Wakrob>> It's meant for unattended sentient objects. If you're grappling with someone you'll need to have possession of the object before it will go with you when casting Dimension Door. ; contested is not enough. So you'll either have to steal it, or disarm someone, or perhaps use telekinesis in order to snatch it somehow first.
As to your second question, I always read that as to anyone, making use of the spell's effects. So yes, Caster + passengers. It literally states... after using this spell (it doesn't say, after casting this spell) ; you (you being caster but also passengers, as passengers are users of the spell too) can't take any other actions until your next turn.
This is done to prevent a party in delaying their actions, then having the wizard/sorcerer cast Dimension Door and then having the party members full attacking the ambushed target. No... you have to wait a turn. (Note that there are certain feats that omit this restriction)
Still useful if the party uses other means of stealth. (casting greater invisibility along with a Silence effect for instance)
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No.
There are no pants in Pathfinder.
@Nord>> That's silly, the FAQ part... just hire a bunch of mid-level fighter thug goons, scry on the intended target and then cast haste in the round before and then full-attack ambush the living daylights out of a single target you'd like to assasinate then, who's flat footed, cause, surprise round?
Bad FAQ, abusive as hell, I wouldn't allow it at my table. (And if players would ensist on this FAQ ruling as RAW, I'd have the tactic used against one of the PC's by the BBEG at least once in their adventuring career. What's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander after all)
(And yes, there are defenses against it, but not many, and not everyone has spells like 'Mindblank' at their disposal, which is an 8th level spell)
@Nord>> That's silly, the FAQ part... just hire a bunch of mid-level fighter thug goons, scry on the intended target and then cast haste in the round before and then full-attack ambush the living daylights out of a single target you'd like to assasinate then, who's flat footed, cause, surprise round?
Bad FAQ, abusive as hell
I mean, that's the whole concept of scry an die.
I don't think its that abusive. In a surprise round you can only take a standard or a move (no full attack). Additionally since everyone that came with you would keep their relative positions, its going to be hard to have more than a few people get an attack in unless everyone has reach weapons.
Plus if you're already casting scry, you're probably close to being able to cast teleport, which as far as I am aware, doesn't have the action restriction.
And there are lots of spells that prevent teleportation and dimension door so it wouldn't be too hard to defend against it as a dm.
The main problem I see with this tactic is that if you employ it, you have just given the GM implicit permission to use the same tactic on your PC.
Dimension door says Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Does this mean I can Door away with and object someone is holding (assuming I manage to be touching or grabbing it)?
Or is it just referring to sentient objects like smart swords?
Also, Dimension Door says After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.. Does this just refer to the caster or include passengers?
Thanks
Wakrob
No, just the caster.
Does this mean I can Door away with an object someone is holding (assuming I manage to be touching or grabbing it)?
Only if those pants/the objects are yours or are unattended. Attended items are considered part of the creature until they are removed from their control completely, such as a successful steal maneuver taking an opponents cloak.
Target: you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Other peoples clothes and equipped/worn gear are considered part of 'them' for spell purposes, they are attended. So while pants are an object, touching the pants worn by the orc is simply touching the orc for spell purposes. Unless the orc likes it. Then it is 'willing' and you can take it's pants.
This has now gotten icky and weird ...
Amrel>> That's true... no full attack in surprise round. Suppose that mitigates somewhat.
Amrel>> That's true... no full attack in surprise round. Suppose that mitigates somewhat.
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...Anyone else just flash back to the "Gamers" movie by Dead Gentlemen just now?
"...I want to steal his pants."
So does the answer change if first I use Dirty Trick (entangle) to pants them?
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@Nord>> That's silly, the FAQ part... just hire a bunch of mid-level fighter thug goons, scry on the intended target and then cast haste in the round before and then full-attack ambush the living daylights out of a single target you'd like to assasinate then, who's flat footed, cause, surprise round?
Bad FAQ, abusive as hell, I wouldn't allow it at my table. (And if players would ensist on this FAQ ruling as RAW, I'd have the tactic used against one of the PC's by the BBEG at least once in their adventuring career. What's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander after all)
(And yes, there are defenses against it, but not many, and not everyone has spells like 'Mindblank' at their disposal, which is an 8th level spell)
Not in combat, can't delay actions. You aren't in initiative.
You dim door to the target location,then everyone roll initiative.That determine how fast you adapt to the new situation.
There is no ambush as no one is in combat range and then everyone is in plain sight (barring invisibility or other options). Even with invisibility it is fairly hard to hide the sudden materialization of several persons. At worse the target for the perception check is 20 as no one in the teleporting group can use an action to hide in the starting point and benefit from that at the destination point.
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Amrel>> That's true... no full attack in surprise round. Suppose that mitigates somewhat.*ahem*
Standard + move =/= Full round action.
It don't enable a full attack.
Amrel>> That's true... no full attack in surprise round. Suppose that mitigates somewhat.Only really a little. Buff, Scry, and kill is a time honoured tactic.
