Scenario: You're a pit fiend who gets summoned via planar binding into a properly anchored and protected summoning circle


Advice

1 to 50 of 123 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

you have your one wish for the year still available. How do you use it to remedy the situation, keeping in mind that all forms of dimensional travel are blocked via the anchor and none of your abilities can cross the circle line?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It depends.

Is the Wish the 'nerfed' version or the 'anything goes' version?


I'm not clear which nerfed version you mean, but assume RAW.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You live forever, and don't have to eat or sleep. The guy/gal will slip up eventually. Why give up such a great opportunity to have a soul corrupt itself and have a chance to get free on the material plane?

Patients...

Scarab Sages

7 people marked this as a favorite.

The Pit Fiend entry already wrote it best...
" A pit fiend might dutifully serve a mortal master for centuries, but its goal is always the same: to further corrupt the mortal soul, assure its absolute damnation, and when the mortal inevitably dies, claim its soul and begin the process of creating a perfectly corrupt lemure servant. Pit fiends know they are immortal and are intelligent enough to indulge in impossibly disciplined patience. As such, the eldest pit fiends see in their legions the faces of countless fools who once presumed themselves the devils' masters."

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?
Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Planar binding includes instructions here. If the caster can compel you to grant a service, then do the job - It is required to require a finite amount of time. Then do whatever you want. If the caster is unable to compel you, then the magic circle will expire in 24 hours per caster level.

More specific twists rely on the exact favor being asked. Many tasks can be accomplished with that wish, leaving you free willed (with your captor present) in mere moments.


Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

1: Then they would have +1 to a stat and nothing to deal with impossible situations for a year

2: Fiends generally don't work together on a normal day, it's highly unlikely they would use a 1/year ability to help another fiend that can't force them to do so


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lastoth wrote:
you have your one wish for the year still available. How do you use it to remedy the situation, keeping in mind that all forms of dimensional travel are blocked via the anchor and none of your abilities can cross the circle line?

Offer it to the mortal that summoned you as your service. Twist it to further your agenda and ensure their eventual damnation. Duh.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
magic circle wrote:
When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature

"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.

(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)

But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
dragonhunterq wrote:
magic circle wrote:
When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature

"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.

(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)

But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.

Just wish that you were a True Neutral Outside for 6 seconds. Ain't no magic circle that can stop Aeons.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:

The Pit Fiend entry already wrote it best...

" A pit fiend might dutifully serve a mortal master for centuries, but its goal is always the same: to further corrupt the mortal soul, assure its absolute damnation, and when the mortal inevitably dies, claim its soul and begin the process of creating a perfectly corrupt lemure servant. Pit fiends know they are immortal and are intelligent enough to indulge in impossibly disciplined patience. As such, the eldest pit fiends see in their legions the faces of countless fools who once presumed themselves the devils' masters."

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?
Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Who's to say that their Bestiary stats don't already have that figured in?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.

You owe no favors if the "favor" is next year you get the +5. That's why it takes 30 years. +5 to every stat for 5 pit fiends. A minor war would probably be needed to decide order... But it would benefit each pit fiend. And patience and benefits are two things pit fiends understand really well.

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as a favorite.
dragonhunterq wrote:
magic circle wrote:
When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature

"I wish I was a good outsider for 6 seconds" doesn't seem too far outside the realms of wish.

(of course it fails if your summoner saw that coming and overlaid a magic circle against good)

But in reality, as others have pointed out, Pit Fiends won't miss an opportunity to attempt to corrupt any summoner powerful enough to bind them, even temporarily.

A problem with this... the wish will make them actually good. While they are good it is entirely possible for them to decide to off themselves so as to not be evil again. As they were called, it would be a permanent death. So, the real question is... can a pit fiend kill itself in one round?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

The Pit Fiend entry already wrote it best...

" A pit fiend might dutifully serve a mortal master for centuries, but its goal is always the same: to further corrupt the mortal soul, assure its absolute damnation, and when the mortal inevitably dies, claim its soul and begin the process of creating a perfectly corrupt lemure servant. Pit fiends know they are immortal and are intelligent enough to indulge in impossibly disciplined patience. As such, the eldest pit fiends see in their legions the faces of countless fools who once presumed themselves the devils' masters."

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?
Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Who's to say that their Bestiary stats don't already have that figured in?

Because it would need to be listed as it is something that can have stacking conflicts. As it is not listed, it is not figured in thus they can have a +5 inherent bonus added to every stat.


Lorewalker wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

The Pit Fiend entry already wrote it best...

