What if the Pit Fiend wished beforehand that he was immune to Magic Circles?
What if the Pit Fiend wished beforehand that he was immune to Magic Circles?
Doesn't allow spell resistance, so spell immunity wouldn't work, we've had that discussion.
If the Pit Fiend can use his Wish to negate the Dimensional Anchor, he can use his Greater Teleport to escape. Greater Teleport targets the caster himself so he doesn't have to worry about his spell needing to cross the barrier.
|
The spell isn't targeting outside the circle. It targets the caster.Only if they were targeted by a teleport spell that they did not originate. Otherwise, no. As a spell can not target outside the barrier if it is cast by the one trapped. For the same reason they can't cast a fireball outside the barrier.What upgraded version are you referring to?
I'm assuming Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Greater Planar Binding.
Edit: I see it now. But Wish isn't crossing the circle.
You're imagining like a conduit.
An circle with the diagram could still be teleported out of without dimensional anchor.
You select a creature and a destination. That is two targets. It moves the creature from point a to point b. But the effect can not cross the barrier. So, point b must be inside the barrier if the teleportation effect is cast by the one so trapped.
The magic circle does three things.
The creature may not cross the circle.
Their abilities may not cross the circle. So, no effects beyond the circle. Which includes bamfing elsewhere, which is an effect.
(Example... they can not cast a fireball at their feet and have it hit the wizard just outside the barrier. As the effect stops at the barrier.)
They are dimensionally anchored.
Now, if you do defeat the anchor you can have someone else teleport you out if they can target you to do so. But you just would not be able to do so for yourself.
|
|
If the Pit Fiend can use his Wish to negate the Dimensional Anchor, he can use his Greater Teleport to escape. Greater Teleport targets the caster himself so he doesn't have to worry about his spell needing to cross the barrier.
That would include an effect crossing the barrier. All of the effects of their abilities are limited to the space inside the barrier.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, Teleport only needs to target the caster.
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
What if the Pit Fiend wished beforehand that he was immune to Magic Circles?Doesn't allow spell resistance, so spell immunity wouldn't work, we've had that discussion.
And what if he wished that spell resistance did not affect him?
Wish is quite an open-ended spell, after all.
|
|
No, Teleport only needs to target the caster.
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
You are not understanding the difference between "target" and "effect" I think... a target is where/what the spell affects... the effect is what the spell does. The effect of the spell still can not cross the barrier... and being that the effect you are looking for is "move me past the barrier to x"... well, it won't work. As your ability can not cross the barrier.
For the same reason your auras do not extend past the barrier, your arrows can not cross the barrier, if you use some form of wind blowing ability/spell the wind will not be disturbed past the barrier... do you see where I"m going here?
|
|
What if the Pit Fiend wished beforehand that he was immune to Magic Circles?Doesn't allow spell resistance, so spell immunity wouldn't work, we've had that discussion.And what if he wished that spell resistance did not affect him?
Wish is quite an open-ended spell, after all.
Spell resistance doesn't affect creatures. It affects spells, spell-likes and magical effects of all kinds. But magic circle does not allow the creature to make a spell resistance check, thus immunity is meaningless.
Now, wish is a pretty open ended spell. But it is also dangerous to go beyond the suggested options. We did work out a way they can be teleported out by another creature using wish. But so far we haven't come up with a way to get past all three issues caused by the circle.
Wish that the barrier no longer exists. You're not targeting an area outside the barrier. You're targeting the barrier itself.
|
|
Wish that the barrier no longer exists. You're not targeting an area outside the barrier. You're targeting the barrier itself.
You should read the relevant texts, I think. You keep going over not only things that have already been brought up but that the text right out says will not work.
From Magic Circle Against Evil
"The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly"
|
|
Now... a friend has suggest wishing for an evil version of this feat Worldwound Walker That would work, so long as the GM did not pervert the wish too far.
"No, magic circle, I swear... I'm neutral, not evil!"
What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes? Magic Circle, after all, does not prevent them from making an ability check to escape the trap.
|
|
What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes?
Eh, that is a really powerful wish and thus subject to perverting by the GM. But, yes, that would work if the GM doesn't pull a fast one due to the nature of wish. Automatically winning the charisma check wins you a free trip to mortal town.
What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes?Eh, that is a really powerful wish and thus subject to perverting by the GM. But, yes, that would work. Automatically winning the charisma check wins you a free trip to mortal town.
