Gish build help: "Nightcrawler"-like arcanist with light / moderate fencing capability


Advice


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Hey guy,

We've got a "swashbuckler" oriented game coming up, and I'm looking to build a decent caster. I'd like him to be able to be decent with a sword, but as a backup (definitely not a primary ability). My core concepts, at this point:

Tiefling race: This is what it is, and I'm not changing it. There's a backstory to this, so there you have it.

Battlefield mobility: The idea of teleporting around the battlefield is a strong focus of my concept.

Arcanist class: I really like this class. A LOT! Most of the versatility of a wizard, without the drawback of having to memorize every single spell slot. Some of the exploits (like Dimensional Slide) are awesome perks, some of which play right into my core concept.

Options considered:

Swashbuckler class dip (1 level): 1d10 hp, +1 BAB, +2 Reflex, Simple and Martial Weapon proficiencies, Weapon Finesse (what mage doesn't favor Dex over Str?), Panache and a couple of deeds. Seems a strong way to get a little sword flair, but costs me 1 CL, and puts me 2 spell level progressions behind a Wizard of the same character level.

- Inspired Blade archetype: Add INT modifier to Panache pool, and gain Weapon Focus (Rapier). A strong option for an already INT-based character, and easier access to Fencing Grace (Dex to damage AND +2 CMD vs Disarm).

- Mysterious Avenger archetype: An extra class skill (Disguise), proficiency with Whip, and use Whip with Weapon Finesse. Not as strong of an option as Inspired Blade, but a fun alternative. With the right feats, I could be disarming/tripping foes from 15 feet away.

- Fencing Grace OR Slashing Grace feat: Dex to damage with a rapier OR light or one-handed weapon. Small bonuses with Fencing Grace if I have a Panache pool.

Arcanist Specific Options:

Dimensional Slide exploit: This is a no-brainer for my concept. Move action teleportation for 10 feet/arcanist level, and still cast a spell or get an attack. Could (theoretically) be used in conjunction with Dimensional Steps and/or Slide (Teleportation school abilities), or with any other spell and Slide.

- School Savant Archetype: Specialize in the aforementioned Teleportation School for some Nightcrawler-esque shenanigans.

- School Understanding (Teleportation): Alternate option to School Savant archetype. Not as cool, as any effective Slide will cost an Arcane Reservoir point, but only costs one Exploit instead of 3, and gives me earlier access to the Extra Exploit feat.

-- Dimensional Agility feat chain: See the previous Nightcrawler statement.

- Blade Adept archetype: Get a cool Black Blade (rapier) and access to some Magus abilities at the cost of 3 exploits. I'm not sure if this is a good option or not, as "fencing" is intended to be an occasional thing, rather than a staple of my build. Doesn't stack with School Savant, so School Understanding (Teleportation) would become a necessity to my concept.

- Magus VMC: The variant multiclass bonuses gained from the Magus give me access to an actual Arcane Pool, potentially ALL Magus Arcana, and Spellstrike. The cost of (potentially) 5 feats over the course of my career, however, makes this option iffy, as swordplay is intended to be a secondary option.

- Eldritch Knight: 1d10 hp/level, full BAB, strong Fort saves, bonus combat feats, and 9/10 CL increase. This option makes swordplay a legitimate option. The downfall is losing yet another level of caster level and spell progression.

Other things to know:

- The game starts at 4th level, so Archetypes that lose level 1 and 3 exploits aren't going to hurt as much. I can pick up an exploit (and take the Extra Exploit feat) at level 5... UNLESS, I dip a level in Swash, then I would have to wait til 6 for the class feature and 7 for the feat.

- Rapier is my melee weapon of choice. Melee damage is not really my focus, rather I'm more interested in flair... combat maneuvers such as dirty trick, disarm, and trip.

- I'm really, REALLY interested in the shenanigans I could pull with the Dimensional Agility feat chain.

I also have a related question: the Dimensional Slide exploit does not call out any restrictions on teleportation in regards to teleporting creatures/allies WITH the arcanist. Can an arcanist Dimensional Slide with an ally or enemy? If no, is there a source on this information?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!


One other note: Our games have never made it to max (20th) level, so I really don't need to worry about losing capstones. Our average party level tends to cap out between 9th and 16th, with an average around 12th. That means I will likely never see spells over level 6 (though not unfathomable). I tend to design my builds with the INTENT of hitting 20... just in case, but the fact is we have never hit level cap in any of our games.

Grand Lodge

Depending on how far you go past 7th, a really effective build is:
-1 Barbarian
-6 Archanist
-X Eldritch Knight

Focus on polymorph spells, AC buffs, and the dimensional dervish feat line for some truely impressive mobility towards the later half of your game, and a pretty decent build for the rest of the time. Not as graceful sounding as a swashbuckler build, but...

The Nightcrawler build I was playing with was a tiefling with 3 levels of arcanist spread out across the first 7 or so levels with swashbuckler (inspired blade) letting me prevent from getting too MADD, and focusing on maxing out my crit range as early as possible. I found I could have a really strong attack roll and drop a good deal of damage while having a mobility far superior to any mundane build (only 30ft porting, but that is usually more than enough).

-edit-
Sorry, I haven't done gish in forever and didn't even see it in the title. One could easily adapt either build and RAPIDLY build a much stronger character without much work.


I've looked at trying to implement a similar build fairly recently, I came up with another idea in the end, but I do have some 'research' that might be useful.