" A pit fiend might dutifully serve a mortal master for centuries, but its goal is always the same: to further corrupt the mortal soul, assure its absolute damnation, and when the mortal inevitably dies, claim its soul and begin the process of creating a perfectly corrupt lemure servant. Pit fiends know they are immortal and are intelligent enough to indulge in impossibly disciplined patience. As such, the eldest pit fiends see in their legions the faces of countless fools who once presumed themselves the devils' masters."

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?
Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Who's to say that their Bestiary stats don't already have that figured in?
Because it would need to be listed as it is something that can have stacking conflicts. As it is not listed, it is not figured in thus they can have a +5 inherent bonus added to every stat.

Why would it need to be listed? Pit Fiends are monster tools for the GM... not a player character race. A GM can do whatever he or she wants to do with a Bestiary listing to make it come out the way it's wanted or leave it as it is. And that includes changing stats, abilities, or even adding class levels.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.

You owe no favors if the "favor" is next year you get the +5. That's why it takes 30 years. +5 to every stat for 5 pit fiends. A minor war would probably be needed to decide order... But it would benefit each pit fiend. And patience and benefits are two things pit fiends understand really well.

You're assuming that a +5 stat boost is worth more than having one of the most powerful lawful outsiders in the planes in debt to you. If you were a Pit Fiend with the patience and cunning to leverage that kind of power, then who cares about +5 extra strength?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.

You owe no favors if the "favor" is next year you get the +5. That's why it takes 30 years. +5 to every stat for 5 pit fiends. A minor war would probably be needed to decide order... But it would benefit each pit fiend. And patience and benefits are two things pit fiends understand really well.
You're assuming that a +5 stat boost is worth more than having one of the most powerful lawful outsiders in the planes in debt to you. If you were a Pit Fiend with the patience and cunning to leverage that kind of power, then who cares about +5 extra strength?

Because just 1 pit fiend can't do it. It takes 5. You'd have to convince 4 other pit fiends to submit to you. Not very likely. But what is likely is convincing 4 other pit fiends that a mutually beneficial act that requires no deference is mutually beneficial. And it would only take 30 years to do it. Which is not even a whole drop in the bucket to them time-wise.

Besides, +5 intelligence is where it is at. That way you can better outwit your foes. Or +5 charisma, to better convince them.

Of course, then again, they could just spend a couple decades corrupting a high level wizard and get them to do it. ^.~

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

The Pit Fiend entry already wrote it best...

" A pit fiend might dutifully serve a mortal master for centuries, but its goal is always the same: to further corrupt the mortal soul, assure its absolute damnation, and when the mortal inevitably dies, claim its soul and begin the process of creating a perfectly corrupt lemure servant. Pit fiends know they are immortal and are intelligent enough to indulge in impossibly disciplined patience. As such, the eldest pit fiends see in their legions the faces of countless fools who once presumed themselves the devils' masters."

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?
Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Who's to say that their Bestiary stats don't already have that figured in?
Because it would need to be listed as it is something that can have stacking conflicts. As it is not listed, it is not figured in thus they can have a +5 inherent bonus added to every stat.
Why would it need to be listed? Pit Fiends are monster tools for the GM... not a player character race. A GM can do whatever he or she wants to do with a Bestiary listing to make it come out the way it's wanted or leave it as it is. And that includes changing stats, abilities, or even adding class levels.

Yes, I think we are all aware that "bestiary beast" means "tool for GM". But you may also notice that bestiary beasts have abilities? That when their abilities are beyond the norm... that those are listed? Yes?

That is precisely why it would be listed. Because that is the format.

The argument "a gm can do what they want" does not negate the fact of the format of bestiary entries. Those entries are facts of life, not some abstract concept that floats around in the ether or "possible things gms can do/use". They may be changed for play... well, duh, of course... but the entry itself is what I was discussing.

So, no, it is not in there for the mere fact that it is, well, not in there. As is evidenced to any who reads the entry.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The goal is to use your wish to get out?

Well, it's a waste of the once per year wish, but you cast antimagic field on yourself and then step out of the summoning circle and all the magical protections the individual cast. You are now out. Proceed to kill the binder while he sleeps.


Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.

You owe no favors if the "favor" is next year you get the +5. That's why it takes 30 years. +5 to every stat for 5 pit fiends. A minor war would probably be needed to decide order... But it would benefit each pit fiend. And patience and benefits are two things pit fiends understand really well.
You're assuming that a +5 stat boost is worth more than having one of the most powerful lawful outsiders in the planes in debt to you. If you were a Pit Fiend with the patience and cunning to leverage that kind of power, then who cares about +5 extra strength?

