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This is likely to sound more inflammatory then I, think that I, mean it. Looking at a lot of these threads, I have begun to wonder about something. Are we relying to much on the notion that growing your lodge will solve your problems? Are we settling up an unrealistic expectation that growing your lodge is always possible? Are we too quick to dismiss problems that mainly affect older players because we assume that there is always someone to replace them? I feel that these are possible issues that are going undiscussed. I feel that it is time to look at them.
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I hear ya. My local lodge struggles to get enough people to pull off 1 table every other week. For a while we tried to add in older scenarios, but those tables basically never went off, while the new scenario had a higher chance of happening. This has led to some people coming 3-4 times and not ever getting to play their actual character and get tired of always playing a pregen.
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Please expand on "possible issues."
I have a feeling this is related to the (current) replay thread but without examples I don't know what kind of dismissing you think might be going on.
The main thing is replays and geek Sudoku. With those who have been around unable to get credit anymore, or at least struggling to. I also wonder if smaller lodges suffer more from the lack of gameday GM support.
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Please expand on "possible issues."
I have a feeling this is related to the (current) replay thread but without examples I don't know what kind of dismissing you think might be going on.
I think you could also argue the changes to pregen credit assignment are a big lodge vs small lodge thing.
My local lodge runs 3 to 5 tables every other week in a town of 3000. I'm not sure what size that is, but I certainly can't imagine it growing any more than it already has, and it feels to me like a small lodge.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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This is something I've noticed too... There is a huge difference between a lodge that only has enough players to pull off a single table every other week, and a lodge like mine that has 15+ tables of play opportunity every week, flex tables for old-timers to help them play underplayed scenarios, and over eight local conventions.
Unwittingly, I've seen my lodge cause friction due to innocently meant questions like, "Why don't you have two tables, a low and a high-tier, so you can grow your base?" I know that this can seem like a chicken and an egg thing... You can't have real growth without a second table. You can't have a second table without real growth.
I've been thinking of putting together a thread on here about how to rebuild, and with ideas to grow your lodge, but I do recognize that it's harder in small towns or areas of the world where the gaming hobby may be viewed with suspicion by the general populace. Part of the reason that I haven't is that I worry that it would be received badly by those who feel constrained in their current location.
Still, there is no doubt in my mind that any PFS Lodge needs a critical mass of active players that exceed the number of games offered each week, so that it can deal with the intermittent players that PFS structure allows for. It also needs multiple tables so that your lodge can retain old players and attract new ones. Furthermore, it needs a core group of people willing and able to GM. Not just one, but several, and preferably a rotating crew so that GMs can sometimes play.
Hmm
I've been thinking of putting together a thread on here about how to rebuild, and with ideas to grow your lodge, but I do recognize that it's harder in small towns or areas of the world where the gaming hobby may be viewed with suspicion by the general populace. Part of the reason that I haven't is that I worry that it would be received badly by those who feel constrained in their current location.
Hmm
You also could look into expanding the lodge into more periphery areas of its existing base foot print or how to, too. Which is something I'd be interested in seeing, since that's pretty much me for your lodge. :/
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In the same vein of "probably going to sound more inflammatory than I mean it to be" I would suggest that it isn't necessarily that the worldwide Pathfinder community is dismissing smaller locations, but rather suggesting that they should set different expectations than highly populated areas.
Meaning that it's OK to only run two tables a month (the new scenarios) if that's all the area can support. As long as no one is being turned away from those tables for lack of GMs the area is healthy.
The larger areas have the same issues affecting the long-term players. It's just not as noticeable because there are often enough newer players to support two tables a week (or more) of older scenarios. The long-term players aren't showing up to those tables either - except as GMs. It may be affecting a higher percentage of the small-area players, but it's no different on an individual basis than the large areas. There's a big difference between "2/3 of the players here can only play new scenarios" and "the lodge is dying because we can't replay."