Out of the Arcanist's Dimension Slide, the Conjuration level 8 Wizard School power and the Teleportation level 1 Wizard School power, only the Teleportation level 1 power, 'Shift' has the magic words 'as if using dimension door' and therefore definitely unlocks and is usable with the Dimensional Agility feat chain.
If you want to use this via School Understanding Exploit, remember it takes a Swift Action to enhance the Exploit so you'd need to do it a round before you intended to use it (and have a decent +cha bonus, so it lasts long enough).
The other two abilities, whilst excellent for other purposes are not guaranteed to allow or work with the feat chain, so these would be a 'check with your DM' situation.

Until the VMC Magus or Blade Adept levels get you SpellStrike an Arcanist won't have any action efficiency enhancements to allow magic and spells to be merged in a single turn (e.g. a Magus gets Spell Combat, a War Priest gets Swift Action buffs).

On the good side:
You are going to have amazing mobility and that will allow you to position yourself in such a way to help keep you alive.
However: Unless you are using a Quickened Spell (or Lesser Metamagic Rod, which is awesome but very expensive) you can only use one 'part' of your build in any given turn- either using your sword/combat maneuvers or using a spell. You can still pull in things like Dimension Slide or Shift, but a lot of one of your 'sets' of class abilities is going to be wasted that turn- generally, using your spells is going to be the better option.

If you go for Maneuvers, you'll need a way to address your lack of accuracy, until/unless you start getting levels as an Eldritch Knight. True Strike is your best bet to guaranteed it lands when it matters, but without the Magus' Spell Combat you'd only be able to use it every other round- the fact you need a lead-up time and the very poor action efficiency means it's best saved for something really dangerous where it's worth two of your turns to prevent a Full Attack of theirs.
A single level of Magus, with your high intelligence, would allow you two Spell-Combat + True-Strike Maneuver successes each day, if you take the feats to integrate them into a Full Attack. It is probably not worth it, but it's an option IF want to invest that much in melee and maneuvers- in terms of raw power you'd be better off with an extra Arcanist level.

Look for those spells that replicate maneuvers quite successfully, if you can make the saves hard enough. I'd start with Touch of Blindness at low levels, to replicate Dirty Trick (Blind).
In fact, Touch spells that last multiple touches are fairly potent for this build- if you take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Unarmed Strike you can in theory apply touch spells that have multiple uses (such as Touch of Blindness or Chill Touch) as part of a Full Attack Action that merges unarmed strike (or Natural Weapon) attacks with your sword.

Back to accuracy and making your blows land:
Weapon Focus you have already mentioned, and you can use the Shadow Veil Arcana or a Blur spell to activate Moonlight Stalker and you'll be mobile enough to get use out of Desperate Battler (but this is a Morale bonus, so skip it if you have a bard or similar) almost every turn but it will still be an uphill battle to keep pace with the dedicated melee combatants.

Most buff spells that boost accuracy and damage you will find it better to use on others - it's good to give yourself a +2 Attack and +2 Damage on your one attack every turn, but it's great to give that same bonus to the Fighter who gets three attacks each round or the Rogue who gets an explosion of damage on every hit.
You can use Polymorph spells to get around this to a degree- a form with lots of natural weapons will get enough extra attacks to make it worth using some buffs on your own attacks and damage. The Shift Caster/Lepidstadt Shifter is probably vital if you want to do this.

If you really want to go into melee to stab things, I recommend the Sense Vitals spell (level 2), which gives a nice chunk of Sneak Attack damage on your attacks as long as you are flanking- you should have the mobility to be flanking on every attack with maybe a swift action to escape after the stab is done. Twilight Knife is also nice to set this up.

That is all I have at the moment, if I think of anything else I'll add it in.


Thanks for the useful tips. Lots of good stuff here.

From my initial post, obviously not all of the options I'm considering are compatible with one another. Among the following incompatible options (or ones I'm unsure of), which do would you recommend and which would you recommend against, entirely?

- Inspired Blade or Mysterious Avenger (Swashbuckler archetypes). I'm sure that between these two, the obvious choice is Inspired Blade, but you may recommend neither, or possibly better option(s).

- School Savant (Teleportation) or Blade Adept (Arcanist archetypes). I'm leaning heavily toward School Savant, but Blade Adept has some fun bonuses of its own. Blade Adept would definitely mean taking the School Understanding (Teleportation) exploit, but would also delay any form of combat teleport out to level 5 (not a huge wait, as we're starting at 4th).

- Magus VMC or 1-3 Level Magus Dip. With or without Blade Adept, these both open up some cool options. I think they are both BETTER with the Blade Adept arcanist archetype. I didn't mention a Magus dip, but just considered it as an alternative method of gaining proficiency with rapier AND opening the door for the Eldritch Knight option. 1 level gives spell combat, 2 gives spellstrike, and three gives me access to Magus Arcana (and thusly, the feat Extra Arcana). I'm not sure, however, if I should even bother with any Magus or Magus-like options. I don't want to spread myself too thin.

- Eldritch Knight. The benefits it grants are great for a combat boon, but I'm not sure it's worth slowing advancement with my spell progression. The earliest I could get into this class (without shenanigans) would be 8th level (6 Arcanist, 1 "martial class", 1 EK). This would give me a 60 ft Dimensional Slide, and a 15 ft Shift, and I'd probably never see Dimensional Steps. I don't know if there is a better PrC option for my concept, specifically that doesn't sacrifice much (if any) spell progression.

I'm aware that my GM may not allow Dimensional Slide to work with the Dimensional Assault feat chain. That's okay. Shift [u]should[/u] qualify. Our group is generally lenient on things like this, so I [u]might[/u] get away with using both abilities with the feat chain.