Because just 1 pit fiend can't do it. It takes 5. You'd have to convince 4 other pit fiends to submit to you. Not very likely. But what is likely is convincing 4 other pit fiends that a mutually beneficial act that requires no deference is mutually beneficial. And it would only take 30 years to do it. Which is not even a whole drop in the bucket to them time-wise.

Besides, +5 intelligence is where it is at. That way you can better outwit your foes. Or +5 charisma, to better convince them.

You're also assuming that Pit Fiends are not paranoid around their peers. Sure, the other guy says he's going to use the wish you give him to increase your intelligence... and then uses it to banish you to a pocket dimension. Or banish a different rival of his to a pocket dimension while a third Pit Fiend takes over your demesne while your attention is focused on this wish deal with the other Pit Fiend.

That's the problem with devils; they're compelled to screw each other over. Always. They are literally made up of essence of backstabbing.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

The goal is to use your wish to get out?

Well, it's a waste of the once per year wish, but you cast antimagic field on yourself and then step out of the summoning circle and all the magical protections the individual cast. You are now out. Proceed to kill the binder while he sleeps.

Interestingly, this won't work.

"A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Also, does anyone else find it weird that pit fiends have three odd ability scores, when they are immortal and can cast wish on themselves?

Or, that pit fiends don't get together for a yearly "someone gets a +5 to a stat" party? It'd only take 30 years to cover the whole bunch.

Well, you could, but then you'd owe another Pit Fiend a favor.

A favor.

Madness.

You owe no favors if the "favor" is next year you get the +5. That's why it takes 30 years. +5 to every stat for 5 pit fiends. A minor war would probably be needed to decide order... But it would benefit each pit fiend. And patience and benefits are two things pit fiends understand really well.
You're assuming that a +5 stat boost is worth more than having one of the most powerful lawful outsiders in the planes in debt to you. If you were a Pit Fiend with the patience and cunning to leverage that kind of power, then who cares about +5 extra strength?

Because just 1 pit fiend can't do it. It takes 5. You'd have to convince 4 other pit fiends to submit to you. Not very likely. But what is likely is convincing 4 other pit fiends that a mutually beneficial act that requires no deference is mutually beneficial. And it would only take 30 years to do it. Which is not even a whole drop in the bucket to them time-wise.

Besides, +5 intelligence is where it is at. That way you can better outwit your foes. Or +5 charisma, to better convince them.

You're also assuming that Pit Fiends are not paranoid around their peers. Sure, the other guy says he's going to use the wish you give him to increase your intelligence... and then uses it to banish you to a pocket dimension. Or banish a different rival of his to a pocket dimension while a third Pit Fiend takes over your demesne while your attention is focused on this wish deal with the other Pit Fiend.

That's the problem with devils;...

That's literally not a problem. There is such a thing as magically binding promises. I made the same assumption I figured anyone else in the conversation would make... that the pit fiend is not stupid and would use any means to ensure they were not double crossed.

It is not even important how they did so, as it could be done in off-screen time where magic doesn't have to explain itself. The point is that such a stat boost would be a very large increase in power. Increases in power are things pit fiends love, next to ripened corrupted souls.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

The goal is to use your wish to get out?

Well, it's a waste of the once per year wish, but you cast antimagic field on yourself and then step out of the summoning circle and all the magical protections the individual cast. You are now out. Proceed to kill the binder while he sleeps.

Interestingly, this won't work.

"A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

It's abilities don't cross the diagram and it's not disturbing the diagram. The magic is negated 10ft all around it. It should function just fine as I understand the rules.

Even if you don't accept that interpretation, spell immunity and make yourself immune to dimensional anchor (as well as magic circle since you can get multiple spells to be immune to). Then teleport out.

And to comment about devils and backstabbing. Devils are evil, they do have a plan to propel themselves above their peers. But these are long cons, they don't just run around backstabbing everyone at any chance, they're not demons. It would be much more useful for a pitfiend to have another pitfiend indebted to them than it would be to just screw them over for no real reason.

Also, it's worth noting that by the rules Pit Fiends have too many HD for even greater planar binding to work on them.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

The goal is to use your wish to get out?

Well, it's a waste of the once per year wish, but you cast antimagic field on yourself and then step out of the summoning circle and all the magical protections the individual cast. You are now out. Proceed to kill the binder while he sleeps.

Interestingly, this won't work.

"A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

It's abilities don't cross the diagram and it's not disturbing the diagram. The magic is negated 10ft all around it. It should function just fine as I understand the rules.

Even if you don't accept that interpretation, spell immunity and make yourself immune to dimensional anchor (as well as magic circle since you can get multiple spells to be immune to). Then teleport out.