It is broken as all hell (it lets the surprising group punch WAY above their normal level) but it is legal and time honoured.
Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.
Not in combat, can't delay actions. You aren't in initiative.
This is a major point of contention. If the GM is going to cheese it that way, fine, slap your buddy. Now you're in combat.
MM
I think you are mis-applying "cheese".
Conventional usage would apply more to the slap your buddy tactic.
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Not in combat, can't delay actions. You aren't in initiative.This is a major point of contention. If the GM is going to cheese it that way, fine, slap your buddy. Now you're in combat.
If you want to play that cheese: slap, your friend, combat begins, the guys in the target area are in combat, they roll initiative and as soon as their turn come, they get to act.
No, it don't work your way. Combat start after you teleport in the target area and everyone roll initiative.
You can get several rounds of preparation before teleporting, but you aren't in initiative and can't delay at will.
Rolling initiative after the teleport can even work very well for the caster, as he can be the guy with the best initiative result and go just after he teleported, but there is no delay outside of combat.
So does the answer change if first I use Dirty Trick (entangle) to pants them?
No. You need to somehow totally remove the pants from their body and possession for them to become and object and not an attended object on the person still.
But it would be funny as hell to see. I can imagine gnome and halfling bards running around 'entangling' orcs by 'pantsing' them in combat.
Why is there no bard spell that does this?
So does the answer change if first I use Dirty Trick (entangle) to pants them?No. You need to somehow totally remove the pants from their body and possession for them to become and object and not an attended object on the person still.
But it would be funny as hell to see. I can imagine gnome and halfling bards running around 'entangling' orcs by 'pantsing' them in combat.
Why is there no bard spell that does this?
Now lets add to the situation. What if I successfully dirty trick (entangle) to pants, then trip (giving easy access to ankles), then steal (now that I can access ankles) and DDoor out? Only problem I see is the steal part (and keeping the enemy down). Yeah, thats a lot of feats, a 4th level spell, and about 3 turns of actions which culminates in nothing but humiliation and pocket change, but the result is me needing to make a court bard now.
Edit: Mandates that the court bard uses perform oratory to give the De-pants-apation proclamation.
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Now lets add to the situation. What if I successfully dirty trick (entangle) to pants, then trip (giving easy access to ankles), then steal (now that I can access ankles) and DDoor out? Only problem I see is the steal part (and keeping the enemy down). Yeah, thats a lot of feats, a 4th level spell, and about 3 turns of actions which culminates in nothing but humiliation and pocket change, but the result is me needing to make a court bard now.
First: change the order, because having them prone will make it easier to pants them, interestingly enough.
More importantly, a party working together can do this in a single round.
First, the trip: the arcane caster likely has grease prepared anyway. If not, the melee guy can use a reach weapon to trip an ordinary foe without needing feat investments to avoid an AoO. But if you have neither of those, you'll need someone to invest in Improved Trip. Choose whichever method you like.
Then, dirty trick and steal: since they're not weapon-based maneuvers, you need to either invest in not provoking (and having two separate characters invested in these, one each, could hurt), or have some other means of increasing your reach. Perhaps there's a Growth-domain druid who can swift-enlarge and then pants (this adds benefits of a size bonus to CMB and STR) and maybe a brawler who can suddenly learn Improved Steal? Yeah, this will take more planning than the trip.
Then you just need one caster left for the DDoor. Make sure the other participants are sufficiently close together that you can make your escape in one round.
pants
Pure evil genious that only really gets going when that spell is Heightened.
The whole concept still takes what some may call permissive rulings by the GM running it. The Steal manuever states
Items that are closely worn (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) cannot be taken with this maneuver.
but personally I can see where being pants-ed may move them out of the 'closely worn section'.
Still getting them off would probably incur the +5 CMD bonus for being 'fastened to a foe' for still being partly worn and/or having to be pulled off over the shoes/boots.
hmm, if you started some pvp/initiative before you teleport in dont you skip the desired surprise round anyway? can you get another surprise round mid combat?
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hmm, if you started some pvp/initiative before you teleport in dont you skip the desired surprise round anyway?
Yes.
can you get another surprise round mid combat?
No.
The funny part is that if you start combat that way the guys in the destination area roll initiative too, and they automagically know that they are in combat for some reason.
They get the cheap version of the Forewarned power of the divination school,
Exactly why you don't initiative outside of combat.
Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.
I'm not sure what in that text makes it not legal? The text does say that teleport is like dimension door, but it doesn't say that it is dimension door, or that the specific penalty of not being able to act after casting applies.
Did I miss something?
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Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.I'm not sure what in that text makes it not legal? The text does say that teleport is like dimension door, but it doesn't say that it is dimension door, or that the specific penalty of not being able to act after casting applies.
Did I miss something?
I think they were just talking about the "scry and fry" tactic not being legal.