As far as the sword fighting, it's not my focus. It's one of those things that would be fun to do every once in a while, or to help my allies out from time to time. I just want to be an "okay" fencer. One of the other characters is a Swash/Pally combo... I'll let him do the heavy lifting, melee-wise.


So, I'm actually playing a similar character right now. I found what I think is a decent way to get into the dimensional feats early, though you should definitely talk to your DM about it. The race Samsaran has a nice little ability called Mystic Past Lives: You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

This allows you to pick up Dimension door off of the summoner's spell list giving it to you a whole level earlier, meaning you can start the feat chains at level 5 rather than level 7. Not to mention, Samsarans are blue, so that pushes the whole Nightcrawler thing even further.

The progression I ended up using was Fighter 1, Wizard 6(1 more for shift of 15 feet, same BAB bonus as an EK level), EK 3(going to 10). The fighter level can easily be substituted for a Swashbuckler level

EDIT: On a side note of the Mystic Past Lives ability, in addition to Dimension door I took a lot of cleric spells off of the Witch's list since they cast them as Arcane, so you could in fact run around with Cure spells, Resurrection spells, and other goodies. Also(Ask your DM about this), since you also learn Dimension door as a wizard as a 4th level spell, you can have both 4th and 3rd level spell slots dedicated to them, giving you more than enough dimension doors a day.

So you could end up with something around the lines of this

Wizard 6
Swashbuckler 1
EK 10

1 Whatever you want
3 Whatever you want
5 Dimensional Agility
W Craft Wondrous (Or metamagic, or other craft, etc)
7 Dimensional Assault
9 Dimensional Dervish
11 Dimensional Savant (If you have a rogueish type Swashbuckler, having an enemy flanked at basically all times could be useful)
13 Whatever you want
15 Whatever you want
17 Whatever you want

OR

Arcanist 6
Swashbuckler 1
EK 10

1 Whatever you want
3 Whatever you want
5 Whatever you want
7 Dimensional Agility
9 Dimensional Assault
11 Dimensional Dervish
13 Dimensional Savant
15 Whatever you want
17 Whatever you want
19 Whatever you want

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

At moderate to high level, the best nightcrawler is probably the Magus; he can teleport and make a full attack at his destination, which the arcanist cannot match.

At level 7, use the Storm Step spell; at level 10, use Dimension Door with the Dimensional Agility feat.


I should emphasize that I never finished the build I was looking into, so these thoughts are all largely untested.

Inspiring Blade VS Masked Avenger
I don't know a lot about Swashbucklers (they didn't really come up when I was planning my own murder-teleporter) but at level 1, it really comes down to Rapier with 3 or 4 extra Panache vs the Whip.
Whip is really, really good once you get SpellStrike, as it allows touch attacks with considerable Reach, but that takes a lot of feats to use at full power and you don't have many.
On the other hand, the Rapier requires far fewer feats to use effectively and the Inspired Panache will probably give you more than double the starting Panache.
How often do you expect to need to use your level 1 deeds, bearing in mind Parry and Riposte is heavily based on your (fairly low) BAB?
Also, do you think it's cooler to use a whip or a rapier?

Blade Adept VS School Savant (Teleportation)
I like the concept behind the Blade Adept a lot. It's flavorful and very cool, plus it gives Spellstrike much earlier than the Magus VMC.
However, look at the number of Exploits you are wanting here:
You need School Understanding (Conjuration), Spellstrike (Presumably the point of the Archetype), Eldritch Blade (to keep the Blade progressing with Eldritch Knight levels) and perhaps Arcane Barrier, Arcane Weapon and perhaps a few Feats or Magus Arcana. And that's just the ones that support the Archetype, not the ones generally useful for all Arcanists.
You'd have 1 Exploit as a level 6 Blade Adept Arcanist, from level 5, so the rest would either have to come from feats or be left out entirely.
Also note you cannot enchant a Black Blade with Craft Arms and Armour- you can boost it temporarily with Arcane Weapon, but this does not allow you to add a number of useful properties (including the Agile and Bane properties) until the 'Alter Enchantments' Greater Exploit.

School Savant also takes a lot of Exploits away, but it doesn't add any must-haves in either. It can, however, be almost entirely replaced by the School Understanding exploit and a single level of Wizard- but it won't progress if you multi class into Eldrich Knight. It also sets your spell-casting back that little bit further, which might be worth it if you're happy to focus on low-level spells support spells for a while longer, but if you're in a hurry to get the the game-changing spells, it's one more delay.
If you do do this, take mostly buffs or no-save options with your non-Arcanist spells- Long Arm is a fine place to start, if you decided against taking a whip, or Enlarge Person if you are buffing a Strength based warrior instead of yourself.

Magus:
Magus is awesome. But it works best as whole unit. You get the wonderful Spell Recall at Level 4, spell strike at 2, Spell Combat at 1. I do think it would be fun to play a Magus 6 (for Broad Study)/Arcanist but I think that plan has a lot of hurdles that would need to be carefully steered around. There is an option using Fame in one of the Inner Sea books that allows you to add +3 effective levels (including gaining extra spellslots!) to one of your classes and +1 to another, which would even give this plan 8th level spells, but I think that's one of those abilities that most DM's would disallow.

Entry to Eldritch Knight:
Remember there are hybrid classes that add Martial Weapon Proficiency- heading into Eldritch Knight as a Magus, Skald or similar will get you an extra couple of spellslots and a related ability or two in exchange.
However, you won't get that +1 BAB and the feats/abilities you'd get from taking a level in fighter/swashbuckler etc. With all the Archetypes here, there are far too many options to list but you will almost certainly find something useful that gives Martial Weapon Proficiency.