The ability will not go outside the diagram and it can not interfere with the diagram. Thus, the diagrams power and effect are not lessened, as the AMF is smaller than the barrier.I think you are under the belief that the diagram and anchoring are cast on the demon, which they are not. Though they do have a chance to resist the effect.

So, you can not teleport out as the diagram has a zone of anchoring which they can not cross with teleportation style abilities(not to mention you are in an AMF, which prevents such antics anyway), and the moment they try to walk through they bang into the barrier the diagram creates as the anti-magic field is smaller than the barrier the diagram creates. As it is not interfered with.

Spell immunity would work, though. But not against the anchoring, as the creature is never affected by it. The spell is, as it attempts to cross the barrier. Which it can not. But, you can make yourself immune to the magic circle. Though, honestly, I'd call this one a debatable question. As it would work similar to a force wall... and can one be immune to a barrier made of force? But, either way, it is likely that tactic would succeed depending on the gm.

As for the HD rule, this is actually possible in game with an ability that increases the HD you can call with the planar binding spells. I believe it was an archetype which did this... but I do not recall which. Either way, the question assumes it is possible for them to be so called... so to abide by the traditional rule of hypothetical questioning, your answer should make the same assumption.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

We could argue a lot about how to adjudicate whether or not antimagic would let him out or whether or not spell immunity works against dimensional anchor, but ultimately Wish can easily replicate something that will get them out of the binding circle.

I don't know if there is an ability that increases the amount of HD you have for planar binding, but my answer did address the general question with a comment that in general it's not possible to use planar binding to get a Pit Fiend.

As a more general comment, I think powerful devils like a Pit Fiend would keep scrolls of other magical items on their person to avoid these sorts of traps rather than using up their Wish, but obviously such things are not explicitly included in the character stat blocks. And more importantly, a Pit Fiend (or other powerful devil) is likely to be curious about any creature capable of calling them via Planar Binding and would likely be more interested in trying to twist the mortal and claim their soul for hell rather than escaping. After all, they are powerful and immortal so rendering some service to mortals can allow them to claim a powerful souls down the road (as an explanation why we don't see more planar bindings failing).


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:
That's literally not a problem. There is such a thing as magically binding promises. I made the same assumption I figured anyone else in the conversation would make... that the pit fiend is not stupid and would use any means to ensure they were not double crossed.

The best way for a Pit Fiend to ensure that he's never double-crossed is to make sure that the other party can never cross you. Any Pit Fiend who assumes that the other Pit Fiend isn't going to sneak some clause into the promise somewhere that gives them a slight advantage in future dealings is not a Pit Fiend that's going to remain in power for long.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Pit Fiends are too paranoid and mistrustful of each other to ever agree to such a deal. They're always going to be assuming that the other party will screw them at the worst possible moment. The Pit Fiend who proposed such a deal would be laughed at because there is obviously something else he's angling for.

Devils never do straight 1-for-1 bargains. That is not their way.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

We could argue a lot about how to adjudicate whether or not antimagic would let him out or whether or not spell immunity works against dimensional anchor, but ultimately Wish can easily replicate something that will get them out of the binding circle.

I don't know if there is an ability that increases the amount of HD you have for planar binding, but my answer did address the general question with a comment that in general it's not possible to use planar binding to get a Pit Fiend.

As a more general comment, I think powerful devils like a Pit Fiend would keep scrolls of other magical items on their person to avoid these sorts of traps rather than using up their Wish, but obviously such things are not explicitly included in the character stat blocks. And more importantly, a Pit Fiend (or other powerful devil) is likely to be curious about any creature capable of calling them via Planar Binding and would likely be more interested in trying to twist the mortal and claim their soul for hell rather than escaping. After all, they are powerful and immortal so rendering some service to mortals can allow them to claim a powerful souls down the road (as an explanation why we don't see more planar bindings failing).

Really, I'm not sure about the "easy" part. Magic circle covers its bases really well by saying that the creature and its abilities has no way to affect the circle, directly or indirectly. Not even a god, if it were somehow stuck there and failed the check somehow and were somehow not immune to low level magics, could nullify the circle once it is stuck. As they literally can not affect the circle in any way.

Anyway, you are definitely correct that the pit fiend would be looking to create a new soldier for himself rather than merely kill the creature and allow its soul to fly off to whatever eternity their actions had earned them up to that point.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.


It's not strictly covered in the rules, but IIRC there are some places that point towards an interpretation that deities simply aren't affected by the restriction placed by mortal magic. They're literally on a different level.

It's easy in the sense that we can both agree that spell immunity to magic circle would allow them to escape if they used their Wish to do so. That's a fairly easy and straightforward method that does not require convoluted methods to do.

Lastoth wrote:
Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.

