| SheepishEidolon |
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Mystic theurge is often criticized for losing CL in comparison to a conventional caster. But sometimes you find solutions at strange places. I read through Horror Adventures and the following alternate racial trait for half-elves caught my attention:
Multidisciplined: Born to two races, half-elves have a knack for combining different magical traditions. If a half-elf with this racial trait has spellcasting abilities from at least two different classes, the effects of spells she casts from all her classes are calculated as though her caster level were 1 level higher, to a maximum of her character level. This racial trait replaces multitalented.
Assuming two classes with 2nd level casting at level 3 (wizard, cleric, witch, druid etc.), you can focus on one of them (meaning 7 levels for it) and max out mystic theurge (10 levels). Throw in Multidisciplined and the good old Magical Knack and you make it to CL 20:
7 focussed caster class
10 mystic theurge
1 Multidisciplined
2 Magical Knack
==
20
The other class makes it to 7th level spells (class level 3+10) and CL 14 (you can use Bifurcated Magic race trait for +1 CL). You lose a lot of class features and lag behind one spell level for quite a while, but it might be worth it for you.
| Tacticslion |
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I'm re-reading it: doesn't multi disciplined apply to both Spellcasting classes?
Would t that mean that, with both multi disciplined and bifurcated magic, you end up at 20/15?
Let me know if I'm wrong - I don't actually know bifurcated magic, so I could be getting that incorrect (I'm just going off what you're saying).
You have:
MAIN
3 start
10 mystic theurge
2 magical knack
1 multidisciplined
4 continued
----------------
20 levels
SECONDARY
3 start
10 mystic theurge
1 multidisciplined
1 bifurcated magic
---------------------
15 levels
If that works, it means that, on prepared spells, you'd have access to eighth level prepared spells on your "secondary" caster ability, if I'm reading that, correctly!
Does that look right to you?
| SheepishEidolon |
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Hmm, you are right, Multidisciplined also applies, resulting in a good CL 15. But I don't think these CL increases offer additional spell slots or known spells, so the minor class will still be stuck with 'just' level 7 spells.
Archives of Nethys has a handy list for race traits, including Bifurcated Magic.
| Tacticslion |
Bifurcated Magic (alphabetized with all the other alternate race traits)
H'okay, so, working to understand these two better...
These merely add to the caster level: but they don't actually increase the effective class levels - when you said that before, I was mostly ignoreing that, as I thought you were merely talking about class features, but I see now you also mean spells per day and level as well...
Hm... that's actually still pretty painful. Most of your career you'll still be very reliant upon RoW (or equivalent) and PoP (or equivalent) in substantial excess compared to even normal casters. While the actual power of the spell levels you weild will not be lacking, which is awesome, your DCs, per-days, and access generally will until late game.
One supposes it might be possible to go straight seven initial levels first, before. Unto passing and topping off the final levels with mystic theurge, but... hm.
I'm tempted to suggest that in this case a False Preist archetype sorcerer makes a 100% better in all ways "mystic theurge" than a mystic theurge: single attribute; can be arcane/divine OR psychic/divine (depending on bloodline choice); has effectively limitless spells known/prepared for divine (via scrolls; scrolls that I think can come from any divine class, which, if so, though limited to eighth level, can get pretty powerful effects) and can spontaneously alter a single spell known/prepared for arcane (via expanded arcana tricks*); because of the way it's structured, at ninth level, it can use its divine spells at no material cost (outside of the initial purchase of the scroll**).
The main thing this build has going for it over the FP is that it has more class flexibility; and hypothetical lack of reliance on pages of spell knowledge (or doesn't instead need "that one spell").
In exchange, the FP Sorc relies less on pearls of power/rings of wizardry/etc., has access to nearly every eighth level and lower divine spell from any list for free (after a one-time fee), doesn't require all your traits; and is automatically SAD.
Both generally presume half-elf (though FP Sorc can do without it by spending more money - probably relying on Leadership crafting for money in a campaign that supports such).
* Presumes half-elf, but so does the above.
** Or whatever. I'd favor invisible tattoos, myself.
| Drahliana Moonrunner |
I'm tempted to suggest that in this case a False Preist archetype sorcerer makes a 100% better in all ways "mystic theurge" than a mystic theurge: single attribute; can be arcane/divine OR psychic/divine (depending on bloodline choice); has effectively limitless spells known/prepared for divine (via scrolls; scrolls that I think can come from any divine class, which, if so, though limited to eighth level, can get pretty powerful effects) and can spontaneously alter a single spell known/prepared for arcane (via expanded arcana tricks*); because of the way it's structured, at ninth level, it can use its divine spells at no material cost (outside of the initial purchase of the scroll**).