The spell Dazzling Blade can be used as a major melee boon when you're going to fight; you can cast it as a swift action minutes ahead of time, then drop blind at at will with a free action when attacking. It's level 1, so it's easy to make it Persistent with or without a metamagic trait. With the cast/deploy time, you can even use it twice in a single round with just swift/free.


Alright, so I had some tough calls to make on this build (a lot of "But, I wanna do THIS!!!"), but ultimately it comes down to how can I get the most out of this character at all levels, while simultaneously remaining true to the core elements of the concept. Core elements being:

1) Tiefling race.
2) Arcanist (primary) class.
3) Ultimate teleporter.
4) Backup defensive fencer.
5) Battlefield manipulator (primarily spells, with a little "melee").
6) Background as a thief (used inherent magic (teleportation) to break into and out of buildings; a little bit of stealth and acrobatics thrown in for flavor)

Game starts at level 4, so that shores up the pain of the ultra low levels. If there are suggestions on how to improve upon my approach, advice is welcome. I'm not changing the race. I'm not changing the primary class. Here's the plan:

The Basics:

- Tiefling race, Daemon-spawn variant heritage (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis). As there is no feat requirement for an Aasimar to choose a variant heritage, our table rules that ANY race with variant heritage options does not need to expend a feat to choose these alternative options. Additionally, I'm sacrificing my racial SLA for an additional +2 Int (granting +2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis). If the community feels I would be better off with either a +2 Cha bonus (for +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Wis), or sticking with the standard Tiefling stats and either shoring up the Cha penalty with the +2 Cha bonus (for +2 Dex, +2 Int, no penalty) or keeping the Cha penalty and taking the Int boost (+2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Cha), I will strongly consider these suggestions. Ultimately, the Charisma penalty would only influence my short game, but not the long game so much.
- Prehensile Tail will replace Fiendish Sorcery, as I'll not be a sorcerer, and the tail could be very useful. I wish the Grasping Tail feat was cooler, but it really does nothing for this trait, so it worthlessness potentially saves me a feat! No Nightcrawler fighting with a sword in his tail. Hahaha!

Level 4:
- Arcanist 4 (no archetype)
- Exploits: 1) School Understanding (Teleportation), 3) Dimensional Slide.
- Feats: 1) MWP (Rapier), 3) Weapon Finesse.
- Skill priority: Perception, Spellcraft, Know (Arcana), UMD, and a little to Stealth and Acrobatics.

This should be enough to keep me more than reasonably strong, as level 4 arcane casters go, while supporting my ultimate teleporter concept.

Levels 5/6:
- School Savant (Teleportation) Arcanist 5/6 (retrained)
- Archetype Powers: Shift (10/15 ft, 3 + Int mod/day), Summoner's Charm (+2/+3 rounds on summons per casting)
- Exploits: 5) Dimensional Slide.
- Feats: 1) MWP (Rapier), 3) Weapon Finesse, 5) Weapon Focus (Rapier). All these feats are a lead-in to....

Level 7:
- SS(T) Arcanist 6
- Powers and Exploits remain unchanged.
- Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1
- Archetype Abilities: More Class Skills (Acrobatics and Perception just got a +3 bonus), Combat Proficiencies (Light Armor, Buckler, Simple and Martial Weapons), Inspired Panache (Int+Cha Pool), Inspired Finesse (Weapon Finesse + Weapon Focus w/Rapier), Deeds (Derring-Do, Dodging Panache, Opportune Parry and Reposte).
- Feats (all retrained): 1) Improved Initiative, 3) Combat Reflexes, 5) Dimensional Agility 7) Fencing Grace

Level 8:
- SS(T) Arcanist 6, IB Swash 1, Eldritch Knight 1 (it's all gravy beyond this point)
- All the above. Plus...
- Bonus Combat Feat: Fencing Grace (retraining the L7 feat to Extra Arcanist Exploit (Potent Magic)). I'll retrain this if I ever get an Agile rapier, though I'm not sure what to replace it with. All maneuver feats have the stupid Combat Expertise feat tax. I HATE that feat!

BEYOND 8TH

At this point, my gravy train has arrived. My level 8 BAB is +5, I'm likely not going to go past 16, so every level moving forward is +1 BAB, +1 Fighter (equivocal) level, and +1 CL/Spell Advancement. At 12 and 16 (EK 5 and 9) I'll get bonus combat feats, as well. I'll just illustrate feat choices, at this point:

9) CL 7 (3rd) / BAB +6/+1 - Dimensional Assault
11) CL 9 (4th) / BAB +8/+3 - Dimensional Dervish
12) CL 10 (5th) / BAB +9/+4 - Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
13) CL 11 (5th) / BAB +10/+5 - Critical Focus (???)
15) CL 13 (6th) / BAB +12/+7/+2 - Bleeding Critical (???)
16) CL 14 (7th) / BAB +13/+8/+3 - ??? (combat feat)

---

As the game has not yet begun, only the 4th level build options are "set in stone". I'm pretty firm on most things up through 8th level, but beyond that I'm pretty open. I'm not 100% certain on my feats from 8th level up, and am open to suggestions.

I didn't outline any spells here, but those are open to suggestions, as well. I'm going to be building this character first thing in the morning.

Don't worry about stats. Order of importance = INT, DEX, CON, CHA, WIS, STR. If, for any reason, I need STR (like Power Attack), then it takes precedent over WIS. Easy peasy.


BadBird wrote:
The spell Dazzling Blade can be used as a major melee boon when you're going to fight; you can cast it as a swift action minutes ahead of time, then drop blind at at will with a free action when attacking. It's level 1, so it's easy to make it Persistent with or without a metamagic trait. With the cast/deploy time, you can even use it twice in a single round with just swift/free.

