Getting an aquatic animal companion to be moderately useful on land -PFS

[Timebomb]

I know it isn't a good idea at all, but I want myself a land-shark and I think I've almost done it, but some of these corner cases have a lot of dust in them and I'd love some more eyes and opinions. Specifically there are two strange things:

1) What is the Base Speed of a shark when it's not in the water?

2) Assuming the Base Speed of a shark when it's on land refers to the Base Land Speed, what is the Base Land Speed of a creature that does not have a listed Land Speed? (possibilities I can think of are either 0 or Null)

2b) Can I give the shark a +5 foot enhancement bonus to it's Base Land Speed and if so what would the resulting Land Speed be?

I use Totem Companion (stag) to give my shark a +5' enhancement bonus to it's Base Land Speed, resulting in a 5' land speed (and 60' swim speed), and 1/day through Primal Companion's Primal Transformation I give it the Climb evolution twice: once to give it a climb speed of 5' (it's Base Speed) and the second to boost it to a 25' climb speed. I use the definition of a slope in the climb rules to climb across the ground.

Totem Companion:

Your animal companion becomes spiritually connected to an animal totem that has a spiritual significance for you or your background, such as a Shoanti clan’s animal totem.

Prerequisites: Wis 13, animal companion class feature.

Benefit: Select one animal aspect from the list presented in the hunter class’s animal focus class feature. Your animal companion has natural coloration suggestive of this aspect—a bear might have a dark spot in the shape of a bat, or a hawk might have unusual tiger striping in its feathers. Your animal companion gains the benefits of the selected animal aspect, treating its Hit Dice as its effective hunter level for this ability. This bonus doesn’t stack if the animal companion is already under the benefit of the same animal aspect because of the actual class feature.

For example, an animal companion with Totem Beast (snake) under the effect of the snake aspect from its hunter owner would get a +2 bonus on attack rolls when making attacks of opportunity, not a +4 bonus.

Shark Animal Companion:

Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed swim 60 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.

4th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2; Special Qualities blindsense.

Primal Transformation:

At first level, a primal companion hunter can awaken a primal creature from within his animal companion as a swift action. The animal companion gains a pool of 2 evolution points that can be used to temporarily give the companion evolutions as if it were an eidolon. A primal companion hunter uses her hunter level to determine her effective summoner level for the purpose of qualifying for evolutions and determining their effects. At 8th level, the number of evolution points in her pool increases to 4, and at 15th level, it increases to 6.

Activating these evolutions on the animal companion is a swift action. A primal companion hunter can use this ability for 1 minute per day per hunter level. This duration need not to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. An animal companion transformed in this way cannot exceed the maximum number of attacks available to the eidolon of a summoner whose class level equals that of the hunter. While transformed in this way, the animal companion's type changes to magical beast, though the primal companion hunter still treats it as an animal for the purpose of the Handle Animal skill.

If a primal companion hunter's animal companion is dead, she can apply these evolutions to herself instead of to her animal companion. Uses of this ability count toward the hunter's maximum daily duration of evolution use.

This ability replaces animal focus.

Climb Evolution:

An eidolon becomes a skilled climber, gaining a climb speed equal to its base speed. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each additional time it is selected, increase the eidolon’s climb speed by 20 feet.

Excerpt from Climb skill:

With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more. A Climb check that fails by 4 or less means that you make no progress, and one that fails by 5 or more means that you fall from whatever height you have already attained. The DC of the check depends on the conditions of the climb. Compare the task with those on the following table to determine an appropriate DC.

I personally think that an animal always has a land speed, just that if nothing is listed it is 0, so you can give it an enhancement bonus to said land speed of 0 and 0 + n = n.
Alternatively I can see the idea that if a speed isn't listed it's value is Null, and unless something explicitly grants that movement type it is impossible to enhance, Null + n = Null. But this to me means that the base speed of a shark would therefore have to be it's only listed speed: swim, and thus the evolutions would give it a climb speed of 80', which is really good.

Other minor questions I have:
i) Does a shark's scent ability work in the air?
ii) An Aquarium Ball establishes it takes 2 gallons of water to comfortably hold a Tiny aquatic creature and keep it breathing for a day, how much water does a Small aquatic creature require? 4 gallons (double)? 16 gallons (octuple)? What about a Medium aquatic creature?
iii) If I keep the Small sized shark in a barrel I'm holding and have the weight capacity for, does it share my space?

While it may be far easier and more effective to make another character, at level 4 I'll have a ground-scuttling Laser-shark (burning gaze), and that's awesome.

Thanks all.

[Just a Mort]

Primal companion hunter is not PFS legal, so don't bother.