Except in this case, the Pit Fiend is run by the GM, so it's okay.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except in this case, the Pit Fiend is run by the GM, so it's okay.What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes?Eh, that is a really powerful wish and thus subject to perverting by the GM. But, yes, that would work. Automatically winning the charisma check wins you a free trip to mortal town.
If they are a really poor GM... sure. A GM should not favor their NPCs with kinder rules than they will use for the PCs. Except perhaps for story reasons, which should be as limited and invisible as possible to preserve player satisfaction.
But, if they would not pervert a players wish, than yah. At least its fair... even if it really sucks for any binders in the party. heh But it would be great for any player that earned a wish.
Except in this case, the Pit Fiend is run by the GM, so it's okay.What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes?Eh, that is a really powerful wish and thus subject to perverting by the GM. But, yes, that would work. Automatically winning the charisma check wins you a free trip to mortal town.If they are a really poor GM... sure. A GM should not favor their NPCs with kinder rules than they will use for the PCs. Except perhaps for story reasons, which should be as limited and invisible as possible to preserve player satisfaction.
But, if they would not pervert a players wish, than yah. At least its fair... even if it really sucks for any binders in the party. heh But it would be great for any player that earned a wish.
If a binder is stupid enough to summon a devil and think that a dinky magic circle is enough to save them, then they deserve to get eaten by it.
After getting said stupid binder to give the devil their soul, of course. Proper protocols have to be followed after all.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe wishing to succeed on a single roll was explicitly allowed in previous editions though Pathfinder does not explicitly provide for automatically hitting or winning a check with wish or limited wish. At a minimum, it could wish for a +18 bonus to the check by duplicating moment of prescience. Doing so would very likely mean success unless the summoner had taken similar precautions.
I will reiterate that my interpretation of how the teleportation function of Wish works does not care about about the circle or any of it at all and is not limited because the spell isn't crossing the circle. The spell targets only things inside and then you are teleported, you don't "target" a destination.
Also the spell says specifically it ignore local conditions, which include the magic circle, the dimensional anchor, and everything else. Wish is the only way out, but it gets you out.
Basically the question is "Is Wish (and its clause about ignoring local conditions) stronger than Magic Circle?" For me, the answer is clearly yes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just wish that you were a True Neutral Outside for 6 seconds. Ain't no magic circle that can stop Aeons.When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.
(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)
But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.
I believe that a 12th level Occultist with no neutral alignment components (LG, CG, LE, or CE) can create a Binding Circle that will hold Aeons.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just wish that you were a True Neutral Outside for 6 seconds. Ain't no magic circle that can stop Aeons.When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.
(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)
But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.
Actually all the magic circles stop aeons. Magic circle against evil binds non-Good Outsiders, not Evil ones. And therefore magic circle against law binds non-Chaotic ones and so on.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except in this case, the Pit Fiend is run by the GM, so it's okay.What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes?Eh, that is a really powerful wish and thus subject to perverting by the GM. But, yes, that would work. Automatically winning the charisma check wins you a free trip to mortal town.If they are a really poor GM... sure. A GM should not favor their NPCs with kinder rules than they will use for the PCs. Except perhaps for story reasons, which should be as limited and invisible as possible to preserve player satisfaction.
But, if they would not pervert a players wish, than yah. At least its fair... even if it really sucks for any binders in the party. heh But it would be great for any player that earned a wish.
If a binder is stupid enough to summon a devil and think that a dinky magic circle is enough to save them, then they deserve to get eaten by it.
After getting said stupid binder to give the devil their soul, of course. Proper protocols have to be followed after all.
Erm, the whole point of said circle is to function as written. And, the caster no doubt has other protections as well. In fact, they may well have a second casting of binding and a second magic circle waiting, since they know about wish. ^.~ But still.... the whole point of magic circle, this part anyway, is that it will hold so long as the creature fails its save. It isn't dinky at all.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will reiterate that my interpretation of how the teleportation function of Wish works does not care about about the circle or any of it at all and is not limited because the spell isn't crossing the circle. The spell targets only things inside and then you are teleported, you don't "target" a destination.
Also the spell says specifically it ignore local conditions, which include the magic circle, the dimensional anchor, and everything else. Wish is the only way out, but it gets you out.
Basically the question is "Is Wish (and its clause about ignoring local conditions) stronger than Magic Circle?" For me, the answer is clearly yes.