How does spell perfection do anything?

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
That's literally not a problem. There is such a thing as magically binding promises. I made the same assumption I figured anyone else in the conversation would make... that the pit fiend is not stupid and would use any means to ensure they were not double crossed.

The best way for a Pit Fiend to ensure that he's never double-crossed is to make sure that the other party can never cross you. Any Pit Fiend who assumes that the other Pit Fiend isn't going to sneak some clause into the promise somewhere that gives them a slight advantage in future dealings is not a Pit Fiend that's going to remain in power for long.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Pit Fiends are too paranoid and mistrustful of each other to ever agree to such a deal. They're always going to be assuming that the other party will screw them at the worst possible moment. The Pit Fiend who proposed such a deal would be laughed at because there is obviously something else he's angling for.

Devils never do straight 1-for-1 bargains. That is not their way.

You make them sound like scared children who can't think a step ahead, when they are more like daring salesmen and grand master chess players. You can't reel in a fish if you don't lay the bait.

Anyway, you say they never do a 1-for-1 bargain... but this is not really a 1-for-1 bargain in a way. This is a "you get more powerful, I get more powerful... making us more powerful than the other pit fiends" or "you get more powerful, I get more powerful, making us no longer inferior to the other pit fiends who have made similar deals".

The condition after the deal in conjunction with the rest of the universe is just as important as "did I screw over the other guy in the deal"? No, pit fiends are too patient for that. Maybe he didn't "win" the agreement. But he will against the next being because of this agreement. And against the next celestial being who attacks him who was dumb enough to not be spontaneously generated with the ability to cast wish. ^.^

Not to mention they may well relish the competition of trying to screw each other over in the contract. Of course, it is not likely they will... but it is a possibility.

And, really, I think if a pit fiend suggested this... they wouldn't be laughed at. The others in the deal would be afraid someone else already thought of this and would be more powerful than them because of it. It might become a sort of arms race.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

It's not strictly covered in the rules, but IIRC there are some places that point towards an interpretation that deities simply aren't affected by the restriction placed by mortal magic. They're literally on a different level.

It's easy in the sense that we can both agree that spell immunity to magic circle would allow them to escape if they used their Wish to do so. That's a fairly easy and straightforward method that does not require convoluted methods to do.

Like I said, it is likely. Not a sure deal though. I'd need more time to research that combination and I am just simply not up to the leg work tonight as I usually am.

Then again, if the caster is smart and well planned, they used heighten on their circle. So the diagram would not be able to be immune to their casting of the spell. ^.^

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lastoth wrote:
Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.

Thanks!


Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
That's literally not a problem. There is such a thing as magically binding promises. I made the same assumption I figured anyone else in the conversation would make... that the pit fiend is not stupid and would use any means to ensure they were not double crossed.

The best way for a Pit Fiend to ensure that he's never double-crossed is to make sure that the other party can never cross you. Any Pit Fiend who assumes that the other Pit Fiend isn't going to sneak some clause into the promise somewhere that gives them a slight advantage in future dealings is not a Pit Fiend that's going to remain in power for long.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Pit Fiends are too paranoid and mistrustful of each other to ever agree to such a deal. They're always going to be assuming that the other party will screw them at the worst possible moment. The Pit Fiend who proposed such a deal would be laughed at because there is obviously something else he's angling for.

Devils never do straight 1-for-1 bargains. That is not their way.

You make them sound like scared children who can't think a step ahead, when they are more like daring salesmen and grand master chess players. You can't reel in a fish if you don't lay the bait.

Anyway, you say they never do a 1-for-1 bargain... but this is not really a 1-for-1 bargain in a way. This is a "you get more powerful, I get more powerful... making us more powerful than the other pit fiends" or "you get more powerful, I get more powerful, making us no longer inferior to the other pit fiends who have made similar deals".

The condition after the deal in conjunction with the rest of the universe is just as important as "did I screw over the other guy in the deal"? No, pit fiends are too patient for that. Maybe he didn't "win" the agreement. But he will against the next being because of this agreement. And against the next celestial being who attacks him who was dumb enough to not be spontaneously generated with...

I guess my interpretation of Hell differs from yours. In my conception, the denizens of the Pit are much more paranoid. In yours, they're not.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
Lastoth wrote:
Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.
How does spell perfection do anything?

Spell perfection does this among it's other abilities...

"In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."

Augmented Calling applies a numerical bonus. Which is then doubled.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
That's literally not a problem. There is such a thing as magically binding promises. I made the same assumption I figured anyone else in the conversation would make... that the pit fiend is not stupid and would use any means to ensure they were not double crossed.

