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I am NOT trying to reopen the discussion as to whether these rules should be changed. We know that the rules stay as they are for at least 6 months.
But the Blog certainly implied that the PTB are interested in feedback. So, I'm starting this thread to give actual feedback from experience, not theory crafting.
I played in The Serpent's Ire yesterday. Having heard that this could be fairly deadly and having seen how questionable my character build was I decided to assign credit to a brand new PC.
I was the only player out of 5 to do so. The other 4 were assigning it to real characters.
The one thing that I really noticed was that I found it very, very hard to care about the secondary prestige for the character. I wanted to complete the mission successfully and I enjoyed the little bit of role playing the character that the scenario allowed.
But I almost completely ignored the "mission letter" and its hints as to what I was supposed to do. I just couldn't bring myself to care when there was NOTHING on the line for me and it seemed like an in character diversion (my character was supposed to put the main mission first).
Knowing that there was NOTHING on the line made character engagement worse. So, for me at least, the attempt to make me care by putting character resources on the line had the exact opposite effect.
Edit: I should explicitly point out that I have experience with other scenarios where I have played pre-gens (eg, Serpent's Rise) and so am comparing actual play experiences before and after this ruling
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I think what he was trying to say is that he would have been more connected if from the beginning he felt the chronicle was attached to one of his real and active characters... Before the ruling, I would have assigned Maelstrom's Rift to Jasmine, my bard. She wants to get a faerie dragon, and she's from Tien. Playing a little dragon bard? Perfect.
I would have assigned it to her instantly. Post ruling, I really don't want to lose Jasmine in a game where everyone is playing unfamiliar characters. So I'm going to assign it to new character or a blob. I'm worried about this same disconnect.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was more likely to feel a connection to a real character pre-ruling, because I always STARTED the game with a real character in mind.
Maybe this will be moot and I'll have enough prestige to enter Maelstrom with Jasmine attached by SkalCon, and I'll choose to risk it. I'll report back here when I do.
Hmm
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I'unclear on the point you are making. You might have cared more if you assigned the credit to character 99 deady mcdead ?
Hilary explained it well, but in a nutshell
Prior to the ruling : Nothing to lose, something to gain. I was well engaged with the character.
After the ruling : Nothing to lose, nothing to gain. I found it much harder to get engaged with the character, especially in terms of caring about the Secondary Success Condition
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My issue with the change on the pregen ruling is that my baseline assumption with the credit goes from "this will go onto an existing character, or if it dies I reassign it" to "I must assume from moment one that this chronicle is a dead character." Thus, when I go to SkalCon next month, both Serpent's Ire and Maelstrom Rift will be going on fresh character numbers individually, likely as 500gp/1xp/2pp first level chronicles.
I'm looking forward to both scenarios, but I'm concerned that I'll feel the same way as Paul did for Serpent's Ire.
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Personally, I think people are over-reacting a bit to this.
Ok, so for the Maelstrom characters, they are level 6, they have a good deal of gear.
Ember - at least 14000gp of gear (without a custom item)
Jamilla - 17K of gear without ring of the prime material plane
Krakos - 15k or so gear
Each of them could sell back everything to cover at least the costs of Raise Dead and the two Restoration spells, assuming the player would be covering 1000gp (on the chronicle). So, the net cost to the base PC would be 1000gp of the gold earned on the chronicle.
Personally, I don't think that's so bad.
As for level 1 pregens, you have to assign to a level 1 character, so for those you might as well just create a new character, right?
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Personally, I think people are over-reacting a bit to this.
Ok, so for the Maelstrom characters, they are level 6, they have a good deal of gear.
** spoiler omitted **
Each of them could sell back everything to cover at least the costs of Raise Dead and the two Restoration spells, assuming the player would be covering 1000gp (on the chronicle). So, the net cost to the base PC would be 1000gp of the gold earned on the chronicle.
Personally, I don't think that's so bad.