The spell itself can not create an effect outside of the barrier. Period. Go back up and read my explanation of the difference between "target" and "effect". Those are separate concepts. If your spell attempts to affect the universe outside of the diagram... it fails to do so. As it can not cross the barrier. No part of any of the held creatures abilities may cause an effect outside of the barrier. You do realize that if the devil had dimensional anchor on them, that wish would not be able to teleport them? The only reason wish could in this case is due to the dimensional anchor field the magic circle generates, instead of targeting the creature directly. But the magic circle specifically has affected the creature in a way that prevents them from affecting the circle or anything outside the circle. The teleportation part of wish does nothing against that particular feature, as it isn't a "local condition" it is a "condition imposed on the creature and its abilities".
You are FAR stretching a very vague clause.Either way, magic circle isn't all powerful, you can break it one of two ways. So it isn't needed to have an ability that can auto-break it. So there is no need to bend the rules to force one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What if the Pit Fiend wishes that will succeed on the next ability check that it makes? Magic Circle, after all, does not prevent them from making an ability check to escape the trap.
If that were the case the player could have simply use wish to discover the truename of far higher level things by passing the check with a Wish.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is much too serious and erudite. The Pit Fiend just needs to sit down, break out his double-deck of Thoth Tarot cards, and lay out a game of Hellspider Solitaire. When the summoner leans over the fiends shoulder to kibbitz the fiend has him.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will reiterate that my interpretation of how the teleportation function of Wish works does not care about about the circle or any of it at all and is not limited because the spell isn't crossing the circle. The spell targets only things inside and then you are teleported, you don't "target" a destination.
Also the spell says specifically it ignore local conditions, which include the magic circle, the dimensional anchor, and everything else. Wish is the only way out, but it gets you out.
Basically the question is "Is Wish (and its clause about ignoring local conditions) stronger than Magic Circle?" For me, the answer is clearly yes.
The spell itself can not create an effect outside of the barrier. Period. Go back up and read my explanation of the difference between "target" and "effect". Those are separate concepts. If your spell attempts to affect the universe outside of the diagram... it fails to do so. As it can not cross the barrier. No part of any of the held creatures abilities may cause an effect outside of the barrier. You do realize that if the devil had dimensional anchor on them, that wish would not be able to teleport them? The only reason wish could in this case is due to the dimensional anchor field the magic circle generates, instead of targeting the creature directly. But the magic circle specifically has affected the creature in a way that prevents them from affecting the circle or anything outside the circle. The teleportation part of wish does nothing against that particular feature, as it isn't a "local condition" it is a "condition imposed on the creature and its abilities".
You are FAR stretching a very vague clause.Either way, magic circle isn't all powerful, you can break it one of two ways. So it isn't needed to have an ability that can auto-break it. So there is no need to bend the rules to force one.
We can go back and forth about this forever, there is a lot to be desired in terms of clarity of the spells (in my opinion). I think this is a scenario in which you're going to have to deal with table variation.
I can understand how you reach your interpretation, I just don't agree with it.
|
Wish up your own planar binding. Because a called creature is a separate entity, it can break the barrier and let the fiend rampage.
Though, planar binding is a 10 minute cast time, so the original caster might DO something about that. Actually, since Wish specifies itself as being a standard action, does that mean that wishing for a planar binding only takes a standard action?
|
|
If you're going to go into summoning, RAW, just use your own summoning abilities. RAW, the dimensional anchor only works on the creature summoned with the planar binding. While that creatures summons cannot directly or indirectly cross the circle, they are perfectly free to use dimensional travel to leave and kill the summoner since only the original pit fiend is captured by the dimensional anchor. That's probably not RAI but if anyone was going to find a RAW loophole it's going to be a pit fiend.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
To remedy the situation I merely wait to be given the instructions.
If they further the cause of evil or are just fun then that's the end of it.
But if I don't like it, or the meatbag is rude. Then i am an immortal being of immense power that has acquired a particular set of skills acquired over a VERY long time. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like him, his loved ones, his family, anyone he's ever known or had a kind word with.
In regard to the really long Lorewaler-Claxon argument, couldn't the Pit Fiend just Wish itself onto another plane?
Lorewalker admitted that Wish gets through Dimensional Anchor, and moving between planes isn't crossing the circle.
So, just wish yourself to any plane of your choosing, then come back at your leisure to smack your would-be master around.