That's a pretty cool spell! I LIKE IT!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Note that the Dirty Fighting feat is a (much better) alternative to combat expertise.

Exploiter Wizard can get into EK a level earlier (but has less spell flexibility).


Here's an idea for dealing with the 1/2 BAB issue if you go for combat maneuvers (also see the following posts), but it is really feat-intensive: If you go Blade Adept Arcanist VMC Magus, you can use the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana to get equivalent to full BAB. Blade Adept Arcanist gives you effective Magus levels for determining the effect of Magus Arcana, but doesn't have Maneuver Mastery in its list of Magus Arcana; VMC lets you get this, but doesn't give you effective Magus levels for determining the effect, so you need both pieces for this to work. Note that this DOESN'T go into Eldritch Knight, so the only non-casting level is the Blood Conduit Bloodrager dip I use to get the Aberrant Bloodline, but you don't need this, so change Bloodline Development to School Understanding, and skip the Mad Magic feat, and rearrange the other feats to make up for being a Tiefling instead of a Human.

Edit: Actually, you need more feat rearrangement to make up for not dipping Blood Conduit Bloodrager, which gives you a bonus Combat Maneuver feat prerequisite-free -- if you don't do this dip, you will need to squeeze in Dirty Fighting.


Kurald Galain wrote:

Note that the Dirty Fighting feat is a (much better) alternative to combat expertise.

Exploiter Wizard can get into EK a level earlier (but has less spell flexibility).

OMG! Dirty Fighting is SOOOOOO much better than stupid Combat Expertise (Did I mention I hate that feat? Hahaha!)

I'm not so worried about getting into EK earlier. I prefer the spell flexibility I get from being an arcanist.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Have you considered going from Swashbuckler to Shadow Dancer? The build would be dependent upon dim light, but that's not usually hard to come by.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Here's an idea for dealing with the 1/2 BAB issue if you go for combat maneuvers (also see the following posts), but it is really feat-intensive: If you go Blade Adept Arcanist VMC Magus, you can use the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana to get equivalent to full BAB. Blade Adept Arcanist gives you effective Magus levels for determining the effect of Magus Arcana, but doesn't have Maneuver Mastery in its list of Magus Arcana; VMC lets you get this, but doesn't give you effective Magus levels for determining the effect, so you need both pieces for this to work. Note that this DOESN'T go into Eldritch Knight, so the only non-casting level is the Blood Conduit Bloodrager dip I use to get the Aberrant Bloodline, but you don't need this, so change Bloodline Development to School Understanding, and skip the Mad Magic feat, and rearrange the other feats to make up for being a Tiefling instead of a Human.

Edit: Actually, you need more feat rearrangement to make up for not dipping Blood Conduit Bloodrager, which gives you a bonus Combat Maneuver feat prerequisite-free -- if you don't do this dip, you will need to squeeze in Dirty Fighting.

So, I very much considered adding the Magus VMC, and it's still a strong option. I've read your posts on this, and level-dependent Magus Arcana, like Maneuver Mastery. I honestly feel this is a simple oversight on the part of the developers. Quite frankly, the entry on Variant Multiclassing (the portion at the beginning, before detailing specific class VMCs) should have included a sentence to this effect: "All class features granted by a variant multiclass advancement treat the total character level as the effective class level, unless otherwise stated in any given specific class entry." I feel that if there is no specification regarding effective level, that value should then be determined by character level. Is there evidence or support to the contrary? If my GM were to interpret the VMC in this manner, do you feel it's an option I should consider?


Son of the Veterinarian wrote:


Have you considered going from Swashbuckler to Shadow Dancer? The build would be dependent upon dim light, but that's not usually hard to come by.

The Shadowdancer is a cool class for a rogue type who wants to be a faux teleporter, but it has absolutely zero spell casting support, so every level in this class is a non-caster level. It's very likely that my character is going to be the primary arcane caster in the party, and I'm already hamstringing myself a little by losing 2 levels worth of caster advancement.

Ultimately, this would be a great option if I were any non-caster class... rogue types can shore up their Sneak Attack deficit with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat. There is no Accomplished Spell Caster feat.


^That's what I originally thought about VMC Magus as well, but as noted in a thread where I posted a Reach Eldritch Knight build, you can't take anything for granted, and read literally, VMC Magus only gives you an effective Magus level for the purpose of qualifying for Magus Arcana. Last time I went down the list of Magus Arcana, only a small fraction of them (such as Maneuver Mastery) depend upon Magus level for effect, even though many of them have a Magus level required for qualification, so we are unlikely to see an Errata/FAQ for this any time soon, if ever. Hence the hoops I jump through with Blade Adept Arcanist. 8f your GM house-rules VMC Magus as giving you an effective Magus level for the purpose of determining the effects of Magus Arcana, then this build becomes more flexible, and you can use Arcana st archetypes that can'take be combined with Blade Adept, such as School Savant.

Note that if you don't use Blade Adept AND don't do a martial dip, you will still have serious feat starvation.


I have to say, going EK just to dabble a little with combat is kind of a harsh trade, especially with Arcanist spell levels. EK can be great, but if you're taking a hit that puts you a whole spell level behind on an already slower progression class you might want to really make the most of it.

Alternatively you could go full Blade Adept with Arcane Accuracy and debuffs to make up for BAB, but it takes a long time to gain iterative attacks and maneuver feats.


