mist and smoke without penalty.
And that aughta be all my gold for plenty of time.
Scorpion Whips Friend.
You can make them out of Cold Iron or Adamantine.
If I understand the revised Scorpion Whip correctly, I *think* you need two Exotic Weapon Proficiencies to effectively use it. EWP: Whip is not enough on its own. You also need EWP: Scorpion Whip. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Ferious Thune wrote: If I understand the revised Scorpion Whip correctly, I *think* you need two Exotic Weapon Proficiencies to effectively use it. EWP: Whip is not enough on its own. You also need EWP: Scorpion Whip. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. That is my understanding as well, which is why I've avoided it in this build.
Ferious Thune wrote: If I understand the revised Scorpion Whip correctly, I *think* you need two Exotic Weapon Proficiencies to effectively use it. EWP: Whip is not enough on its own. You also need EWP: Scorpion Whip. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. Well there are ways around it:
Half-Elf with Exotic Weapon Proficiency-Whip...with Kensai Proficiency you can pick up Scorpion whips. (This also gives you access to the Elfs 1/6 new arcana FCB)
Half-Orc With the City Raised Alternate Racial. Gives Whip Proficiency. With Kensai Grab Scorpion Whip.
I personally Like the Scorpion whip. Season 5 was the Year of Cold Iron Mandatory. Season 6 brought in the Season of Adamantine weapons. If your Playing in an area that plays all seasons it is a benefit to have access to Different Material Whips. I personally Make my Adamantine Weapon my main weapon and pull out my MW cold Iron whip when I run across Cold Iron DR.
Merm7th wrote: My first PFS character was a Whip Kensai Magus. He was very successful. I went human and primary abilities were intelegence and strength. Going strength keeps attack up without wasting a feat on finesse and brings up the sad damage of the whip. I focused on tripping. Eventually got Str 20, Int 24,greater trip at +25 (+32 with arcane accuracy). Each trip provokes and he up to gets 11 AoOs. Everything that provokes within 10 feet gets put on its back. I did the wand wielder, want of true strike trick as well, but mostly for use with quick reposition. Move the enemy 25 feet into the middle of the party, trip him provoking from everyone, and use my AoO to disarm. Another scenario can't involve the wand of true strike but quick reposition a stray enemy into a tighter group and fireball. Str kensai is wrong , yes 2 feats are a lot. But , low armor (until mage armor. Is there ) low spells (so less. Deflection tricks like blur) are harsh.
Kensai is only worth it at high levels and on critical builds
666bender wrote: Merm7th wrote: My first PFS character was a Whip Kensai Magus. He was very successful. I went human and primary abilities were intelegence and strength. Going strength keeps attack up without wasting a feat on finesse and brings up the sad damage of the whip. I focused on tripping. Eventually got Str 20, Int 24,greater trip at +25 (+32 with arcane accuracy). Each trip provokes and he up to gets 11 AoOs. Everything that provokes within 10 feet gets put on its back. I did the wand wielder, want of true strike trick as well, but mostly for use with quick reposition. Move the enemy 25 feet into the middle of the party, trip him provoking from everyone, and use my AoO to disarm. Another scenario can't involve the wand of true strike but quick reposition a stray enemy into a tighter group and fireball. Str kensai is wrong , yes 2 feats are a lot. But , low armor (until mage armor. Is there ) low spells (so less. Deflection tricks like blur) are harsh.
Kensai is only worth it at high leveils and on critical builds Strength kensai with a whip is awesome. Play it smart. You have 15' reach. Character didn't take damage till after 3 lvl. I still had 13 dex that eventually went up to 15. You get Intelegence to ac. At 4th lvl, ac was 19. Never used mage armor. Can't base a crit build around the whip.
Played non-pfs kensai with Katana, focusing on crits, was strength Kenai as well. Dex never seemed a viable build for a kensai, especially if you want to do non-spell damage. Kensai run out of spells with the diminished spellcasting and no spell recall. When that happens, you power attack with arcane accuracy. Two-hand it if they have DR.
Merm7th wrote: 666bender wrote: Merm7th wrote: My first PFS character was a Whip Kensai Magus. He was very successful. I went human and primary abilities were intelegence and strength. Going strength keeps attack up without wasting a feat on finesse and brings up the sad damage of the whip. I focused on tripping. Eventually got Str 20, Int 24,greater trip at +25 (+32 with arcane accuracy). Each trip provokes and he up to gets 11 AoOs. Everything that provokes within 10 feet gets put on its back. I did the wand wielder, want of true strike trick as well, but mostly for use with quick reposition. Move the enemy 25 feet into the middle of the party, trip him provoking from everyone, and use my AoO to disarm. Another scenario can't involve the wand of true strike but quick reposition a stray enemy into a tighter group and fireball. Str kensai is wrong , yes 2 feats are a lot. But , low armor (until mage armor. Is there ) low spells (so less. Deflection tricks like blur) are harsh.