In regard to the really long Lorewaler-Claxon argument, couldn't the Pit Fiend just Wish itself onto another plane?
Lorewalker admitted that Wish gets through Dimensional Anchor, and moving between planes isn't crossing the circle.
So, just wish yourself to any plane of your choosing, then come back at your leisure to smack your would-be master around.
He thinks that sort of thing is crossing the binding circle and I strongly disagree.
If you just wanted to ignore the caster until they broke the circle, you could wish for a permanent silence on the area.
Edit: Doh, ninja'd just three posts back.
Editx2: Okay.. new thought... fly up?
I wouldn't allow wish to teleport out of the circle (I agree that would be crossing the binding circle), but a pit fiend could wish to auto-pass the Charisma check to breach the circle.
Essentially, playing by the rules and stomping them into the dirt rather than trying to bypass the rules.
Or the pit fiend could wish for a retroactive reroll on its planar binding save, causing it to never to be bound on a pass.
Of course, there's also the matter of the pit fiend just waiting, because, well, it's a freaking pit fiend, and there's a certain level of status that comes with that.
Including an army of devil subordinates who need to impress you if they want a promotion. (And betraying you won't help at all, since their new boss will know they're a bunch of treacherous failures and judge them accordingly.)*
Magic-napping a pit fiend means you just kidnapped one of Hell's 3-star generals, and that can cause you all sorts of head-aches.
* Paizo's deliberately shifted Hell away from the D&D set-up of everyone is constantly backstabbing each other. There's still quite a bit of scheming and oneupmanship, but ultimately, everyone is on the same team and serving the same goal - to remake the universe in Asmodeus's image.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think wish's "regardless of local conditions" is pretty clear which leads me to chuckle at how rules discussions can go down here and where I empathize with the design team. Regardless is a pretty clear statement. That this community apparently requires a paragraph listing specific clauses in a "regardless" type statement is pretty hilarious.
A Pit Fiend doesn't need to use any magic to get out - he uses his most powerful weapon, his mouth.
He makes a deal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
you have your one wish for the year still available. How do you use it to remedy the situation, keeping in mind that all forms of dimensional travel are blocked via the anchor and none of your abilities can cross the circle line?
I wish... myself a little pink bottle. Then I won't tell the caster what it is about, pet it with an evil grin and periodically laugh manically. The arcane caster will become increasingly curious - and finally will make a deadly mistake.
"TRIFLING GNOME - YOUR ARROGANCE WILL BE YOUR UNDOING!"
Wish could bust through that easily, in my opinion. It's wish. Whether or not the pit fiend would even care enough to use it to get out is another story entirely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just wish that you were a True Neutral Outside for 6 seconds. Ain't no magic circle that can stop Aeons.When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.
(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)
But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.
Wrong. ANY magic circle will bind neutral outsiders.
Considering that a "properly protected" circle will include someone with a readied casting of Greater Forbid Action(spell-like abilities) and enough stuff to easilly pierce Pit Fiend's SR and Will save, you say "Well, f+~&."
Pit fiends called in this manner nearly always have their Wish available to use on behalf of their callers, so something must be stopping them from using it to escape.
I would wonder, how he got me into the circle with planar binding, which is limited to 18 HD.
Or did someone already bring that one up? :)
Anyway, if I have the chance to use my own wish, it would be that whatever he commands me to do shall also eventually bring about his downfall.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree, if the caster can get the pit fiend there in the first place there is almost no chance of getting the wish off.
At this level it is likely that caster has private demi-plane and small army ready to deal with you.
If the caster actually wants a service and not simply to end you then the best bet is to go along with and use you charm to corrupt the caster and other along the way.
A decent counter measure would be always have minion nearby ready to wishport you back if you suddenly leave. A genie and one of your devils would work just fine.
Honestly, this is the thing that bothers me more than anything else.
It is assumed that a properly prepared caster will have made so many preparations that escape is impossible. That the pit fiend will be unable to use his Wish because he will be affected by Greater Forbid Action. That he has an army. That he has a mountain of magical protection. But that's not what bothers me.
What bothers me is the assumption that the Planar Binding should ever work in the first place? We're talking about Pitfiends, second to Archdevils. They are intelligent beings, and planar binding is easy to defeat with a few precautions in place in advance. If a pit fiend didn't want to be bound in the first place, they wouldn't be. But we just make the assumption that it works because if we start denying game mechanics like this people throw a hissy fit.