Another option I considered was to, at level 5, retrain into Blade Adept Arcanist, shifting School Understanding and Dimensional Slide into my 5th level exploit and feat gains. At level 7, I would retrain again, retraining out of my level 3 feat to gain VMC Wizard. This would ONLY be an option if I can take the Extra Arcana feat to select a Magus arcana from the full list, not just from the Blade Adept list.


Note that Blade Adept has a huge feat/exploit crunch to get online; Adept/EK ends up absolutely starving for feats to actually get some exploits going.


If you retrain so that your list of Magus Arcana no longer includes Maneuver Mastery, you become unable to use feats that depend upon that -- in this case Extra Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery) (if Blade Adept Arcanist even lets you use Extra Magus Arcana at all -- not sure that it does, but it does let you use Extra Arcane Exploit, which it modifies by letting you take a limited set of Magus Arcana as Arcane Exploits).

Also: Mark Seifter post about effective Magus level from VMC Magus.

Also forgot to mention that another reason why Eldritch Knight is not so good for Arcanist is that it doesn't progress your class features other than spellcasting, and Arcanist actually depends a fair amount on these progressing.


One EK option that's often overlooked is Strength Patron Witch, which gets Divine Favor. Crossed with Fate's Favored it's about as good as it gets for spell buffing - especially when trying to make a dex-to-damage EK actually hurt things. It also affects many spells like Stone Discus, which can also be used with Deadly Aim for a pretty nasty no-save no-resist beating.

Witch/EK also grants Dimension Door by 9, and has interesting utility hexes. It's even possible to go Sohei Monk with Hex Channeler Witch and take Crusader's Flurry with a dex-to-damage weapon by the time you get into EK levels.

Edit: and Witch gets exclusive access to Ill Omen, which is an awesome spell and even better quickened.


Witch into Eldritch Knight also suffers from lack of progression of Hexes (and for some archetypes, Hex substitute class features that are actually pretty good).

Eldritch Knight is best for classes that have limited class features other than spells: Wizard (not the Exploiter archetype) and certain Bloodlines of Sorcerer.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Witch into Eldritch Knight also suffers from lack of progression of Hexes (and for some archetypes, Hex substitute class features that are actually pretty good).

Eldritch Knight is best for classes that have limited class features other than spells: Wizard (not the Exploiter archetype) and certain Bloodlines of Sorcerer.

There's absolutely no reason that a Witch/EK has to go picking options that don't scale well with their 5/6 levels of Witch. They've got tons of choices like Cauldron, Nails, Tongues, Flight, Hex Channeler for prerequisites, Synergist for low-light vision or scent, and so on. Saying Witch/EK is bad because some Hex/Archetype options don't scale well is like saying Wizard/EK is bad because many Schools/Archetypes don't scale well. For spellcasting, Witch/EK has access to some absolutely ideal spells like Divine Favor, Ill Omen and Ironskin.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

If you retrain so that your list of Magus Arcana no longer includes Maneuver Mastery, you become unable to use feats that depend upon that -- in this case Extra Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery) (if Blade Adept Arcanist even lets you use Extra Magus Arcana at all -- not sure that it does, but it does let you use Extra Arcane Exploit, which it modifies by letting you take a limited set of Magus Arcana as Arcane Exploits).

Also: Mark Seifter post about effective Magus level from VMC Magus.

Also forgot to mention that another reason why Eldritch Knight is not so good for Arcanist is that it doesn't progress your class features other than spellcasting, and Arcanist actually depends a fair amount on these progressing.

Well, that little blurb from Mark is pretty lame.

As far as getting Extra Magus Arcana as a Blade Adept Arcanist, taking the Blade Adept Exploit "Magus Arcana" should qualify, as you now technically possess the class feature. I'm fairly certain it would be skirting the rules, however, to use the feat to gain access to all Magus Arcana. Then again, maybe it wouldn't be. The archetype sets it up so you can choose from a select group of Arcana via spending Exploits. Once you have Magus Arcana (qualifying you for the Extra Arcana feat), who's to say you couldn't use the FEAT to select from the full list???


If a Blade Adept wants to take Extra Magus Arcana based on the fact that they've got a Blade Adept class feature called "Magus Arcana", then they gain an additional *Blade Adept* "Magus Arcana" as it's defined by the class feature they used to take it.

Regardless, assuming a Blade Adept/ EK takes the mandatory Eldritch Blade with their level 5 exploit and then goes EK, they're now looking at needing a feat for every single other exploit they want, including Spell Strike. If they want just Spell Strike, Dimensional Slide, Potent Magic and Arcane Accuracy, they're spending every free feat before 15 and can forget about Dimensional Dervish.


BadBird wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Witch into Eldritch Knight also suffers from lack of progression of Hexes (and for some archetypes, Hex substitute class features that are actually pretty good).

Eldritch Knight is best for classes that have limited class features other than spells: Wizard (not the Exploiter archetype) and certain Bloodlines of Sorcerer.

There's absolutely no reason that a Witch/EK has to go picking options that don't scale well with their 5/6 levels of Witch. They've got tons of choices like Cauldron, Nails, Tongues, Flight, Hex Channeler for prerequisites, Synergist for low-light vision or scent, and so on. Saying Witch/EK is bad because some Hex/Archetype options don't scale well is like saying Wizard/EK is bad because many Schools/Archetypes don't scale well. For spellcasting, Witch/EK has access to some absolutely ideal spells like Divine Favor, Ill Omen and Ironskin.

This is true, but I think that if you pick only non-scaling or very slowly-scaling Hexes, you are limiting yourself too much for what you get in most cases. At one time I made an exception for Orc Scarred Witch Doctor, but then this got Errata'd . . . .