As for level 1 pregens, you have to assign to a level 1 character, so for those you might as well just create a new character, right?
+1
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Personally, I don't think that's so bad.And my main purpose in starting this thread was to let actual experience be heard, as opposed to theorycrafting (on EITHER side of the debate).
Its very possible I'm in the minority. Its very possible you are.
I probably won't be as concise as Paul was in the opening post, but anecdotally:
Given the complexity of the scenario, it was a credit to the GM who ran it, and given the complexity of the characters it was a credit to us as players to make it 'work' somehow.
Neat scenario, but felt more like a 'reverse-module' than a scenario for the complexity. Some players had a harder time 'getting' their characters than others.
Pregen Rule: Assign either to Level One or character of choice below level of pregen. No apparent costs 'baked in' if things went 'bad'.
On a Sunday morning, so this influences mentality and capability after a long weekend.
Given the complexity of the scenario, it was a credit to the GM who ran it, and given the complexity of the characters it was a credit to us as players to make it 'work' somehow.
Neat scenario, but we had the fortunate backdrop of one of the earlier specials to help us sort of remember what happened and what we were doing.
Characters were a little more difficult to get a 'handle on', but we managed.
Pregen Rule: Assign either to Level One or character of choice below level of pregen. No apparent costs 'baked in' if things went 'bad'.
This, as noted above, influences mentality and capability after a long weekend.
Given the complexity of the scenario, it was a credit to the GM who ran it, and given the complexity of some of the characters and players not getting the 'ideal fit' for their play style along with mission briefings that felt downright punitive rather than helpful along with a poor sense of pacing led to the party cohesion disintegrating before play even started. Even before we were out of the first phase we were no longer playing the game 'together' but rather racing to try and get 'some' sort of credit for at least some of our secondary characters.
Pregen Rule: Assign either to Level One or character of choice below level of pregen. No apparent costs 'baked in' if things went 'bad'.
I had assigned this to a character I thought it would be a good fit for, but then losing both Prestige awards was a bit painful for said character at the time and thank goodness we managed a bare minimum of cash out of it.
I've heard other tables weren't nearly as lucky.
I was the 'odd man out' but I'd at least played a character of the same type/mechanics, so it wasn't too difficult to make the transition to playing the character.
DESPITE the alignment of the character, the mission briefing was good enough to get me to *want* to work with the rest of the team, and it also helped me formulate my roleplay.
The only break-down was during one scene where it went from Pathfinder to Trigfinder, but I'm given to understand this is a nearly universal concern and will probably be addressed.
Pregen Rule: Assign either to Level One or character of choice below level of pregen. Cost if things went 'bad' per new Guide: The player can use the pregenerated character’s
pay for these spellcasting services. In addition, the
player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild
character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this
end. The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute
a minimum amount of gp before spending the
pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending
on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character,
1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.
Fortunately, 'bad' things didn't happen and we managed to 'just' pull it all off
And we also had this in our favor, as well, if it had become necessary, though no one was talking about it at the time.
IMPLEMENTING CHANGES
Oftentimes, changes to the campaign, whether through
errata, additional resources, or campaign clarifications,
are made just before a convention or game day comes
about. Unfortunately, this occurs most often when
members of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild
aren’t able to easily access such information. When this
occurs, the member does not have to implement the
change until after that convention or game session. GMs
should mark any Chronicle sheet earned at that event
as ID, for “implementation delay.” Players then have the
ensuing time to update their characters to meet current
campaign guidelines.
However, sitting down and trying to figure out which character was *in range*, could *benefit* from the chronicle, had enough cash on hand to handle the 'fee' if death were in the offing made it a little frustrating and I wish I could re-assign the credit to a different character, but what's done is done.
If I hadn't had a character with enough 'cash' pre-ruling, I probably wouldn't've shown up for the event, and put it off until I did. Now I just have to hope that playing a given pregen scenario will earn at least the gold to pay down death.
