I am running Reign of Winter for my play group. I have a 4 person party; Summoner, Slayer, Ranger, Gunslinger. Each combat it almost seems that the Summoner could solo each encounter. I have always believed that the summoner is OP without even trying to get break it.
My question is that does Superior Summoning work with the summoner's Summon Monster I (sp) ability? It seems broken that it is a standard action instead of full round, plus he gets one more if it cast multiple....
I am not out to kill the party but the summoner last night in one round killed a Winter Wolf with 1d4+1 Hawks. He rolled 4 so ended up with 5. Standard action to summon, they are next to the wolf, all 5 full attacks with smite.
So does it Superior Summoning work with the Sumon Monster I (sp) or ounces that are actually cast as a spell?
Superior Summoning (and its prerequisite, Augment Summoning) do in fact work with the Summoner's SLA.
Yes, it's as absurdly powerful as you've seen in action. You would be completely justified in asking him to tone his power level down, or raising enemies' to match so they can challenge him.
PFS Legal
Superior Summoning
Source Ultimate Magic pg. 1
You can summon more creatures.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.
Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell ...that conjures more than one creature..., add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
MS 1 does not conjure more than one creature, hence Superior Sumonning does not apply.
Well, the prerequisites involve two other feats, and the original poster said the player summoned 4 hawks with a 1d4+1 roll, so the Summoner is, from context, likely level 5 or 6, and using their power to summon 1d4+1 monsters from the SM1 list, as opposed to 1d3 from SM2's or 1 from SM3's.
So, the caster is using the SM 3 spell, not the SLA that is a SM1 clone?
Yes, of course it works with using the higher level spell to summon more lower level monsters, that is its design.
No, they're using the SLA.
Summon Monster I (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned. He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components. A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends. These summon spells are considered to be part of his spell list for the purposes of spell trigger and spell completion items. In addition, he can expend uses of this ability to fufill the construction requirements of any magic item he creates, so long as he can use this ability to cast the required spell.
The ability is actually called Summon Monster I, even though, as of level 3 and higher, it is no longer functioning as that exact spell.
PFS Legal
Superior Summoning
Source Ultimate Magic pg. 1
You can summon more creatures.Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.
Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell ...that conjures more than one creature..., add one to the total number of creatures summoned.
MS 1 does not conjure more than one creature, hence Superior Sumonning does not apply.
As they level it turns to Summon Monster II and that's where it goes to 1d3.
It actually never says that it then acts like SM 2, it just says you can summon more powerful monsters. You are perhaps reading more into it than intended, since it does essentially trade out your eidolon for a companion more suitable for the moment.
In the absence of official clarification on this, my personal take would be you get one monster from your high list. I would think that if they wanted it to act as SM2, SM3 etc. they should not have named it SM1.
It states the power of the (spell-like) ability increases, and offers a note in parentheses stating the maximum is Summon Monster IX at 17, heavily implying it's the spell your spell-like ability is acting as that is increasing in power.
The unchained summoner further clarifies this, saying it increases by one spell level.
Finally, it says the creatures, plural, last for one minute a level. If you could never have more than one at a time, the plural would be useless, as you specifically can't have more than one of these summon spells in effect at the same time.
It has to say creatures because you have a lot of different options, you don't get just one celestial wolf, ever, that just gets more powerful. (That would be you eidolon). I still say you're reading more into it than is there.
If you think the Summoner is too weak as written, of course go with a more generous interpretation to balance out its many failings.
It actually never says that it then acts like SM 2 (...)
Er, yes ist does? What else can "At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level (...)" mean? And how could the sentence "At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX." be true if the ability can never in fact be used as SM9? Also, take a look at the class table. Serioisly, just look at it (APG p56). Notice that for instance at lvl3 it says "Summon monster II"?
@RelicBlackOUT: Welcome to the tier list, I guess. Yes, Pathfinder is pretty imbalanced, and summoner might be the easiest class to be really powerful with.
(...) or raising enemies' to match so they can challenge him.
Actually, don't do that! If you do that, the summoner will still be good whily everone else will suck. That does not a happy party make!