The thing for me with Witch is that Divine Favor means an additional +4 to attack and damage by level 9, on top of Heroism. With that kind of extra combat power you're way more free with the rest of the build, since preserving combat effectiveness isn't really an issue the way it would be. A level 9 Witch/EK could use TWF and Power Attack and still have the accuracy of a Wizard/EK hoarding attack bonus. I have a concept build for an Unarmed Fighter 1/ Synergist Witch 8/ EK that goes sword/unarmed/claw/gore; without the damage and accuracy bonus from Divine Favor it would be questionable, instead of death on the hoof.

It's possible for a Spell Sage Wizard to take Preferred Spell with Divine Favor and potentially other spells, so that particular Wizard archetype can essentially do the same thing.


Honestly, if you aren't planning on getting to very high levels anyway, I would recommend going Inspired Blade swashbuckler 1/Blade Bound magus X.


Scripps wrote:
Honestly, if you aren't planning on getting to very high levels anyway, I would recommend going Inspired Blade swashbuckler 1/Blade Bound magus X.

Honestly, I think this is close to the direction I'm ultimately leaning. I don't know how I would effectively make the Magus a Nightcrawler-esque combat teleporter, so if you've got some advice on that... but I prefer to go Arcanist for the exploits and flexibility.

---

So, don't judge... Our group uses a generous ability score generation method. We don't use point buy. For each stat we roll 4d6, re-roll any individual die results of 1 (repeatedly, until there are no results of 1), and then total the highest three. We prefer a high-fantasy, heroic flair to our games, where the heroes are a cut above the typical "best"... paragons among their respective peoples. Legends. As such, my results yielded me the following (post racial modifiers) ability scores (arranged in my chosen order - parenthetic numbers represent pre-racial mods):

STR 10/+0
DEX 20/+5 (18)
CON 15/+2
INT 20/+5 (16)
WIS 12/+1 (14)
CHA 15/+2

Now, I'm a Daemon-born Tiefling (+2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 WIS). I sacrificed my SLA for the additional +2 INT bonus, and took the Prehensile Tail alternate race trait (he's not a sorcerer). (As previously mentioned, we don't require the Fiendish Heritage feat, as Paizo didn't make similar requirements for all races with alternate heritage options... plus it's not an upgrade, but rather a lateral shift.) I realize I could have given myself DEX 18 and INT 22, but I also wanted to get the most out of the Weapon Finesses feat and other Dex-based combat applications. I also considered the +2 CHA (in place of SLA), which would have netted me DEX 18, INT 20, CHA 17. If you think this would be better, let me know...

Since I'm not the meat shield or glass cannon, I will save my feats and shell out the cash for Agile weapon enchants. This will save me the 1 or 2 feats I would have spent on Fencing Grace and Weapon Focus. Initially, I was going to take my Swashbuckler one-level dip as an Inspired Blade (INT to panache and free Weapon Focus (rapier)), but I don't care for the limited version of Weapon Finesse (rapiers ONLY), and have opted to go with the Mysterious Avenger archetype (gain Whip proficiency, use whip with Swashbuckler class features). This will make my dex-based combat abilities more versatile. I like options. Scorpion Whip FTW (I don't care about the performance quality).

New considered feat list (in no particular order): Dimensional Agility (maybe), Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Dirty Fighting, Extra Reservoir (maybe), Extra Arcanist Exploit (maybe), Improved Trip (maybe), Improved Disarm (maybe), others???

Are there any feats that allow additional uses per day of supernatural (Su) and/or Arcane School powers? Like the Shift (Su) teleportation school power, for example? The Extra Reservoir feat and Swift Consume exploit will make it easy enough to consistently power my Dimensional Slide exploit.

Speaking of Dimensional Slide... I asked this question before (I think) but never saw a response. Can an arcanist Dimensional Slide with a passenger(s)? What about cumbersome objects (say, a comrade's corpse)? Shift, Dimensional Step, Abundant Step, and a number of similar abilities specifically state whether you can or cannot have passengers, and what the parameters are if allowed. There is no such mention in the Dimesional Slide exploit entry, and I've seen no errata on the subject. Can I just have my entire army join hands, take a 5' step with me, and Dimensional Slide them across a 200' chasm (at 20th level, of course), at the mere cost of 1 Arcane Reservoir point? There's no documentation to the contrary that I can find. Unreasonable? Perhaps. Unspecified? Definitely.


Abilities that reference Dimension Door will then tell you if you can take creatures with you in the way that you can with Dimension Door. Dimensional Slide does not reference Dimension Door, and says nothing about taking other creatures with you, so there's zero grounds for being able to do it.

Do note that the Agile property isn't just about 'cash'; if you have to use an Agile weapon, then you will always have a worse weapon than you could have had if you had simply added more enhancement or another property. Maybe it's worth it, maybe not; but when you're dealing with a build that's struggling to overcome lower damage and hit-chance, losing out on a better weapon can hurt. The same could be said for Weapon Focus, if you're skipping that too.

If you're spending a feat to get scorpion whip, do note that you could be grabbing proficiency with something like estoc or katana instead; you're using a 1d4 low-crit weapon when you could be using a weapon with high damage and/or high crit, and you're doing so on a build that struggles for damage and gains panache from crits.

The big disadvantage of Inspired Blade that often seems to be overlooked is that you never get panache back by killing, which can be really problematic. Personally, I would consider just going with a normal Swashbuckler, using Fencing or Slashing Grace, and being pleased that Weapon Focus is helping to overcome your weak attack.


Dimensional Steps (Sp):

At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each additional creature brought with you.