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+1Personally, I think people are over-reacting a bit to this.
Ok, so for the Maelstrom characters, they are level 6, they have a good deal of gear.
** spoiler omitted **
Each of them could sell back everything to cover at least the costs of Raise Dead and the two Restoration spells, assuming the player would be covering 1000gp (on the chronicle). So, the net cost to the base PC would be 1000gp of the gold earned on the chronicle.
Personally, I don't think that's so bad.
As for level 1 pregens, you have to assign to a level 1 character, so for those you might as well just create a new character, right?
Are there specific rules called out for the 6th-level pregens in Maelstrom? The guide as it stands only directly calls out 1st, 4th, and 7th-level pregens, making it unclear how pregens of other levels might be affected. I don't know that I would assume 1,000 gp per condition absent some clarification.
That said, I would think that the biggest disparity would be with high-level pregen credit and low-level characters. If you assign 7th-level pregen credit to a 1st-level character, you won't be able to contribute enough to keep the character around if the pregen kicks the bucket. This is a problem if you've got a boon character who'd like the credit. That's just some counter-theorycrafting, though. I won't have a real play experience to report until later in September, I think--well, not one affected by the new rules. If this thread is still alive and kicking then, I'll report back.
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Are there specific rules called out for the 6th-level pregens in Maelstrom? The guide as it stands only directly calls out 1st, 4th, and 7th-level pregens, making it unclear how pregens of other levels might be affected. I don't know that I would assume 1,000 gp per condition absent some clarification.
I would absolutely rule that they used the limit for the nearest level to the pregens level. I would also accept a GM using the limit for the lower level between the two. I do not see a lack of clarification as a reason to not make a judgement call. It is certainly something to be brought to the attention of the campaign staff for revision in the future. A level range rather than specific levels will clear that up entirely.
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Are there specific rules called out for the 6th-level pregens in Maelstrom? The guide as it stands only directly calls out 1st, 4th, and 7th-level pregens, making it unclear how pregens of other levels might be affected. I don't know that I would assume 1,000 gp per condition absent some clarification.+1Personally, I think people are over-reacting a bit to this.
Ok, so for the Maelstrom characters, they are level 6, they have a good deal of gear.
** spoiler omitted **
Each of them could sell back everything to cover at least the costs of Raise Dead and the two Restoration spells, assuming the player would be covering 1000gp (on the chronicle). So, the net cost to the base PC would be 1000gp of the gold earned on the chronicle.
Personally, I don't think that's so bad.
As for level 1 pregens, you have to assign to a level 1 character, so for those you might as well just create a new character, right?
I don't remeber where I saw it, but the rule I'm going with until I hear otherwise is to go with the next lowest tier. So the level sixes in 7-99 would follow the rules for level four pregens, and the level eights in 7-98 would count as level seven pregens.
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The chronicle sheets for Maelstrom Rift and Serpent's Ire had level ranges listed, so I would start with those or reducing to level 1.
As far as actual play experience, I don't understand the trepidation around character death. It's part of the game, and is nothing more than a resource tax - you screwed up or got unlucky (greataxe crits in lvl 1 scenario grumble grumle), go pay 7k gold. In the event of a pregen, it's go pay 1k gold after selling off their gear. I put both chronicles on real characters, fully expecting to pay or retire if needed.
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The chronicle sheets for Maelstrom Rift and Serpent's Ire had level ranges listed, so I would start with those or reducing to level 1.
As far as actual play experience, I don't understand the trepidation around character death. It's part of the game, and is nothing more than a resource tax - you screwed up or got unlucky (greataxe crits in lvl 1 scenario grumble grumle), go pay 7k gold. In the event of a pregen, it's go pay 1k gold after selling off their gear. I put both chronicles on real characters, fully expecting to pay or retire if needed.