Kensai is only worth it at high leveils and on critical builds Strength kensai with a whip is awesome. Play it smart. You have 15' reach. Character didn't take damage till after 3 lvl. I still had 13 dex that eventually went up to 15. You get Intelegence to ac. At 4th lvl, ac was 19. Never used mage armor. Can't base a crit build around the whip.
Played non-pfs kensai with Katana, focusing on crits, was strength Kenai as well. Dex never seemed a viable build for a kensai, especially if you want to do non-spell damage. Kensai run out of spells with the diminished spellcasting and no spell recall. When that happens, you power attack with arcane accuracy. Two-hand it if they have DR. And of the 2, which was more efficient ? The katana 's the whip? The. ×2. Crit every other attack vs greater reach?
666bender wrote: Merm7th wrote: 666bender wrote: Merm7th wrote: My first PFS character was a Whip Kensai Magus. He was very successful. I went human and primary abilities were intelegence and strength. Going strength keeps attack up without wasting a feat on finesse and brings up the sad damage of the whip. I focused on tripping. Eventually got Str 20, Int 24,greater trip at +25 (+32 with arcane accuracy). Each trip provokes and he up to gets 11 AoOs. Everything that provokes within 10 feet gets put on its back. I did the wand wielder, want of true strike trick as well, but mostly for use with quick reposition. Move the enemy 25 feet into the middle of the party, trip him provoking from everyone, and use my AoO to disarm. Another scenario can't involve the wand of true strike but quick reposition a stray enemy into a tighter group and fireball. The whip wielder could
Str kensai is wrong , yes 2 feats are a lot. But , low armor (until mage armor. Is there ) low spells (so less. Deflection tricks like blur) are harsh.
Kensai is only worth it at high leveils and on critical builds Strength kensai with a whip is awesome. Play it smart. You have 15' reach. Character didn't take damage till after 3 lvl. I still had 13 dex that eventually went up to 15. You get Intelegence to ac. At 4th lvl, ac was 19. Never used mage armor. Can't base a crit build around the whip.
Played non-pfs kensai with Katana, focusing on crits, was strength Kenai as well. Dex never seemed a viable build for a kensai, especially if you want to do non-spell damage. Kensai run out of spells with the diminished spellcasting and no spell recall. When that happens, you power attack with arcane accuracy. Two-hand it if they have DR. And of the 2, which was more efficient ? The katana 's the whip? The. ×2. Crit every other attack vs greater reach? I'd say the whip. The katana wielder could kill a single enemy in one round. The whip wielder can trip and disarm 4 enemies in one round causing them to provoke from the rest of the party. He also has 7 more AoOs for when they try to stand or pick up their weapons. He can also kill in one round if he needs to. And all this is out of harms way.
What's the knsai has to offer to non crit builds ? Half orc or half elf. Can get the whip for free. Weapon focus isn't worth the lower casting....
Kensai is amazing For the free crit as fighter role
Out of curiosity, where are the 11 AoOs coming from? I'm trying to figure out on a Strength build how you get that many. I don't doubt it. I'm just curious for my own benefit.
Ferious Thune wrote: Out of curiosity, where are the 11 AoOs coming from? I'm trying to figure out on a Strength build how you get that many. I don't doubt it. I'm just curious for my own benefit. Kensai gets +1 OA per int bonus. Of course, since this is way more than you'll ever need, that's not really a perk.
Kurald Galain wrote: Ferious Thune wrote: Out of curiosity, where are the 11 AoOs coming from? I'm trying to figure out on a Strength build how you get that many. I don't doubt it. I'm just curious for my own benefit. Kensai gets +1 OA per int bonus. Of course, since this is way more than you'll ever need, that's not really a perk. Kurald Galain is correct. 8 from int, 2 from combat reflexes, and the 1 base AoO. Kensai can eventually draw their weapon as a free action in order to make an AoO. Party got ambushed by 5 charging enemies. From empty handed I drew my whip, tripped and disarmed the first guy, then did the same to the remaining 4. For the most part they spent the surprise round laying down at our feet and disarming themselves.