So, in this ability the character *poof* teleport, as per... well, nothing. We'll just assume you know what we mean. Not even a dab of flavor text, but we'll tell you that they can bring ride-alongs on their ambiguously vague (albeit short) trip. I'd also like it to be noted, this SLA allows you to bring additional creatures, without further details. So, at 8th level, me and 7 of my closest Tarrasque buddies can hold hands and go on a 30 ft jaunt through space? I don't know why we'd want to, but it seems like we can! Can I take a person-sized object? Apparently not, as it makes no mention of transporting objects. Additionally, me and my buddies are going to arrive naked, as there's no mention of any sort of load-bearing capacity. Apparently only living, organic matter is transported. What a horrible ability!

Dimensional Slide (Su):

The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

This ability lets the character *ahem* "create a dimensional crack that (they) can step through to reach another location." So here, the ability gives us a little visual on how this works. We create a crack that we step through and (presumably) step out of a similar crack at our chosen destination. This ability is even worse! There's no mention of load-bearing capacity, so I suppose we can assume we loose any that isn't the Arcanist themselves somewhere in an alternate dimension before we step back out? They do say that all magic comes with a price.

What I'm getting at is what's to prevent you from holding someone's hand and having them follow you through the "dimensional crack" (say, as a readied action)?

I realize I'm being facetious and sarcastic, but my point is that every other example I can think of (as far as teleportation type spells and abilities) make a specific note about passengers, and most also make note about the load-bearing capacity of the spell or power. We can certainly assume that your gear goes with you, but what qualifies? Anything in your current possession? If I'm strong enough to carry my unconscious comrade, can he go with me, or does he fall to the ground when I pass through the crack? What if he's conscious and riding piggy-back? What if *I* am riding piggy-back and create the dimensional crack in his path? Is the magic only in tune with my DNA code, and so it ignores anyone else who might to enter it? Saying "they didn't specify, so no" is not an adequate response. I'd actually rather here "I don't know".

Dimensional Steps make no reference to any spell, but specifies that passengers can ride along, so your argument that Dimensional Slide makes no reference to Dimension Door is invalid. Also, Dimensional Slide doesn't say you CANNOT take other creatures with you, so by your logic that means I CAN do it. See what I'm saying? It's the only teleportation ability I can think of that makes no specification whatsoever.

I digress on this point.

I do note that weapon properties are not just about the cash, but I'll only be part-time melee. That is otherwise the job of the warrior types. This is mostly about my vision of the character, not him being a super optimal warrior. I guess he's gish-lite.

I'm not spending a feat on Scorpion Whip. You can use a Scorpion Whip as a standard Whip that deals lethal damage if you have proficiency in the standard Whip. Unless I'm reading it wrong, all the Scorpion Whip proficiency seems to net you is the ability to use the performance weapon quality. The point of the whip is mostly combat maneuvers from a safe REACH, with the rapier is for up-close and personal stuff. The melee portion of the character is mostly about concept and fun, not being super optimal.


Dimensional Slide simply allows a creature to make an unusual move action. Apply it as such. If a GM is fine with characters riding allies around or pulling them along holding hands with move actions...

If you only have whip proficiency, you can only use a scorpion whip as a whip, meaning you don't threaten and you provoke AoOs (unless you go way down the whip feat chain). I suppose you could still use it as normal with the nonproficiency penalty.

Edit: there's a long, long history of confusion and FAQ about the scorpion whip. As far as I know, this is how it stands.


As far as the Scorpion Whip, that's fine and exactly what I was expecting. It's still better than using the standard whip, as it does lethal damage without requiring any of the Whip Mastery feat chain. So, with the Mysterious Avenger, it's a free weapon proficiency that will allow me to make disarm and trip attempts from a safe reach.

I'm going to have the Prehensile Tail racial trait. This basically acts as a third hand. I feel it's safe to assume it's at least as strong as Mage Hand, being able to hold up to 5 pounds (no fine manipulation, and can't be used to fight with). A rapier weighs 2 lbs, and a scorpion whip weighs 3 lbs. As far as I can recall, I believe you can move an item from one hand to another as a free action. I simply hold the rapier in my tail, while fighting with the whip. If I need to switch to the rapier, I do a little rotation, transferring whip to off-hand, rapier to main hand, then whip to prehensile tail. If I'm correct, this will leave me a free hand with which to cast (somatic) spells. In a pinch, if I took the Quick Draw feat, I could also draw and throw a ranged weapon (say, a Chakram) in a pinch.

Certainly I will never be particularly "good" with any of these weapons, but they all work with the Dex-based combat idea (my high Dex will be a big help in the early game), and the concept will be fun to play. This is a high fantasy, swashbuckling campaign. The world is in our favor. Whip a peg that will cause a precariously perched barrel to come crashing down on a thug. Cut the rope holding a chandelier with a carefully aimed chakram throw. Things like that.

Magic will still be my main gig, and wide array of teleportation talents will be my signature move.

As far as Dimensional Slide, I was just really hoping there was a clarification on this somewhere. If the rules actually stated "no passengers", then that's fine. Based on the verbiage of the flavor text, I think ride-alongs should be allowed. However, I think it should come at an extra cost. Say 1 extra reservoir point for each additional person, doubled for each size category beyond medium. One point per medium, 2 per large, 4 per huge, etc. Teleporting a group of four adventurers (including the arcanist) and their two horses would cost the arcanist 8 reservoir points. Just spit-balling here. Maybe an added cost of transporting more than just themselves, this could cause the arcanist to become fatigued for 1 minute per 1 extra reservoir point spent. This could make the power a good tool for pulling an ally away from imminent peril, but that ally may have to return the favor as the party is fleeing.

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