I can assume there is more of a feeling of I have less control over events playing a pregen than a character I know. I would feel more comfortable failing using my own character that I have leveled since the outset and know fairly well than one I just picked and don't know how every piece of the watch works.
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(snipped for brevity)
That said, I would think that the biggest disparity would be with high-level pregen credit and low-level characters. If you assign 7th-level pregen credit to a 1st-level character, you won't be able to contribute enough to keep the character around if the pregen kicks the bucket. This is a problem if you've got a boon character who'd like the credit. That's just some counter-theorycrafting, though. I won't have a real play experience to report until later in September, I think--well, not one affected by the new rules. If this thread is still alive and kicking then, I'll report back.
I believe it would be at the time you hit that chronicle in your chronology that you would need to pay in - I know in the past when keeping a pregen despite 'bad things' happening, you didn't actually process the cost of the 'bad thing' until the chronicle is applied. So a 1st level character getting a 7th level pregen chronicle with a death wouldn't pay the chosen equity payment until that chronicle applied. You would decide at the time the GM is giving you the chronicle, and it would be noted on it, but the fee wouldn't come due until you get the rest of it too.
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I believe it would be at the time you hit that chronicle in your chronology that you would need to pay in - I know in the past when keeping a pregen despite 'bad things' happening, you didn't actually process the cost of the 'bad thing' until the chronicle is applied. So a 1st level character getting a 7th level pregen chronicle with a death wouldn't pay the chosen equity payment until that chronicle applied. You would decide at the time the GM is giving you the chronicle, and it would be noted on it, but the fee wouldn't come due until you get the rest of it too.
That's an interesting point, I suspect you're right and my previous interpretation is not.
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Are there specific rules called out for the 6th-level pregens in Maelstrom? The guide as it stands only directly calls out 1st, 4th, and 7th-level pregens, making it unclear how pregens of other levels might be affected. I don't know that I would assume 1,000 gp per condition absent some clarification.I would absolutely rule that they used the limit for the nearest level to the pregens level. I would also accept a GM using the limit for the lower level between the two. I do not see a lack of clarification as a reason to not make a judgement call. It is certainly something to be brought to the attention of the campaign staff for revision in the future. A level range rather than specific levels will clear that up entirely.
I think I agree on all points and I think you (each individual GM, not TOZ in particular) need to make a judgment call if this comes up--given both the intent of the rules and the specific rules text there are no good reasons not to. There's obviously some sort of co-pay associated with your pregen, there are just different ideas about what the co-pay might be.
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The chronicle sheets for Maelstrom Rift and Serpent's Ire had level ranges listed, so I would start with those or reducing to level 1.
As far as actual play experience, I don't understand the trepidation around character death. It's part of the game, and is nothing more than a resource tax - you screwed up or got unlucky (greataxe crits in lvl 1 scenario grumble grumle), go pay 7k gold. In the event of a pregen, it's go pay 1k gold after selling off their gear. I put both chronicles on real characters, fully expecting to pay or retire if needed.
Because if my character is going to die I want it to be my fault, not because i received a gimped character to play
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I played both Serpent's Ire and Maelstrom Rift at a Con this past weekend and, assigned the credit from each to pre-existing characters. At both tables we succeeded at the primary objectives. I believe everyone got the second prestige on Serpents, and all but one got the second point in Maelstrom. The characters did have a lot going on, and I definitely had to consult the GM on Serpents at least once to make sure I understood how to use one of my abilities, but the game was a lot of fun. I actually REALLY enjoyed my secret mission in Serpents. My background in Maelstrom wasn't quite as exciting, but included some cool Pathfinder lore I didn't previously know. My one criticism would be that I felt the conditions of my second PP were somewhat vague. I was never worried about the new rule regarding character death, but I did find myself wondering if I was actually meeting my characters goals. I can't speak for the other players, but I had a great time in both scenarios. The new ruling didn't affect my experience at all.