So don't sweat it if you're only scheduling 2 different scenarios a month while BigCityPFS is scheduling 12. That's not a poor reflection on your Lodge, it's a measure of scale. The long-term players in both areas are still playing the same number of scenarios a month.
And once you get 4-6 newer players around (however long that takes), ask the long-term players to GM the older scenarios for them. Grow gradually, don't feel you have to have as many players or as many sessions as the big areas.
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That post was my "change your mindset" post, but it's being followed by a "there certainly are challenges" post.
Small lodges do face challenges, but they don't have silver bullet solutions. Most of them are tied to the fact that smaller lodges tend to be in smaller urban (or even rural) areas.
For a small lodge to survive without steady growth, the key thing is having good comraderie. That means getting along well and sticking together. So if two sessions a month aren't enough for that, plan other activities. Plan the modules for a week each month. Run Adventure Paths at your game days. Not just the sanctioned parts, run the whole thing! That's months more time to play Pathfinder.
There are challenges. And we want to help. We just want to be sure that the cure doesn't turn out to be worse than the disease.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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You also could look into expanding the lodge into more periphery areas of its existing base foot print or how to, too. Which is something I'd be interested in seeing, since that's pretty much me for your lodge. :/
Dhampir, can you go into a little more detail about what you mean? Are you asking if the Minnesota Lodge can expand its coverage to some of the more outlying suburbs and small towns?
So don't sweat it if you're only scheduling 2 different scenarios a month while BigCityPFS is scheduling 12. That's not a poor reflection on your Lodge, it's a measure of scale. The long-term players in both areas are still playing the same number of scenarios a month.
And once you get 4-6 newer players around (however long that takes), ask the long-term players to GM the older scenarios for them. Grow gradually, don't feel you have to have as many players or as many sessions as the big areas.
Brilliantly said, Kevin. I do agree that the long-term players in both areas suffer the same problem. In fact, the older hardcore in big city areas probably run out of scenarios faster than those in smaller areas where play opportunities may be more limited.
Hmm
Dhampir, can you go into a little more detail about what you mean? Are you asking if the Minnesota Lodge can expand its coverage to some of the more outlying suburbs and small towns?Hmm
Yes and no; Yes, I'd like to see something about the MN Lodge expanding beyond it's current reach to more outlying suburbs and smaller towns. But no, your new thread/analysis doesn't have to focus on just that, it could look into that issue in general. I've just got that extra interest in the MN side of the equation because it'd affect me.
Didn't mean to derail you, just trying to say I'd be interested in seeing someone look into that part too.
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Why it's hard to get to higher tier in a small venue.
o lets say you've got 4 players that have been chugging along and 3 of them have level 4 characters, and one has a level 3 character. Along comes a new player. Rather than have the new player play up at tier 4-5 (something discouraged by the guide) The 4th level players are responsible and make brand new characters. The player with the 3rd level character thinks hmmm I'm going to be playing with a bunch of lvl 1s I might as well make a new character as well instead of playing down.
These players have a jolly time for about 2 months (say 8-9 scenarios) with little bobby only showing up half time. Then another new player shows up. The original players now have 2 lvl 3/4 characters, the previous new player has a 4th level character and little bobby has a 2nd level character. Well little bobby can keep playing his character but the other players make new 1st level characters to play with the new players.
Basically if you're only running 1 table, and are welcoming of new players you'll never get to tier 5-9 and eventually run out of scenarios for the consistent players to play.
My intuition and math says its quite hard to maintain a small (read < 2 regular tables) PFS lodge. I don't think expanding replay is necessarily the way to do this, and please don't take opposition to replay as dismissal to the problems of small lodges.
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all. the. time.
"Just avoid that player/dm
"You don't need replay, just play at the other table/next week
"you don't need boons for game days. If you need boons just turn your game day into a convention!
"you can get up and leave, what's the problem?
"what do you mean you can't organize something that big, stop being lazy
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I think that the selective sample that is the forums plays a part of this. It is common for folks to assume that PFS looks the same everywwhere else as it does in their home location. Going to cons doesn't usually change that perception - cons are their own beast in many ways.