The best way for a Pit Fiend to ensure that he's never double-crossed is to make sure that the other party can never cross you. Any Pit Fiend who assumes that the other Pit Fiend isn't going to sneak some clause into the promise somewhere that gives them a slight advantage in future dealings is not a Pit Fiend that's going to remain in power for long.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Pit Fiends are too paranoid and mistrustful of each other to ever agree to such a deal. They're always going to be assuming that the other party will screw them at the worst possible moment. The Pit Fiend who proposed such a deal would be laughed at because there is obviously something else he's angling for.

Devils never do straight 1-for-1 bargains. That is not their way.

You make them sound like scared children who can't think a step ahead, when they are more like daring salesmen and grand master chess players. You can't reel in a fish if you don't lay the bait.

Anyway, you say they never do a 1-for-1 bargain... but this is not really a 1-for-1 bargain in a way. This is a "you get more powerful, I get more powerful... making us more powerful than the other pit fiends" or "you get more powerful, I get more powerful, making us no longer inferior to the other pit fiends who have made similar deals".

The condition after the deal in conjunction with the rest of the universe is just as important as "did I screw over the other guy in the deal"? No, pit fiends are too patient for that. Maybe he didn't "win" the agreement. But he will against the next being because of this agreement. And against the next celestial being who attacks him who was dumb enough to not be

...

Paranoid and frozen by paranoia are two different things. Being intelligent means knowing those out to get you are out to get you... being really intelligent, willful and prideful means that you believe you can best them when they try by being better than them.

What you describe is not really paranoia, but fear. In your scenario they are so afraid of other pit fiends they would not dare to sit at the dealing table with them. Which just seems completely out of character for the beasts as described in their entry.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Lastoth wrote:
Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.
How does spell perfection do anything?

Spell perfection does this among it's other abilities...

"In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."

Augmented Calling applies a numerical bonus. Which is then doubled.

I was totally too caught up in thinking about the metamagic part to think about the previously mentioned feat, haha.

The crappy part is this is only available to arcane casters though (and clerics with specific domains) because most devine casters don't have access to planar binding spell, only planar ally.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Lastoth wrote:
Augmented calling feat allows you to call 20hd with greater binding, spell perfection gets you 22, and darkfire adept could add one to that.
How does spell perfection do anything?

Spell perfection does this among it's other abilities...

"In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."

Augmented Calling applies a numerical bonus. Which is then doubled.

I was totally too caught up in thinking about the metamagic part to think about the previously mentioned feat, haha.

The crappy part is this is only available to arcane casters though (or maybe a very specific version of divine casters) because most devine casters don't have access to planar binding spell, only planar ally.

Heh That will happen. But I'm not sure what limitation you are talking about. Augmented Calling works on planar ally too and spell perfection is not arcane only.

From Augmented Calling
"Prerequisite(s): Spell Focus (conjuration); ability to cast lesser planar ally, lesser planar binding, or a higher-level version of these spells."

Oh... and I did eventually do the leg work.... spell immunity will not work. As the diagram does not allow a spell resistance check.

From Spell Immunity
"The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn't protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn't apply."


Lorewalker wrote:

Paranoid and frozen by paranoia are two different things. Being intelligent means knowing those out to get you are out to get you... being really intelligent, willful and prideful means that you believe you can best them when they try by being better than them.

What you describe is not really paranoia, but fear. In your scenario they are so afraid of other pit fiends they would not dare to sit at the dealing table with them. Which just seems completely out of character for the beasts as described in their entry.

A Pit Fiend who does not fear other Pit Fiends is a dead Pit Fiend. I'd expect that most of them who get this deal proposed to them will turn it down because they smell a rat and the ones that do take it will be quickly screwed over by the other party.

In short,even if there were Pit Fiends who took the deal, there will only be a few Pit Fiends who would be enhanced with this method because they would use said enhanced Intelligence and Charisma to ensure that no other Pit Fiends make this kind of deal after they make sure that the one who enhanced them is killed.

Actually, I could also see this kind of dealing expressly forbidden by Archdevils who rightly don't want their subordinates to get so powerful that they can't control them. There's probably several lawbooks in Hell devoted to just what kind of wishes that Pit Fiends are allowed to grant.


Hmmmmm....
Wait I've been overthinking this.

It's Wish. You literally Wish yourself out.

Quote:
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

The spell Wish has it's abilities written so vaguely, but this could be argued that regardless of the local conditions (of dimensional anchor) you teleport away.

Honestly, spell casting is my weakest point in the rules because I rarely play spell casters and truly hate 7-9th level spells. If they removed full progression casters from the game I wouldn't be at all disappointed.