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I know in the past when keeping a pregen despite 'bad things' happening, you didn't actually process the cost of the 'bad thing' until the chronicle is applied. So a 1st level character getting a 7th level pregen chronicle with a death wouldn't pay the chosen equity payment until that chronicle applied. You would decide at the time the GM is giving you the chronicle, and it would be noted on it, but the fee wouldn't come due until you get the rest of it too.
To my understanding, that has never been the case in PFS. You have to pay to clear the conditions on the pregen at the end of the session, or the character it was attached to was marked dead. This is why the rule of being able to reassign to a different character number came about.
I'd be a lot happier to assign pregens to real character numbers if this deferred payment thing was true.
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The rules as written do not cover pregens that are not level 1/4/7, therefore they cannot be applied to the pregen-only specials. (Unless you apply them, but then have no way to deal with the death of the pregen... which seems a tough sell.)
Given this, our local team decided that the previous rule from Guide 7 had to be used. It's the only "RAW" that actually works for these specials, and that made more sense than making up the rules for pregens to fit them into the intent of the new rule.
I hope the revised Guide will address this issue directly, so we can apply the new rule to pregen-only scenarios for six months and see how it goes.
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Assign character numbers at the conclusion of the scenario. Everyone can play with gusto and full engagement, no one is worried about the death of an actual PC due to Paizo making potentially crappy pregens and being stuck at a table with people unfamiliar with potentially crappy pregens. Fun sponging is contrary to the Don't Be A Jerk Rule, even if it is Paizo who writes the fun sponge rule.
Problem solved. Problem staying solved.
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Contributor
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Fun sponging is contrary to the Don't Be A Jerk Rule, even if it is Paizo who writes the fun sponge rule.
Problem solved. Problem staying solved.
Perhaps presciently, the "don't be a jerk" rule is no longer part of the Guide. ^_^
Instead, we have a list of Community Standards, including topics such as "Keep Good Records" and "Do Not Cheat".
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Assign character numbers at the conclusion of the scenario.
Unfortunately, that is contrary to the current rule. Per p. 6 of the Season 8 Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, "You must choose to which of your characters the credit will be applied at the beginning of the adventure." This new rule is the reason for this thread and others that discuss the impact of the change.
Personally, I don't play pregens unless the scenario requires it. With this rule in place, I will be choosing the character assignment based primarily on whether I think the character can pay to resolve a possible bad outcome rather than whether I think that the scenario may relate in some way to his backstory or motivations. I think that this is sub-optimal. I understand the campaign leadership's desire to make playing a pregen have an associated risk, but if the intent is to make people less reckless when playing pregens, I doubt that this will have the desired result. Anyone who would be inclined to be reckless will just choose a new character number before starting play and won't care as much about the outcome. If they could possibly assign the chronicle to a character who could receive significant benefit, there is more incentive to play carefully.
As has been pointed out by others in other threads, this rule is designed to fix a player problem with an in-character effect and that's not the best way to attack player problems.
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I haven't seen any pregen problems/abuse in my games with post-game assignment, and I agree with others above regarding DBAJ on both sides. I value the freedom that post-assignment pregens offer with a focus on fun and overall experience and think it brings players to the table. If someone is willing to play a pregen to sync a table or make it legal, great! Let them assign it as they see fit without penalty or pressure.
I would hate to see players start using pregen/4's in a 1-5 @ st1-2 or pregen/7's in 3-7's @ st3-4 as backlash for the change to prevent dying (in addition to creating new IDs at the start). However, there might be a reason to go high with a pregen, depending on where the credit needs to be assigned (but ideally, hopefully not).
Maybe this new pre-game assignment rule will revert to the old way when Paizo updates the Season 8 Guide.
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Pedantically speaking the rules tend to refer to iconic pregens. Trying to figure out any rules for other pregens becomes murky if you insist on that distinction.
