Tired builds

[PathlessBeth]

BadBird wrote:

To be fair, a Fighter who does something in their first few levels like Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack with a fauchard or Two-Weapon falcatas and Improved Trip is hardly just 'a commoner with higher numbers'.

Um, how? First of, you'd have difficulty taking whirlwind attack "in their first few levels," given all its prerequisites. But even if you did, how does that make you anything other than a commoner with higher numbers? Hell, if it's really that important to you, a commoner can even take whirlwind attack! You'd just end up with a lower attack bonus and some other lower numbers at any given level. Improved Trip? Same deal, they only thing a fighter with Improved Trip has on a Commoner with Improved Trip is higher numbers.

Quote:

Boring builds are the fault of the builder, rather than the class.

If the class you are talking about is something like barbarian or ranger, then sure--those both get abilities that are completely out of reach for a commoner. Fighter? Not so much. Now, I admit that I haven't read every single poorly-edited splatbook that's ever been written, so it is possible that if you scrounge enough obscure sources together, you can find some weird fighter-exclusive ability somewhere that technically sort-of gives you something a commoner can't do. But using the core rules and the popular splatbooks I'm familiar with, it isn't possible for a pure fighter build to be anything other than a commoner with higher numbers. That I know of, anyhow--if you have some super clever build that allows a pure fighter to do something a commoner can't, then by all means: share it:)

[BadBird]

137ben wrote:

BadBird wrote:

To be fair, a Fighter who does something in their first few levels like Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack with a fauchard or Two-Weapon falcatas and Improved Trip is hardly just 'a commoner with higher numbers'.

Um, how? First of, you'd have difficulty taking whirlwind attack "in their first few levels," given all its prerequisites.

1. +F: Dodge / Combat Expertise

2. +F: Mobility
3. Spring Attack
4. +F: Whirlwind Attack

Being able to make mobile Spring Attacks and Whirlwind attacks with a reach weapon is obviously an entirely different league of tactical ability than just 'bigger numbers'. A Commoner would need to be level 9 to do it, at which point the fighter could have branched into 5 feats worth of other feat trees or whatever.

1. Two-Weapon Fighting / +F: (Fighter Feat Retraining at 8) / +H: Combat Expertise
2. +F: Improved Trip
3. Improved Dirty Trick
4. +F: (Fighter Feat Retraining at 8)
5. Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache
6. +F: Quick Dirty Trick
7. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8. +F: Greater Dirty Trick / +(from 4)F: Greater Trip

Grip a Swordmaster's Flair in a hand wielding a spiked gauntlet or cestus or spiked light shield to gain reach with both hands. Blind-and-trip combo things with reach and Dodging Panache, touching a mainhand Shock rapier to their face to blind and the offhand glove/shield to knock down... then take the trip AoO and remaining attacks.

Boring builds are the fault of the builder, not the class.

[dharkus]

I wonder if you could make a build that excelled by being fatigued/exhausted all the time - that'd be quite the tired build

[Blackwaltzomega]

BadBird wrote:

137ben wrote:

BadBird wrote:

To be fair, a Fighter who does something in their first few levels like Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack with a fauchard or Two-Weapon falcatas and Improved Trip is hardly just 'a commoner with higher numbers'.

Um, how? First of, you'd have difficulty taking whirlwind attack "in their first few levels," given all its prerequisites.

1. +F: Dodge / Combat Expertise

2. +F: Mobility
3. Spring Attack
4. +F: Whirlwind Attack

Being able to make mobile Spring Attacks and Whirlwind attacks with a reach weapon is obviously an entirely different league of tactical ability than just 'bigger numbers'. A Commoner would need to be level 9 to do it, at which point the fighter could have branched into 5 feats worth of other feat trees or whatever.

1. Two-Weapon Fighting / +F: (Fighter Feat Retraining at 8) / +H: Combat Expertise
2. +F: Improved Trip
3. Improved Dirty Trick
4. +F: (Fighter Feat Retraining at 8)
5. Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache
6. +F: Quick Dirty Trick
7. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8. +F: Greater Dirty Trick / +(from 4)F: Greater Trip

Grip a Swordmaster's Flair in a hand wielding a spiked gauntlet or cestus or spiked light shield to gain reach with both hands. Blind-and-trip combo things with reach and Dodging Panache, touching a mainhand Shock rapier to their face to blind and the offhand glove/shield to knock down... then take the trip AoO and remaining attacks.