Talk to the other players. If they really don't mind being outshone by the summoner and are still haviung lots of fun, everything is fine (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). If they dislike being outclassed, ask the Summoner's player to tone it down because he is ruining the fun for the other players. Maybe ask the player to start encounters with haste? I'm playing a summoner right now and mine is the most powerful character in combat, but I always hasten the party so they can still be awesome, even though my eidolon is a monster slying mashine.
Daw is incorrect.
You have summon monster 1 as a SLA.
At lv 3 the power increases by one spell level.
Since we know that at the cap it is summon monster 9, really the only meaning of this is that summon monster 1 goes up to summon monster 2 and so on up till 9.
That means that it behaves just like the spell it is, since that's the rule for SLA.
I do not think the jab about class power was necessary. This is not a discussion about whether one option makes a class stronger or weaker. This is a forum for rules, so what matters is what the rules say.
Let's go over the ability again.
"A summoner can cast [i]Summon Monster I[i] as a spell-like ability" is very straightforward. I don't think any of us are disputing this part.
Further language is "drawing upon this ability", "use this ability only when...", and "if this ability is used again" all put a focus on the use of the spell-like ability, not anything in particular it summons.
"He can cast this spell as a standard action" points to a change in how Summon Monster I normally works. It's normally a one round casting time, and the creature or creatures summoned normally only last for one round / caster level.
Finally, the line in contention, "the power of this ability increases by one spell level". Strictly as written, this only means you're casting Summon Monster I as if it were Heightened, and aren't gaining access to new monster lists. However, it later has a parenthetical aside, "(to a maximum of Summon Monster IX at 17th level)". This implies that as you gain levels, your spell-like ability becomes Summon Monster II, then III, then so on.
At absolutely no point does it say the spell-like ability operates any differently in regards to monsters summoned. And there are no rules that say that if you have Summon Monster as a spell-like ability, you can select only to summon one creature.
Instead we see language that indicates you're casting it as a spell. This leaves only two interpretations:
1) The parenthetical aside doesn't matter, in which case the summoner just gets progressively heightened Summon Monster I spells, and can never draw from a different list; or
2) The parenthetical aside does matter, in which case the summoner is casting higher tiers of the Summon Monster spell, and the text of the spell itself, allowing you to summon "one creature from the 3rd-level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 2nd-level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list" (in the case of SM3) actually matters.
If you want to rule in either case, that is your jurisdiction as a GM. But from a rules perspective, there is no middle ground when it comes to the ability, nor language that says you get the highest list but only one summon from it.
(...) or raising enemies' to match so they can challenge him.Actually, don't do that! If you do that, the summoner will still be good whily everone else will suck. That does not a happy party make!
I agree, it was merely an example of an option. For clarity purposes, by "raising enemies' [strength]", it also includes things like filler mooks to distract the summoner and keep him busy, or enemies that learned enough that they're facing a summoner and have prepared counter-measures against him (such as anti-summon spells such as Protection from Good, or ways to put him to sleep to forcibly desummon the eidolon).
Party members that are particularly strong gain notice, and not all of it is positive.
For clarity purposes, by "raising enemies' [strength]", it also includes things like filler mooks to distract the summoner and keep him busy, or enemies that learned enough that they're facing a summoner and have prepared counter-measures against him (such as anti-summon spells such as Protection from Good, or ways to put him to sleep to forcibly desummon the eidolon).
Party members that are particularly strong gain notice, and not all of it is positive.
Fair enough, as long as it's not overdone (like every single enemy somehow walking around with a permanent Protection from <excactly the alignment the summoner has>). It also only makes sense if there are witnesses (and what self respecting murderer hobo adventurer leaves enemies alive?).
I do not think the jab about class power was necessary.
Was that towards me? If yes, it's just that I've seen more than one case where people try to twist the actual rules in a vain attempt to make something powerful not as strong.
I do not think the jab about class power was necessary.Was that towards me? If yes, it's just that I've seen more than one case where people try to twist the actual rules in a vain attempt to make something powerful not as strong.
It was in regards to "if you think the Summoner is too weak as written" line. Neither reply between my large post and Daw's were visible as I was writing, and it took me a while to write it because I'm on a phone. Sorry for the confusion!
Ah, now I get it. I didn't check time of posting, that would have cleared up a lot.