[Timebomb]

Additional resources: Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Hex channeler, mutation warrior, and primal companion hunter are now legal for play.

They updated it.

[Saethori]

Giving something a +5 bonus to its land speed doesn't work if it has no land speed, similarly to how gaining a bonus to fly speed does not automatically permit you to fly.

Secondly, sharks are not amphibious, and will in fact suffocate on dry land. This is not desirable.

I would suggest storing the shark in something such as Hostelling Armor until you reach water again. In emergencies, you may have to say goodbye to your shark friend and enlist the aid of a land creature for moments you're on land for extended periods of time.

[Timebomb]

Hosteling Armor and a Necklace of Adaptation are on the top of my list. I have the Create Water Orison to create new water for my shark in the meantime, magic items are expensive.

So Saethori, if you're in the Null + n = Null camp: what do you think the Base Speed of a shark is, since it has no land speed or any listed speed besides a swim speed?

[DocShock]

Is fins to feet legal in PFS?

[BigNorseWolf]

DocShock wrote:

Is fins to feet legal in PFS?

Only if you're a merfolk.

So nope.

if you got access to it somehow there's still a snafu

his spell only works on merfolk, tritons, seals, fish, and other creatures whose bodies or limbs are used mainly for swimming and are not suitable for walking. It does not give the target the ability to breathe air.

[BigNorseWolf]

Air breathing is apparently pfs legal.

[Timebomb]

It's a 3rd level spell though, near 7th level when I could cast it I would probably just get a Necklace of Adaptation so it can breath anywhere anytime without needing to spend spells.

Until then I'm going by the suffocation rules, limiting it to ~7 rounds out of the water, but usually that's long enough.

[Ten'shun the Tengu]

Your animal companion is gonna hate your guts if you subject it to suffocation each time you take it out of its dimensional hole/pokeball.

Don't Awaken it, it will try to kill you.

[Murdock Mudeater]

1) pretty sure the scent ability only applies when underwater, provided the creature has the aquatic subtype. Not sure where this is found, but I recall reading it. Likewise, scent for land creatures doesn't apply while underwater.

2) a medium aquatic creature is going require at least a 5' cube of water, though that represents rather crammed aquarium. I'd suggest a 10' cube. Yeah, totally unrealistic for for adventuring. I'd also point out that any respectible hunter or druid isn't going to be forcing their companion animal to live in a cage/aquarium.

3) Maybe. Up to the GM. Still, If I were the shark companion, I'd ditch the hunter/druid/ranger that insists on keeping me in a barrel for our "joint" adventure. Keeping a living creature in a barrel is fine if you intend to eat it, sell it, or use it as a living spell component. As a companion animal, that's just cruel.

[Ridiculon]

You could have a bathtub permanently animated to follow you around carrying the shark, but i don't know how useful that would be as an animal companion (it starts out small sized right?). However, it would be very useful for intimidate checks to have a mutated shark leap out of the tub and start climbing around, I know i'd be terrified.

[Imbicatus]

Sky Swim covers combat movement.

[Timebomb]

Well, Seawaters and Neptune have been having a grand old time adventuring; up mountains, through rivers, and across fields. Much to his dismay, when he gets back to Absalom he's berated by his fellow pathfinders for "cruel and unusual treatment of animals". But with the gained experience he prays to Gorzreh and is answered! To the tune of a level in Unsworn Shaman.

The Water Lung Hex fixes the whole "the shark is suffocating anytime it's out of the barrel, you monster" problem, and a Compsognathus familiar should have enough strength to schlep my shark around. I'm even getting him a cage to sleep that could fit 5. My shark will be living in the lap of luxury.

But the whole "what does the term 'Base Speed' refer to, and can I add to my base land speed if it isn't listed?" problem still exists, especially since even the Limbs: Legs evolution refers to Base speed: "Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet". So I have no firm answer to what it's speed would be or if it would do anything at all, RAW. Sky Swim and other 3rd level spells won't be available for another 6 levels, I'd prefer something that comes online sooner.

Also, for the Water Lung Hex: it doesn't list a range, so what is its range? Touch? Unlimited? 30 ft?

Water Lung:

An air-breathing target can breathe water or an aquatic target can breathe air. This lasts 1 minute. If the witch uses this hex on herself, she can maintain it while she sleeps, allowing her to safely sleep underwater.

Limbs evolution:

Limbs (Ex): The eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.

[GM Bold Strider]

You can't have a familiar and animal companion in PFS, I believe.

[Timebomb]

I can have 1 "combat animal" and any number of "non-combat" so at the beginning of combat my familiar safely poofs into his pouch.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Timebomb wrote:

I can have 1 "combat animal" and any number of "non-combat" so at the beginning of combat my familiar safely poofs into his pouch.