There are more active players in a large lodge than a small lodge by definition, so there are probably more forumites from large lodges than small lodges. I think most folks are genuinely trying to help others by sharing what has worked for them in their lodge. There is some merit in this - almost all large lodges have been small lodges at some point, so those folks have seen both sides of the fence. Then again, some folks have limitations that the rest of us don't know about that renders those solutions ineffective.
So, I don't think folks are ignoring small lodges on purpose - they're sharing what has worked for them. It's a good reminder, though, to keep in mind.
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One thing that might contribute to this situation is that the big lodges are already successful, almost by definition. The changes needed to keep a successful lodge successful should, by and large, be pretty easy to implement.
Small lodges, on the other hand, are small for all sorts of reasons. And if it was something easy that helped a lot of people, it probably would have been done already. Small lodges are more likely to be hit hard by one of the issues that would barely bother a bigger group--things like D&D5's popularity, or the new pregen condition clearing requirements, or the replay limits suddenly hitting two or three key players out of a group of 10.
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There's not a lot to do in Minnesota :-pa lodge like mine that has 15+ tables of play opportunity every week, flex tables for old-timers to help them play underplayed scenarios, and over eight local conventionsWhat on earth are they putting in the water in Minnesota?
Now, Hilary, that's a bit of an exaggeration in a metro area that has more theater seats per capita than New York City, more craft breweries than you can count, an amazing restaurant scene, and one of the highest per capita golf course ratios anywhere. Not to mention the often under-performing professional sports (except for women's basketball, but for some reason the Lynx still don't draw well).
Then there are all the wonderful lakes and other natural attractions.
Wow, we live in a GREAT state!
Oh, and we are one of the homes of role paying games, in case you don't remember ;)
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Now, Hilary, that's a bit of an exaggeration in a metro area that has more theater seats per capita than New York City,
Thats easy to do when all it takes is a love seat in the back of a pickup truck....
*ow ow ow ow...kidding.. ow ow ow...the viking helmet is pointy ow ow ow*
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There is an issue of "critical mass" that can have a big impact on how many tables you can reliably schedule and play each week. Once you get that magic number of motivated, dependable players and GMs that a regular schedule can be built around, most of your problems go away.
For small lodges, getting to that magic number (which I have no idea on what it might be. 6? 10? Anyone got a better guess than that?) is a lot harder. Just having one or two people move away or have "real world" issues can really ham-string a small table-top community (I've already seen that happen to some of the other table-top groups here in western NC). Some of it you just have to chalk up to good luck or serendipity. That's pretty much how I got involved in PFS, I moved to the right town and there was an operating PFS Lodge just waiting for someone like me to stumble upon them.....
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Please expand on "possible issues."
I have a feeling this is related to the (current) replay thread but without examples I don't know what kind of dismissing you think might be going on.
I think you could also argue the changes to pregen credit assignment are a big lodge vs small lodge thing.
My local lodge runs 3 to 5 tables every other week in a town of 3000. I'm not sure what size that is, but I certainly can't imagine it growing any more than it already has, and it feels to me like a small lodge.
That sounds like a lot of playing to me. Something like 8 tables a month? That's pretty close to what we usually end up doing in Pittsburgh, excepting months when we have a con.
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Its not easy to find smaller groups either. The game finder is unworkable , and you may not know that a small town in your area is within driving distance.
thats something i have tried to help but getting the word out would be very handy...
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Still, there is no doubt in my mind that any PFS Lodge needs a critical mass of active players that exceed the number of games offered each week, so that it can deal with the intermittent players that PFS structure allows for. It also needs multiple tables so that your lodge can retain old players and attract new ones. Furthermore, it needs a core group of people willing and able to GM. Not just one, but several, and preferably a rotating crew so that GMs can sometimes play.
Hmm
As the individual that witnessed/caused the critical mass you speak of many, many, many moons ago (read 5 years+), I'd argue what you're seeing is not what you think it is.