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I think they were just talking about the "scry and fry" tactic not being legal.Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.I'm not sure what in that text makes it not legal? The text does say that teleport is like dimension door, but it doesn't say that it is dimension door, or that the specific penalty of not being able to act after casting applies.
Did I miss something?
In reality "scry and fry" is simply more complicated to set it up and a bit less efficient than what a good number of people assumed.
You can do it, but it isn't a guaranteed thing.
I think they were just talking about the "scry and fry" tactic not being legal.Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.I'm not sure what in that text makes it not legal? The text does say that teleport is like dimension door, but it doesn't say that it is dimension door, or that the specific penalty of not being able to act after casting applies.
Did I miss something?
In reality "scry and fry" is simply more complicated to set it up and a bit less efficient than what a good number of people assumed.
You can do it, but it isn't a guaranteed thing.
Oh, so you're getting at the fact that its more difficult to locate the place you actually need to teleport too based on how hard it is to locate it.
Is there anywhere that the spell has been errata'ed to take that into account? I don't personally know of any, and it sucks to think that if I don't buy/read that book I'm wrong in the rules, as all I have to go on is that teleport still lists the viewed once category as "a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying."
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In reality "scry and fry" is simply more complicated to set it up and a bit less efficient than what a good number of people assumed.
You can do it, but it isn't a guaranteed thing.
Yeah, from the cited passage, it seems like it's still very doable, it just has two steps instead of one prior to actually teleporting in. Instead of just scrying to see where they are, you have to also know the location of what you're seeing.
Which is why evil overlords should decorate portions of their lairs to look like well-known locations. ;)
EDIT: @Amrel - The teleport spell has not been altered, to my knowledge.
"I don't WANT them, I just want to see if I can steal them."...Anyone else just flash back to the "Gamers" movie by Dead Gentlemen just now?
"...I want to steal his pants."
Heeeeeeyyyyy this guy over here.
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Reading through all this I get the hilarious mental image of the following:
A powerful and well-armed group of adventures prepares to teleport into the villains lair; the surprise attack of a lifetime. The group successfully warps in; tackles the wizard, rips off his pants and teleports back out. The villain is left in silence and feels mildly violated. The adventurers return to the favored watering hole, and nail the pants to the wall, a successful dare/bet completed.
Am I too amused when I read through these threads?
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I think they were just talking about the "scry and fry" tactic not being legal.Not really legal after Ultimate Intrigue:
Teleport: Teleport is like dimension door, but adds considerably to the range and versatility. However, it is important to note that teleport has several special limitations built into the spell. For one thing, the caster needs to know both the layout of the destination as well as where it is physically located. If the caster has managed to use divinations to see the layout of a secret hideout, it still won't do any good unless she knows where it is. Second, areas of strong physical and magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible. Many GMs forget this important component, which actually gives the villain a good in-game reason to establish a secret volcano lair or build her fortress on a ley line. This advice applies equally well to greater teleport, although the results of a failed teleportation are less dire.I'm not sure what in that text makes it not legal? The text does say that teleport is like dimension door, but it doesn't say that it is dimension door, or that the specific penalty of not being able to act after casting applies.
Did I miss something?
In reality "scry and fry" is simply more complicated to set it up and a bit less efficient than what a good number of people assumed.
You can do it, but it isn't a guaranteed thing.Oh, so you're getting at the fact that its more difficult to locate the place you actually need to teleport too based on how hard it is to locate it.
Is there anywhere that the spell has been errata'ed to take that into account? I don't personally know of any, and it sucks to think that if I don't buy/read that book I'm wrong in the rules, as all I have to go on is that teleport still lists the viewed once category as "a place that you have seen once, possibly...
It always been that way, simply some people was unwilling to accept that the bolded part meant something.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
so Paizo had to come and spell it out.
Yeah, from the cited passage, it seems like it's still very doable, it just has two steps instead of one prior to actually teleporting in. Instead of just scrying to see where they are, you have to also know the location of what you're seeing.Which is why evil overlords should decorate portions of their lairs to look like well-known locations. ;)
EDIT: @Amrel - The teleport spell has not been altered, to my knowledge.
Or the king should have multiple throne rooms/audience chambers/bedrooms in multiple castles in different parts of the country with the same appearance and layout. Possibly with some double in it.
"Yes, the king is in his throne room, but it is the one at Northcastle or the one at Westgate? We can prepare and storm one of the two, but if it is the wrong one we are in trouble.2
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Reading through all this I get the hilarious mental image of the following:
A powerful and well-armed group of adventures prepares to teleport into the villains lair; the surprise attack of a lifetime. The group successfully warps in; tackles the wizard, rips off his pants and teleports back out. The villain is left in silence and feels mildly violated. The adventurers return to the favored watering hole, and nail the pants to the wall, a successful dare/bet completed.
Am I too amused when I read through these threads?
:-)
If we had magic in real life probably someone would do that.
Dangerous pranks in real life aren't so rare.