In my opinion, the Pitfiend never gets summoned. Not unless he wants to. So doesn't need to escape.
I agree, if the caster can get the pit fiend there in the first place there is almost no chance of getting the wish off.
At this level it is likely that caster has private demi-plane and small army ready to deal with you.
If the caster actually wants a service and not simply to end you then the best bet is to go along with and use you charm to corrupt the caster and other along the way.
A decent counter measure would be always have minion nearby ready to wishport you back if you suddenly leave. A genie and one of your devils would work just fine.
Honestly, this is the thing that bothers me more than anything else.
It is assumed that a properly prepared caster will have made so many preparations that escape is impossible. That the pit fiend will be unable to use his Wish because he will be affected by Greater Forbid Action. That he has an army. That he has a mountain of magical protection. But that's not what bothers me.
What bothers me is the assumption that the Planar Binding should ever work in the first place? We're talking about Pitfiends, second to Archdevils. They are intelligent beings, and planar binding is easy to defeat with a few precautions in place in advance. If a pit fiend didn't want to be bound in the first place, they wouldn't be. But we just make the assumption that it works because if we start denying game mechanics like this people throw a hissy fit.
In my opinion, the Pitfiend never gets summoned. Not unless he wants to. So doesn't need to escape.
No, it doesn't work because you can't summon a Pit Fiend with planar binding, too many HD. However, if Pit Fiend is already in the circle, well, he is f@$%ed.
If I were in this situation, I'd get on the internet and I'd go to the Paizo forums and...
I've said too much.
By some interpretations, you could cast Create Pit inside the diagram - it's not extradimensional TRAVEL after all. Then just fly under the barrier and you're free.
Or disintegrate the ground at your feet and fall through out of range of the spell. Or spam Fireball SLA to do the equivalent. Or just Power Attack Full Attack the ground.
Persistent Image and Invisibility at-will to make it look like the caster botched the summoning and you fled with a Greater Teleport.
Depending on interpretation, Wish: Antimagic Field would beat this.
Wish for Stone to Flesh on a stone floor, then kill it and cast Create Undead. The Undead will then destroy the barrier.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You cannot use any of your abilities to affect or leave the circle. You cannot summon a creature to mess with the circle because that is using your abilities to do so. Since tons of outsiders have summoning abilities, it would be impossible to planar bind things if that was how it worked.
For pit fiends specifically, they are above the HD limit normally, but there's a magic item IIRC that increases the HD cap by +2, allowing you to bind a pit fiend.
Point is, outside of just being invulnerable to greater planar binding (which is difficult but not impossible to do), there isn't much of anything that you can do to escape the binding circle once you're in it, assuming the proper precautions have been taken. Because any wish, spell, item, or whatever would be restricted by the clause preventing you from disrupting it in any way.
In fact, the cleric spell greater spell immunity will not even prevent the binding because it gives unbeatable spell resistance vs the chosen spell, but planar binding ignores spell resistance both on the calling itself and the barrier if the diagram has been properly made.
If I was a pit fiend that was called, I'd see what the mage wanted. Clearly this is a mage of great and incredible power and resources to have the ability to call me in the first place. Let's make a deal. More likely than not, I'm going to amass countless soul gems over the course of this bargain. I may even request to assist without some form of payment. Or payment in the form of summoned monsters whom I will cast trap the soul on and capture them while they are still summoned (they cannot die during the summoning, but I don't plan to kill them, I plan to enslave a few outsiders).
I am an arch devil, one of the most powerful beings alive, and can live long enough to see the births and deaths of entire planes of existence. I have patience, and I'm not going to be blinded by simple indignation. I'm going to see what's in this for me. I'm going to become this mage's trusted consort. I'm going to humor their requests, and be a "good influence" on them. I'm going to make suggestions, share ideas, and offer insight that will help them to achieve their goals and I'm going to do it voluntarily without them having to order me via magic. Once we're on good terms, and trust is established, I may ask the mage for favors or to help me with my own plans in establishing my presence throughout hell (because a powerful wizard capable of casting greater planar binding would be nearly unheard of in the hells where such beings would be of godlike levels of power (based on base CR + class levels on devils).
This is an arrangement that has much potential. I'm sure we can come to some sort of reasonable agreements. Besides, this isn't personal. It's just business. }:)