I do think if specific outsiders wanted to protect themselves against being called though they could simply use dimensional anchor/lock to stop the magic from working in the first place.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:

Paranoid and frozen by paranoia are two different things. Being intelligent means knowing those out to get you are out to get you... being really intelligent, willful and prideful means that you believe you can best them when they try by being better than them.

What you describe is not really paranoia, but fear. In your scenario they are so afraid of other pit fiends they would not dare to sit at the dealing table with them. Which just seems completely out of character for the beasts as described in their entry.

A Pit Fiend who does not fear other Pit Fiends is a dead Pit Fiend. I'd expect that most of them who get this deal proposed to them will turn it down because they smell a rat and the ones that do take it will be quickly screwed over by the other party.

In short,even if there were Pit Fiends who took the deal, there will only be a few Pit Fiends who would be enhanced with this method because they would use said enhanced Intelligence and Charisma to ensure that no other Pit Fiends make this kind of deal after they make sure that the one who enhanced them is killed.

Actually, I could also see this kind of dealing expressly forbidden by Archdevils who rightly don't want their subordinates to get so powerful that they can't control them. There's probably several lawbooks in Hell devoted to just what kind of wishes that Pit Fiends are allowed to grant.

I mean... if your version of pit fiends is that they are so afraid of each other that they will not deal with each other... okay. But I really think that is counter to their description.

Having healthy respect for a deadly snake is completely different than refusing to be in the same room as that same snake no matter the precautions.
But, really, to each there own. That's part of the game too.

But, it is also possible for there to be limitations. I know some races with the wish ability can not use it to their own benefit, but must use it in a bargain with another being. Which really would make sense for pit fiends... then again that would make it more likely for them to deal with each to get the benefit they can't give to themselves. heh

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:

Hmmmmm....

Wait I've been overthinking this.

It's Wish. You literally Wish yourself out.

Quote:
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

The spell Wish has it's abilities written so vaguely, but this could be argued that regardless of the local conditions (of dimensional anchor) you teleport away.

Honestly, spell casting is my weakest point in the rules because I rarely play spell casters and truly hate 7-9th level spells. If they removed full progression casters from the game I wouldn't be at all disappointed.

Hmm, still does not work. The spell can not extend past the diagram. Thus, it can not target outside of the barrier. They could teleport inside of the barrier to another portion inside the barrier though despite the anchor effect.

You are right that they can anchor themselves... there is a ring that does that even. But then again... then they can't best the one who tried to summon them. Which is something pit fiends enjoy doing, as per their description.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

They way Wish is written nothing stops it. I agree it's too vaguely and too powerfully written, but it says regardless of local conditions. Basically nothing there matters. Not the binding circle, not the dimensional anchor.

Besides, we know that teleport works just fine from inside the circle if you don't cast dimensional anchor (it specifically mentions they'll teleport away if you don't do it), so the question is really does Wish Teleport beat Dimensional Anchor. I think the answer is yes.

Admittedly, Wish does appear to be the only method that works.

Which actually kind of sucks. I mean I realize the game is written from the perspective on PCs and not NPCs, but binding magic is bit too powerful.

Magic Circle Against Evil wrote:
A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has Spell Resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its Spell Resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through such means. You can prevent the creature's extra-dimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

So clearly you need both dimensional anchor and magic circle against evil, but Wish just says "Screw that".

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:

They way Wish is written nothing stops it. I agree it's too vaguely and too powerfully written, but it says regardless of local conditions. Basically nothing there matters. Not the binding circle, not the dimensional anchor.

Besides, we know that teleport works just fine from inside the circle if you don't cast dimensional anchor, so the question is really does Wish Teleport beat Dimensional Anchor. I think the answer is yes.

No, it is literally stopped by the mere fact that it is an ability of the pit fiend... which can not extend past the barrier.

So, it can deny the anchor effect. But it can not target outside the barrier. This is certain.

You aren't trying to be dimensional anchor... wish does beat that. But you still aren't defeating the circle itself, which prevents your abilities from extending past the barrier.

The upgraded circle does more than add dimensional anchor. It prevents any of your attacks or abilities from extending past the barrier.


Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

They way Wish is written nothing stops it. I agree it's too vaguely and too powerfully written, but it says regardless of local conditions. Basically nothing there matters. Not the binding circle, not the dimensional anchor.

Besides, we know that teleport works just fine from inside the circle if you don't cast dimensional anchor, so the question is really does Wish Teleport beat Dimensional Anchor. I think the answer is yes.

No, it is literally stopped by the mere fact that it is an ability of the pit fiend... which can not extend past the barrier.

So, it can deny the anchor effect. But it can not target outside the barrier. This is certain.