Boring builds are the fault of the builder, not the class.

I really don't see what exactly it is that makes Spring Attack "interesting." You can make a single attack and end your turn 10-20 ft away from the thing you made it against.

...Yay?

At earlier levels I don't understand how that matters at all, because most early monsters don't have iterative attacks and so won't have any problem with just moving in and hitting you anyway.

At later levels monsters have so much HP a single attack every turn will take ages to do any meaningful damage to them and that safe distance isn't much of a safe haven against some critters' reach or nastier abilities.

I dunno, I'm probably not impressed with the line because I've played 5e, where you can spend your movement incrementally so you can hit and run if you're willing to take the AoO or are a rogue and have the power to dodge them as a swift action, but as I have said repeatedly 5e has much better combat than Pathfinder if you want to move.

[Snowlilly]

dharkus wrote:

I wonder if you could make a build that excelled by being fatigued/exhausted all the time - that'd be quite the tired build

A rage cycling barbarian without the dip into lame oracle.

[Wrong John Silver]

Snowlilly wrote:

A rage cycling barbarian without the dip into lame oracle.

I read that and imagine a barbarian getting around on a bicycle. A screaming bicycle.

Probably because he can't walk well. No, he's not an oracle.

[Arachnofiend]

Builds that funnel everything into non-combat by players who expect everything to be non-combat. I usually see this with Diplomacy, though there's the odd stealther every once and a while too.

[Brother Fen]

Anything considered a"build" is tired in my eyes and shows a lack of creativity on the part of the player. Just build your own living breathing character that has a touch of flavor and style along with the crunch and have fun with it. Hyper optimizing doesn't help crappy players as every near TPK I've ever been in has been caused by someone with a tired old build playing stupid and getting the entire party into trouble.

[Kileanna]

Wrong John Silver wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

A rage cycling barbarian without the dip into lame oracle.

I read that and imagine a barbarian getting around on a bicycle. A screaming bicycle.

Probably because he can't walk well. No, he's not an oracle.

Can do it better.

I imagined all that with Queen's song in the background.

[Athaleon]

Brother Fen wrote:

Anything considered a"build" is tired in my eyes and shows a lack of creativity on the part of the player. Just build your own living breathing character that has a touch of flavor and style along with the crunch and have fun with it. Hyper optimizing doesn't help crappy players as every near TPK I've ever been in has been caused by someone with a tired old build playing stupid and getting the entire party into trouble.

You're so much better than the rollplayers.

[Haywire build generator]

Athaleon wrote:

Brother Fen wrote:

Anything considered a"build" is tired in my eyes and shows a lack of creativity on the part of the player. Just build your own living breathing character that has a touch of flavor and style along with the crunch and have fun with it. Hyper optimizing doesn't help crappy players as every near TPK I've ever been in has been caused by someone with a tired old build playing stupid and getting the entire party into trouble.

You're so much better than the rollplayers.

I wouldn't be too sure. No objective metric exists for comparing concepts outside of mechanics, but what occurs within them is strictly measurable. Since a goal for builds is known, one could compare how effective two characters are at achieving that goal.

In terms of what can be measured, a well-constructed, possibly even orthodox build would almost certainly be better than one that has less thought put into it's mechanics interactions.

*Commences making PVP optimized character in anticipation*

[swoosh]

Brother Fen wrote:

Anything considered a"build" is tired in my eyes and shows a lack of creativity on the part of the player. Just build your own living breathing character that has a touch of flavor and style along with the crunch and have fun with it. Hyper optimizing doesn't help crappy players as every near TPK I've ever been in has been caused by someone with a tired old build playing stupid and getting the entire party into trouble.

Anything can be considered a build though. Except I suppose selecting all of your class options completely at random, but that doesn't sound very conducive to what you're suggesting either.

[MannyGoblin]

Kileanna wrote:

Wrong John Silver wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

A rage cycling barbarian without the dip into lame oracle.

I read that and imagine a barbarian getting around on a bicycle. A screaming bicycle.

Probably because he can't walk well. No, he's not an oracle.

Can do it better.

I imagined all that with Queen's song in the background.

Mama Graul sez, "I make the rocken world go round!"