Oh, wow, I didn't read that far down the Kensai's abilities. That brings up the question, then, since Iajutsu at 7th lets a Kensai make AoOs while flat-footed, and since the OPs build isn't getting Improved Whip Mastery until 9th level anyway, and at 9th level he gets extra AoOs equal to his Intelligence modifier, why does he need Combat Reflexes at all? He only threatens at 5-feet from levels 3-8. Is he likely to get more than one AoO/round?
I guess as long as he's sticking with Sohei, it's one of the better bonus feats, but not needing it might open up other options.
666bender wrote: What's the knsai has to offer to non crit builds ? Half orc or half elf. Can get the whip for free. Weapon focus isn't worth the lower casting.... But getting Weapon Focus at 1st level means that you can take Whip Mastery at 3rd rather than 5th. That's worth a lot.
One option that works with other Magus archetypes is a 1st level dip Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler. You get EWP (Whip) for free and the Avenger Finesse class feature gets you Swashbuckler Finesse with whips. Since it grants full BAB, you can also take Weapon Focus at 1st level.
Ferious Thune wrote: ...
He only threatens at 5-feet from levels 3-8.
...
His whip won't threaten at all until he takes Improved Whip Mastery at 9th level. So no AoOs with a whip for the first 8 levels. Were you referring to his IUS?
Yeah, sorry. I wasn't clear about that. IUS threatens 5-feet, whip not until 9th. EDIT: And that should be 4th-8th.
For the record, I'll be taking improved whip mastery at level 7, not 9. I miscalculated the BAB for when I'd be able to. Improved Init will come at 9 instead. Sohei is can really come any time before or at 7 - I could qualify for IWM at level 6 if I was pure Magus up to then, but I'd have to pay the PP to retrain a feat.
And level 3 is a handy break point for the magus levels.
As for waiting until level 7, well, there's plenty I can do until then. I'll probably be spamming long arm fairly frequently anyways.
Yeah, I misread Kensei again. Superior Reflexes is the level 11 ability, not 9, so with the dip it's out of the range of normal PFS, and you'd want to pick up Combat Reflexes at some point..
With a dip into a 3/4 BAB class, you won't qualify for Improved Whip Mastery at 7th. You need BAB +5, which you won't get until 8th. That's part of why I suggested Brawler instead of Monk.
BAB by level:
1) Kensai 1) +0
2) Kensei 2) +1
3) Kensei 3) +2
4) Sohei 1) +2
5) Kensei 4) +3
6) Kensei 5) +3
7) Kensei 6) +4
8) Kensei 7) +5 * You could retrain into it here for 5 prestige and 400 gold.
9) Kensei 8) +6 Or taking it here is your first opportunity with a normal feat.
10) Kensei 9) +6
11) Kensei 10) +7
Ferious Thune wrote:
With a dip into a 3/4 BAB class, you won't qualify for Improved Whip Mastery at 7th. You need BAB +5, which you won't get until 8th. That's part of why I suggested Brawler instead of Monk.
I have a mental block where I check BAB on a chart and read the strong saves instead.
I also really wish there was a full BAB class out there with the surprise round bonus. :/
Ferious Thune wrote: Oh, wow, I didn't read that far down the Kensai's abilities. That brings up the question, then, since Iajutsu at 7th lets a Kensai make AoOs while flat-footed, and since the OPs build isn't getting Improved Whip Mastery until 9th level anyway, and at 9th level he gets extra AoOs equal to his Intelligence modifier, why does he need Combat Reflexes at all? He doesn't. Effectively, all the lower-level abilities of the kensai can be duplicated by feats, which is why the archetype looks better than it actually is (at least until level 11 or so, when its critical feats kick in).
Kurald Galain wrote: Ferious Thune wrote: Oh, wow, I didn't read that far down the Kensai's abilities. That brings up the question, then, since Iajutsu at 7th lets a Kensai make AoOs while flat-footed, and since the OPs build isn't getting Improved Whip Mastery until 9th level anyway, and at 9th level he gets extra AoOs equal to his Intelligence modifier, why does he need Combat Reflexes at all? He doesn't. Effectively, all the lower-level abilities of the kensai can be duplicated by feats, which is why the archetype looks better than it actually is (at least until level 11 or so, when its critical feats kick in). The critical feats mean nothing when using a whip....
666bender wrote: The critical feats mean nothing when using a whip.... Precisely. That's why my earlier post suggested different archetypes, because it's not nice to have diminished spellcasting and no spell recall.
If the goal is to get the build online as early as possible, dip into a class that gets a bonus feat at L1, then retrain it later.
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