We hit two tables in roughly three months. Playing once a month. We then bumped things up to every other week and were running three tables on average by month six at just one store. By the time we added our second store, we exploded to six to eight tables a week by month 9. At my first VC dinner (about a year in) I was proud to announce that we had hit 200 registered players playing at four regional stores. That happened almost instantaneously, with about the only nudge being 1) playing at the two biggest game stores in the area, and 2) starting our hosting on Meetup where we started drawing in a dozen new potential players a month easily. That second element is HUGE, and draws in more players than I think anybody really knows (except those that have read through the Google Analytics page attached to the site). Add in CONvergence and CotN and I didn't even have to try to recruit, players just started showing up.
So...as much as I'd love to say, "we should tell everybody else how to grow our area because we know how to do it", you need to know - our area is about as much of an outlier as they get, and it's been that way since day one. Yes there were some things we did to make it happen, but basically, we just live in an area with the player base to make it happen organically. The things we did do cost money (paying for new GMs out of pocket to gift scenarios, the rather substantial Meetup pricetag) that a lot of people can't "just do".
I am extremely proud of our lodge and everything it's accomplished, but I will stand firmly beside smaller lodges that frustrated with how easy the larger lodges have it. I remember the first VC dinners where we all were in the same boat, and I can guarantee you, unless you're from one of the regions with 1-2 tables a month, you're not going to get it.
To anybody interested, I'll gladly how I started a lodge with myself, one other friend, and a desire to play the game, but I'm afraid that our region really is that much of an oddity.
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So...as much as I'd love to say, "we should tell everybody else how to grow our area because we know how to do it", you need to know - our area is about as much of an outlier as they get, and it's been that way since day one. Yes there were some things we did to make it happen, but basically, we just live in an area with the player base to make it happen organically.
I will attest to this wholeheartedly. As I mention from time to time, my wife played under Arneson and we've been friends with the original players under Arneson for some time. I played tabletop games (mostly railroad games) with the guy who played the first wizard/magic-user in D&D.
The Minnesota lodge has a lot of history to build off of and I don't think the success that Monsieur Slanky mentioned could be replicated elsewhere.
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The Minnesota lodge has a lot of history to build off of and I don't think the success that Monsieur Slanky mentioned could be replicated elsewhere."the biggest" gamestore pretty much guarantees you've got more than one, which means lots of geeks per square mile to attract
We have the "largest game store between the West Coast and Chicago" (aka our biggest). This same game store is associated with pretty significant game/comic distribution at major conventions. Their game space can easily (but doesn't typically) manage 6 tables of games if need be.
We have a game store attached to the home office of one of the largest North American game developing/publishing houses (Fantasy Flight Games aka Asmode North America). This store can accommodate an 18 table convention with room to expand. Most of us are friends with at least one employee.
We have at least four other stores that can, and do, seat anywhere between two and five tables at least bi-weekly. All of those stores are within a 30 minute drive of each other.
Start extending your reach a little further in terms of distance or to the stores we're not involved with regionally and I can name at least five more off the top of my head. That's not even counting "Games by James" that has a huge mall presence here (and sells plenty of product from all game companies).
So yes, as you can imagine we have an enormous "geek presence" here in town.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Now, Hilary, that's a bit of an exaggeration...
I totally agree with everything you said, Jack, but I'm not the one who said there wasn't a lot to do in Minnesota. That was Terry. As if I'd insult my own state!
___
Minnesota is also home to a large number of science fiction conventions, and was the first second major state (after New York) where Meetups of all kinds flourished. We like our clubs, and we like to organize. We have an absurd number of game stores. I recognize that we have it good, and that we have inherent advantages.
On the other hand, I do think that there are things to do to increase critical mass. Mr. Slanky, you're right about our presence on Meetup being a huge factor. Meetup does a great job of cross-pollination. New members find us because of Meetup all the time.
There's a lot of factors that contribute to acheiving critical mass. One is having a large base of players. Another is having good venues to play in. But you cannot underestimate the effects of having a well-organized and friendly local culture. Mr. Slanky, as curmudgeonly as you appear on these boards, you and the other old timers that I met welcomed me with open arms.