You aren't trying to be dimensional anchor... wish does beat that. But you still aren't defeating the circle itself, which prevents your abilities from extending past the barrier.

No dude, the spell literally says they'll teleport out without dimensional anchor

Lorewalker wrote:
The upgraded circle does more than add dimensional anchor. It prevents any of your attacks or abilities from extending past the barrier.

Also, this specifically is also wrong.

Magic Circle Against Evil wrote:
The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

It can clearly make ranged attacks through the circle, but it can't target the circle itself.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

They way Wish is written nothing stops it. I agree it's too vaguely and too powerfully written, but it says regardless of local conditions. Basically nothing there matters. Not the binding circle, not the dimensional anchor.

Besides, we know that teleport works just fine from inside the circle if you don't cast dimensional anchor, so the question is really does Wish Teleport beat Dimensional Anchor. I think the answer is yes.

No, it is literally stopped by the mere fact that it is an ability of the pit fiend... which can not extend past the barrier.

So, it can deny the anchor effect. But it can not target outside the barrier. This is certain.

You aren't trying to be dimensional anchor... wish does beat that. But you still aren't defeating the circle itself, which prevents your abilities from extending past the barrier.

No dude, the spell literally says they'll teleport out without dimensional anchor.

That is the unupgraded version which does not limit abilities and attacks from crossing the barrier. The upgraded version includes such a limitation as well as the anchor effect. Which means no one else can teleport them out and they can not affect anything outside the barrier in any way.

But, really, binding is not THAT powerful. There are two ways they can defeat even the upgraded version... either the initial will save or a charisma check vs the caster.


What upgraded version are you referring to?

I'm assuming Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Greater Planar Binding.

Edit: I see it now. But Wish isn't crossing the circle.

You're imagining like a conduit, but that's not the case. You cast the spell on yourself inside the circle (which doesn't cross the circle) and then you're not their. The ability isn't "crossing" the circle.

A circle with the diagram could still be teleported out of without dimensional anchor.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

They way Wish is written nothing stops it. I agree it's too vaguely and too powerfully written, but it says regardless of local conditions. Basically nothing there matters. Not the binding circle, not the dimensional anchor.

Besides, we know that teleport works just fine from inside the circle if you don't cast dimensional anchor, so the question is really does Wish Teleport beat Dimensional Anchor. I think the answer is yes.

No, it is literally stopped by the mere fact that it is an ability of the pit fiend... which can not extend past the barrier.

So, it can deny the anchor effect. But it can not target outside the barrier. This is certain.

You aren't trying to be dimensional anchor... wish does beat that. But you still aren't defeating the circle itself, which prevents your abilities from extending past the barrier.

No dude, the spell literally says they'll teleport out without dimensional anchor

Lorewalker wrote:
The upgraded circle does more than add dimensional anchor. It prevents any of your attacks or abilities from extending past the barrier.

Also, this specifically is also wrong.

Magic Circle Against Evil wrote:
The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.
It can clearly make ranged attacks through the circle, but it can't target the circle itself.

I know you said you are bad at magic... so I'll just say you need to read the second half of the spell. You are missing the important parts.

The base magic circle sucks... even the spell says so. But you can draw a "diagram" which makes the spell MUCH better.

Second half of the spll:
"You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.

A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its Spell Resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram - even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:

What upgraded version are you referring to?

I'm assuming Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Greater Planar Binding.

Edit: I see it now. But Wish isn't crossing the circle.

You're imagining like a conduit.

An circle with the diagram could still be teleported out of without dimensional anchor.

Only if they were targeted by a teleport spell that they did not originate. Otherwise, no. As a spell can not target outside the barrier if it is cast by the one trapped. For the same reason they can't cast a fireball outside the barrier.

None of their abilities can cross the barrier.


Lorewalker wrote:
Claxon wrote:

What upgraded version are you referring to?

I'm assuming Magic Circle Against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Greater Planar Binding.

Edit: I see it now. But Wish isn't crossing the circle.

You're imagining like a conduit.

An circle with the diagram could still be teleported out of without dimensional anchor.

Only if they were targeted by a teleport spell that they did not originate. Otherwise, no. As a spell can not target outside the barrier if it is cast by the one trapped. For the same reason they can't cast a fireball outside the barrier.

The spell isn't targeting outside the circle. It targets the caster.

This specific point could probably be debated for a while, and I have a feeling neither of us is going to relent. It's also midnight, so I'm going to respectfully disagree about some finer points here and bid you goodnight.

1 to 50 of 123 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Scenario: You're a pit fiend who gets summoned via planar binding into a properly anchored and protected summoning circle All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.