Hmmm....seems iffy. Are you applying the bonuses for having a familiar while in combat?

Also, how is the familiar "safe" in your pouch? Shouldn't it still be considered inside your square whenever that square is subject to an area effect? And if the familiar is trapped in the pouch, then can he make reflex saves?

I think out of combat means that they aren't present in the combat. If he's in your pocket, he's in the combat, right?

[Timebomb]

From the familiar feature:
"A familiar grants special abilities to its master, as given on the table below. These special abilities apply only when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other."

So I think I would get the +4 initiative bonus (wherever my familiar is, I assume it's within a mile), but not alertness or anything active. My flavor is it leaping into its pouch (where it would have total cover from everything, and be treated as a worn object) and, in any case, mechanically it would be immune to damage and effects, but unable to take any actions or have any influence for being out of combat. Hence why I really want to settle all the Base Speed questions so my shark can be independent.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Timebomb wrote:

From the familiar feature:

"A familiar grants special abilities to its master, as given on the table below. These special abilities apply only when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other."

So I think I would get the +4 initiative bonus (wherever my familiar is, I assume it's within a mile), but not alertness or anything active. My flavor is it leaping into its pouch (where it would have total cover from everything, and be treated as a worn object) and, in any case, mechanically it would be immune to damage and effects, but unable to take any actions or have any influence for being out of combat. Hence why I really want to settle all the Base Speed questions so my shark can be independent.

Local GMs, and myself, sometimes include pocketed familiars in area attacks. Regarding non-combat pets, the rule is not intended to allow you to make creatures immune to combat just because you've decided it's a non-combat animal. Mechanically, there are no rules to treat creatures as objects held on your person. Channelled negative energy, for example, would definitely hit a pocketed familiar.

[KingOfAnything]

Total Cover will prevent line-of-effect to the familiar, though.

[Timebomb]

If a creature hops inside a sealed box, how would channel energy effect it? Channel is specifically a 30' burst, which doesn't effect things which have total cover, it doesn't go through walls.
I think that if they're non-combat it does mean that they're immune to combat, if they could be effected by the enemies why couldn't that be able to work the other way? But that would be involving them in combat. I like to think that PFS is at least fair, and enemies being able to attack you without being able to attack back seems foul.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Timebomb wrote:

If a creature hops inside a sealed box, how would channel energy effect it? Channel is specifically a 30' burst, which doesn't effect things which have total cover, it doesn't go through walls.

I think that if they're non-combat it does mean that they're immune to combat, if they could be effected by the enemies why couldn't that be able to work the other way? But that would be involving them in combat. I like to think that PFS is at least fair, and enemies being able to attack you without being able to attack back seems foul.

Hmmm...don't know if clothing qualifies as cover, but I'll think on that one. Doesn't seem like hiding under the covers should make characters immune to channeled energy.

Regarding non-combat, it's one thing to have a creature, like a rented mule that flees at the sight of combat. It's something else to have a familiar that is providing bonuses and physically within the combat area. I'd allow the bonuses as a non-combatant if the familiar was not in the combat area, but seems fishy otherwise.

[Timebomb]

I agree that clothing probably would not provide enough/ enough consistent cover, but with a Familiar Satchel that is listed as "This armored case provides total cover to any Tiny or smaller creature contained within it." Nothing should be reaching them. An enemy could technically sunder it or something, but that seems mean.

Murdock, what's your opinion on using Climb to move across flat ground, and adding an enchantment bonus to a land speed which isn't listed?

[Mighty Squash]

GM Bold Strider wrote:

You can't have a familiar and animal companion in PFS, I believe.

By the PFS FAQ on it

FAQ wrote:

If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.

Which may be interpreted to mean you can have a familiar and animal companion on the field at once, but definitely not an animal companion and an eidolon, while riding yet another pet.

Like several other FAQs, it does not entirely prevent table variation.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Timebomb wrote:

Murdock, what's your opinion on using Climb to move across flat ground, and adding an enchantment bonus to a land speed which isn't listed?

Getting back on track, eh?

Not really sure what the intention is with adding to speeds that a creature doesn't have. I suppose I'd default to an assumed speed of 0ft in all areas that a creature lacks a listed speed, then add to that. Definitely a grey one, though.

As for climbing, it does seem weird that you'd have a climb speed, but not a land speed. I don't think you can use climb to go across open terrain, but at the same time, I can't picture an instance where a climber would be unable to traverse flat terrain. I suppose I'd do a strength check (Str+d20), with success to let you move half your climb speed on flat terrain. Check DC would be the total feet moved (rounded to nearest 5' section).