Whether your first meetings are successful is going to be hit or miss. You need good group chemistry. You need for your players to have a good time, and bring others. Even more importantly, you need a second GM so that you can start spawning more tables. All this is hard, and requires some factor of luck as well as circumstance and skill.
When I worked for Meetup, I wound up analyzing a lot of Meetup groups that took off, all around the country. Most were popular topics in high-density population areas, but what was most interesting to me were the ones that didn't fit this profile. The groups that succeeded against all odds because the people organizing them brought enthusiasm, vision or just plain consistently good events.
I think that BNW's small lodge is a great example of this sort of beating the odds. He's gotten a huge percentage of his small town to come out and game with him.
Hmm
I don't think we're dismissing the problems that small lodges face, but outside of convincing people to move, it's really up to them to deal with the problems. They may need to step up their efforts to promote themselves. Or consider other venues such as online gaming via Roll20.
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I don't think we're dismissing the problems that small lodges face, but outside of convincing people to move, it's really up to them to deal with the problems. They may need to step up their efforts to promote themselves. Or consider other venues such as online gaming via Roll20.
Please offer tips on how to further promote a small lodge. (Not even you specifically - this is a general call for advice open for any responses.) We'll consider any advice we can get.
I'll write a more in-depth post in this thread once I have the time. Sometime later today.
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What If you could register a "lodge" and that lodge should receive boon support quarterly if it manages to hold X amount of tables that quarter this bonus boon support should not be cumulative with the normal boon support given now?
this way even the smaller lodges get something at least :)
The gaming store I go to runs ~12 tables a month and I do not believe we receive any boon support.
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What If you could register a "lodge" and that lodge should receive boon support quarterly if it manages to hold X amount of tables that quarter this bonus boon support should not be cumulative with the normal boon support given now?
this way even the smaller lodges get something at least :)
The gaming store I go to runs ~12 tables a month and I do not believe we receive any boon support.
This certainly sounds like a good idea. Clearly there are details that need to be ironed out. The biggest potential problem that I can see is how to prevent abuse, especially if certain areas could use the aid of more populated stores to reach the minimum number of tables.
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What If you could register a "lodge" and that lodge should receive boon support quarterly if it manages to hold X amount of tables that quarter this bonus boon support should not be cumulative with the normal boon support given now?
this way even the smaller lodges get something at least :)
The gaming store I go to runs ~12 tables a month and I do not believe we receive any boon support.
This is already a thing. You but need to contact your RVC and see if you can get regional event support. See the Support tab on the landing page.
But that program is designed to help smaller areas get some level of support.
I don't think we're dismissing the problems that small lodges face, but outside of convincing people to move, it's really up to them to deal with the problems. They may need to step up their efforts to promote themselves. Or consider other venues such as online gaming via Roll20.Please offer tips on how to further promote a small lodge. (Not even you specifically - this is a general call for advice open for any responses.) We'll consider any advice we can get.
I'll write a more in-depth post in this thread once I have the time. Sometime later today.
Use Meetup, Open a Facebook Page, I know a private pathfinder group that uses the latter.
Post flyers in your local gaming stores with the above contact info.
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As for advertising to help a small region...
We all know the local game store often has a bulletin board to post fliers. But so to do supermarkets, grocery stores, student unions, community buildings, association party rooms, community libraries, etc. Look for places to post your fliers that will reach more people than just the small community that goes to the FLGS.
Also the story themselves can help. When people walk in and ask if there are any local groups, the store can tell them about your website and your game day. When I opened a new day on Tuesday nights at a store new to me, the owners did that and I got no less than 5 new regulars in a week based on that alone.
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Does anyone have suggestions on how to draw people to the hobby, especially in areas where rpgs are not really accepted? This does not apply to myself, but I feel that the current direction of the conversation assumes that there are players looking for a group. What if you pretty much have all of the local players? How do you bring more people into the fold? Does anyone know of any good resources for dealing with the stigma that some communities have created about the hobby?