That's not the part that matters. The part that matters is that you only have rules to resolve death of level 1, 4, and 7 pregens. Thus, the rules can't be applied to pregens of another level without guessing what the intent was.
Unless you suggest playing a pregen and then not being able to resolve death at all is the best option?
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Andreww, I concur, but it seems like a mechanic that could add tension to the start of the game for those with pregen concerns (or needs) vs. just being inclusive without raising the spectre of death before it happens.
Ideally, the same general rule or encouragement should also pertain to PC selection vs. sub-tier whenever possible (where the APL helps to a degree). But, I frequently see sub-tier busting when the APL allows it that tends to limit the challenge for the rest of the (in sub-tier) players. Not really a new problem. Ex: L5 @ st1-2.
Anyway, tables should be about the fun, adventure and social bonding to keep players coming back, and the previous assignment method was fine in that regard. The new method creates additional corner cases as Lamplighter aptly points out and doesn't really provide much benefit. Hopefully, death does not occur very often, but it's part of the game...as are those that seek to bend the rules.
If every pregen were built optimally, every scenario or AP were perfectly balanced and every GM adjudicated flawlessly, assignment would be a non-issue and odds of death would be at nadir. However, we all know there is variation that can impact the table experience. So, open/post-assignment embraces these imperfections, supports the GM learning process, maintains trust among strangers for those willing to be flexible or hop into a pickup game with a pregen, and helps keep the game fun.
Do we really need pre-assignment? It doesn't seem to fix anything and maybe makes some things worse.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP
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Another experience (or really lack thereof) to add to the mix:
I have played a few PFS games by Play-by-post here on Paizo's forums, using a pregen some of the time. I was considering trying to find a local PFS group to play with. However, I was shocked when this particular new policy was announced. I finished up the game I was already in, but at this point I have no interest in more PFS games. It's not so much this particular rule as the attitude that rule shows. It's punishing everyone to try to catch a few abusers of rules.
It's also likely that I'm not the only one to have this kind of reaction. If campaign leadership is collecting information as to what effect this rule is having, yes, it has driven at least one player (and likely GM, because I often GM home games) away from PFS, and probably many more who will not say anything but just never try PFS.
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It is a silly rule.
Surely the biggest reason that pre-gens exist is to allow new players to enter the game quickly. Certainly, my introduction to PFS was via pre-gens, at a convention. My first three PFS games were all with pre-gens. I've also happily joined a game with a pre-gen when I haven't had an in-tier character of my own on hand. This new rule inhibits our ability to just pick up and play, because of (at least) two reasons.
1. a new player is probably only going to have one PFS registration. She might not even have her own character yet when she's playing a pre-gen. Death with a pre-gen thereby wipes out her first few games worth of xp. All sense of accomplishment gone. Why persevere with PFS in such circumstances?
2. for more experienced players, they are faced with the choice between pre-assigning pre-gen xp to a new character number each time, or potentially being uncomfortable with unfamiliar builds and abilities and risking the death of their own PC.
For myself, I've used a pre-gen twice since the rule change. I accepted the risk. I will probably continue to accept the risk, because this is a game.
However, if we really want to attract new players to the hobby and to the campaign, it should be as easy and as stress-free as possible to join a game. The new rule is not conducive to this aim.
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I recently played Honor's Edge, the barbarians would have killed me if the gm hasn't been being nice. Long story short, I will never again risk chronicles on a pregen scenario.
Also, the gm said he would've let me reassign the chronicle number if he had killed me. I don't know if I would have taken him up on that, but if people are willing to ignore rules for a better experience, then those rules should be revisited.
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At SkalCon currently, played 2 scenarios today with pregens. One went straight to a "presumed dead" and the other I was willing to risk on a character who had a level before it would be applied. I didn't feel particularly detached, but I did worry strongly about the one I risked.
In retrospect, was that worrying a good thing or a bad thing? Did it enhance your play experience to have that increased stake in the fate of your character?