To be fair, the reason a False Priest is so good, is because it's supposed to be a False Priest of Razmir, and is intended to be an evil NPC. Stripping the archetype out of that context, makes it quite frankly, too good.
| Son of the Veterinarian |
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Hasn't the big problem with MT been less about the caster level and more that you have to be able to cast 2nd level spells in two classes before entry? Just increasing your caster level isn't going to allow you to take MT before hitting lv. 3 in both classes.
But then it's been a few years since I've looked at the Mystic Theurge, has something changed?
| Nord |
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But then it's been a few years since I've looked at the Mystic Theurge, has something changed?
A few things. MT is still bad - very bad but it's slowly getting there. MT need a way to enter mystic theurge earlier and/or a way to continue +1 wizard/+1 cleric spellprogression after level 10.
Here's a few things to keep in mind for Mystic Theurge.
Traits:
magical knack (+2 CL to one class up to level).
Bifurcated Magic (+1 CL to two classes up to level, does not stack with magical knack).
Race:
Half-elf Multidisciplined (+1 CL to two classes up to level).
Fame:
Eclectic Training (+1 CL to one class up to level).
Esoteric Training (another +2 CL to first class and +1 CL to second class up to level).
Items:
orange prism ioun stone (+1 CL - no cap)
Suggested Classes:
Divine: Cleric, Oracle
Arcane: Wizard for optimal spellprogression
Best Synergy: Empyreal bloodline - Sorcerer uses wisdom instead of charisma.
Third party class: Theurge
Spellprogression with one class that has -1 spell level (sorcerer, arcanist etc. Cleric or wizard as "main" is interchangable).
Level Class Spellprogression
1 cleric 1 wiz - cleric 1
2 cleric 2 wiz - cleric 1
3 cleric 3 wiz - cleric 2
4 sorcerer 1 wiz 1 cleric 2
5 sorcerer 2 wiz 1 cleric 2
6 sorcerer 3 wiz 1 cleric 2
7 theurge 1 wiz 2 cleric 2
8 theurge 2 wiz 2 cleric 3
9 theurge 3 wiz 3 cleric 3
10 theurge 4 wiz 3 cleric 4
11 theurge 5 wiz 4 cleric 4
12 theurge 6 wiz 4 cleric 5
13 theurge 7 wiz 5 cleric 5
14 theurge 8 wiz 5 cleric 6
15 theurge 9 wiz 6 cleric 6
16 theurge 10 wiz 6 cleric 7
17 cleric 4 wiz 6 cleric 7
18 cleric 5 wiz 6 cleric 8
19 cleric 6 wiz 6 cleric 8
20 cleric 7 wiz 6 cleric 9
Spellprogression with maximal spell levels (wizard, cleric/oracle).
Level Class Spellprogression
1 cleric 1 wiz - cleric 1
2 cleric 2 wiz - cleric 1
3 cleric 3 wiz - cleric 2
4 wizard 1 wiz 1 cleric 2
5 wizard 2 wiz 1 cleric 2
6 wizard 3 wiz 2 cleric 2
7 theurge 1 wiz 2 cleric 2
8 theurge 2 wiz 3 cleric 3
9 theurge 3 wiz 3 cleric 3
10 theurge 4 wiz 4 cleric 4
11 theurge 5 wiz 4 cleric 4
12 theurge 6 wiz 5 cleric 5
13 theurge 7 wiz 5 cleric 5
14 theurge 8 wiz 6 cleric 6
15 theurge 9 wiz 6 cleric 6
16 theurge 10 wiz 7 cleric 7
17 cleric 4 wiz 7 cleric 7
18 cleric 5 wiz 7 cleric 8
19 cleric 6 wiz 7 cleric 8
20 cleric 7 wiz 7 cleric 9
| SheepishEidolon |
I think lagging one spell level behind for a while is an acceptable price for nearly twice the available spells known and spellslots per day. At level 1 to 3 there is no difference at all. At level 4 you actually get an advantage over a regular full caster - because wizard 4 or cleric 4 doesn't add much, but another caster class does. At 5 and 6 this advantage diminishes, and at 7 you are in trouble (2nd level casting vs. 4th level one). Afterwards it alternates between being 1 or 2 spell levels behind, until you made it through mystic theurge. You enjoy a wealth of options and endurance though.
Actually the progression is close to a 6th level caster. They have some powerful class features to complement their casting - and a mystic theurge has also: A second caster class. If you make it to level 17 to 20, this '6th level caster equivalent' turns into something more powerful.
Given the power level of wizard or cleric, it doesn't hurt much if mystic theurge is somewhat weaker.