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Does anyone have suggestions on how to draw people to the hobby, especially in areas where rpgs are not really accepted? This does not apply to myself, but I feel that the current direction of the conversation assumes that there are players looking for a group. What if you pretty much have all of the local players? How do you bring more people into the fold? Does anyone know of any good resources for dealing with the stigma that some communities have created about the hobby?
Just use your basic social skills. The more you don't act like the neckbeard stereotype, the better.
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Start up a charity offering. Have weekly food drives or pass the cup and donate to the charity once a month. Donate in the name of your Lodge, not a person.
If the community sees you being helpful on a community wide level, the acceptance may become more prevalent.
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As for advertising to help a small region...
We all know the local game store often has a bulletin board to post fliers. But so to do supermarkets, grocery stores, student unions, community buildings, association party rooms, community libraries, etc. Look for places to post your fliers that will reach more people than just the small community that goes to the FLGS.
Also the story themselves can help. When people walk in and ask if there are any local groups, the store can tell them about your website and your game day. When I opened a new day on Tuesday nights at a store new to me, the owners did that and I got no less than 5 new regulars in a week based on that alone.
This is a critical thing, and can be the difference between success and failure. The store owners and employees have to help if you are going to be successful.... They see a lot more customers than you do. I know this from experience.
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Whether your first meetings are successful is going to be hit or miss. You need good group chemistry. You need for your players to have a good time, and bring others.
Unfortunately, two years at a certain venue with chemistry befitting a failed science experiment may say otherwise about needing good group chemistry. We were able to survive in spite of it, and have spent a lot of time recovering from it.
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Care and caution should be used diplomatically with the new Community Conduct guidelines to indicate to prospective partner stores what concerns they may bring up to get them 'on board' with the policy.
Sure, that person who is toxic to the local community is a body 'filling the store', but if they are driving away *other* customers, that needs to be addressed both for the health of the community but also the retailer.
At least having an idea of what recourse is available to begin with might be helpful in the long run?
No one wants the awkward situation of asking someone to leave, and then having to have that someone remain because the proprietor insists.
Or, alternatively, someone that the proprietor does not care for but is very strong in the community but isn't allowed to play at a venue due to personality conflicts.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Getting the store to love you is really important as well. At Dreamers we get a steady stream of people that come from the store, because the owner recommends us to everyone who's looking for a game. "Everybody leaves your tables smiling. Week after week, you give everyone a good time. If I weren't working behind the counter, I'd join in."
It helps that we begin on time, end (mostly) on time, buy tons of stuff and clean up after ourselves. Once when we inconvenienced the store, we all chipped in to buy stuff for the staff. I'd had several new GMs that night and all of them forgot to print chronicle sheets. (Since then, that's always become part of my briefing to new GMs -- print your chronicles or ask me to do so several days in advance... ) At any rate, the store offered to print the chronicle sheets for us that night, and I wanted to thank them for going above and beyond.
Get to know the staff at your store. Say hi when you come in. Wish them goodbye when you leave. If they wind up being held up a few minutes late because a scenario ran overtime, make sure that a) you gave them a heads up that you were running late before hand and b) that you start your table packing everything else up that's not needed. Thank them. Try not to repeat going late again for a bit, and do other things to keep your tables moving and organized.
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Whether your first meetings are successful is going to be hit or miss. You need good group chemistry. You need for your players to have a good time, and bring others.Unfortunately, two years at a certain venue with chemistry befitting a failed science experiment may say otherwise about needing good group chemistry. We were able to survive in spite of it, and have spent a lot of time recovering from it.
The reason why we were able to survive is that we had so many other well-run venues. If our group had been depending on that one alone... we would have had trouble. I want to do a shout-out to Fractallaw for his diligent work in steering that venue in a new direction!
Starting the gaming culture that you want to have is tough. Changing one? Far more difficult, but doable.
Hmm