|Ahpook The Destroyer|
Item concept: Duelist's Holster - A gun holster that has two abilities. First, it can store up to 12 bullets or alchemical cartridges, stored in the order they are put in. Second, every time a gun is holstered, it reloads the gun for you instantly. The process of holstering a gun works just like normal and is not improved by the item itself.
So to sum up abilities: Stores 12 shots for you, and loads them for free in the order they were stored when you holster your gun.
Breaking it down: At first I thought about having the holster have a wee extra dimensional space for the bullets, but then I decided that could cause problems down the road, so instead of Secret Chest as the prime spell for that, I went with Shrink Item, similar to a glove of storing. Since I cant think of a spell that loads your gun for you, I went with some non spellcasting requirements for that...the creator has to be proficient with firearms, and must have the gunsmithing class feature.
So to sum up requirements: The creator must be able to cast Shrink Item, be proficient in firearms, and have the Gunsmithing class feature.
Pricing: Looking at the chart, this would be a continuous or use activated item. Also, like a bag of holding, it doesnt take up a body slot. The pricing equation runs thusly...
3(spell level) x 5(caster level) x 2000gp = 30,000gp / 2(Shrink Item has a duration measured in days, so divide cost in half) = 15,000 x 2(item does not take up a body slot) = 30,000gp final cost.
Now, 30 grand sounds like a lot of money for what it does. Using the exact same equation though, a Bag of Holding type I would cost 50,000gp! Obviously it doesnt at only 2,500gp.
Using that as an example, I am inclined to set the cost for this item at about 5,000gp. It uses a lower level spell, but the item is useful in combat situations. Also it has a couple of other requirements to build it.
This is the first time I have tried this tho, and I could be missing some things. Can you folks go over my math and reasonings and give me some feedback? I would appreciate it muchly! Thanks!
|James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies|
If you are pricing a new item and you went to the chart, you skipped all the pricing rules.
Look for a similar item or item of similar power, use that price.
For example, in 3.5 and I think there is also a similar item in PF, a quiver that generates mundane normal arrows was 28,000 gp. More expensive for fancier ones like cold iron. This works similar, so it should cost 28,000 gp or more.
Except the item as described does not generate ammunition, merely store and load it.
The most similar item to the concept? Beneficial Bandolier.
1000gp, but occupies the belt slot. This holster doesn't take a slot, but since you have to holster it in order to reload, and it doesn't have as much of a storage capacity, it's also not as strong.
I think 1250-1500 is fair.
|Bob Bob Bob|
Alright, so as the other person said, first you need to look at similar levels of power. The closest I can find is Beneficial Bandolier, which lets you load a single bullet as a swift action (but it's any bullet in the bandolier).
Unfortunately, this means I absolutely can't price out your magic item, because how much it's worth depends wildly on a number of factors. Can you sheath a weapon as a free action (through houserules or Gun Twirling)? Are you using a pepperbox or revolver or other firearm that holds more than one bullet?
If the answer to both of those is "no", then your item is worth twice as much as a beneficial bandolier (double cost for slotless). It would basically just let you reload as a move (sheathing) instead of a swift. That being said, it should probably be slotted (otherwise where the @#$% are the bullets, strapped to the outside of the holster?).
If the answer to either of those is "yes", then your item is worth an as yet completely undetermined number. Probably the price of Rapid Reload, possibly the price of Rapid Reload+Alchemical Cartridges+Reliable (to negate the misfire increase), possibly invaluable (if you're not a Musket Master). The minimum price for a slotted feat item is 5k, slotless it'd be 10k. That's probably the best starting point. Free Alchemical Cartridges is basically nil (probably call it 1k just for simplicity, around the cost of 100 Alchemical Cartridges). Reliable on the other hand is much more problematic, as a +1 ability it's worth 6k at the lowest and 38k at the highest. I'd probably compromise somewhere in the middle and say 20k. But that's two completely different prices (10k and 31k), because its usefulness varies wildly depending on who uses it. And that's not including the double-barreled musket.
This is way easier if you just want to generate bullets, not load them. Pistol of the Infinite Sky. Shadowshooting. Reloading Hands. Or, you know, just taking Rapid Reload and using Alchemical Cartridges yourself instead of a needlessly complicated magic item.
So, in short, at least 10k. Easily up to 49k. And yes, that's how much it's worth, since you have to price it based on whoever benefits most.
|j b 200|
It also depends on the type of weapon. This can be significantly better than the Beneficial Bandolier. The BB only loads one "ammo" at a time, but this item can load up to 12 at a time. With a simple pistol, I change a standard action into a move. With a pepper box I turn 8 standard actions into a move, much more valuable. I assume the reason he wants 12 is because the gun he's using has a capacity of 12. Following the rule of squares, (+2 is 4x better than a +1, a +3 is 9x better, etc.) this item could be reasonably priced at 144,000gp or 12x12x1000.
Really this item is probably not something your GM should allow. Just take the woefully underpriced Beneficial Bandolier and call it a win.
|Bob Bob Bob|
Oh right, completely forgot. If you're dual-wielding (or otherwise can't reload normally) then I guess it's even more expensive. I can't even begin to price it, as the only easy ways I know involve specific races or level dipping, which you really can't put a price on. Or Gun Twirling, but with two feat prereqs it costs way more than 5k. Possibly exponentially more. 45k? 90k for slotless. Maybe just the price of a Glove of Storing? So 10k, 20k slotless. So something like 50k for the "user who benefits the most", someone dual-wielding pepperboxes with Quick Draw who can sheath for free. For a free action up to full reload of your gun... that looks about right.
|James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies|
Yeah, the ability to freely reload more than one a round is going to be expensive because for the right character it enables them to make full attacks they wouldn't otherwise be able to make (without the right feats/abilities).
I'm going to say this can't be effectively evaluated for cost because to the right character it's value is infinitely high. That character is one with the Gun Twirling feat, which will allow you to draw your weapon using Quick Draw as a free action, fire, holster as a free action, quick draw as a free action, and continue firing until you're out of attacks. That's far too powerful for any item to do.
Or, if I allowed it as a GM I would impose a limit of 3 free actions per round on the character to prevent this from being abused.
Ultimately this item is too powerful to the right character to give a cost to.
|ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32|
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The absolute best character to make use of this has two pistols that hold six shots each and is sheathing them and drawing them as free actions, so he can fully reload both pistols in one round as a free action. What action type is it to load ammo into the holster? It's not specified.
That makes this a toy for very high level play; I think it's appropriate at level 15 or so. The ideal price is the one where the player thinks it might not be worth it. I'd say at least 50k, possibly more. This item is very abusable.
|Ahpook The Destroyer|
Hey everyone! Thanks for the great feedback so far. There seems to be some confusion about my intentions for the item, I will clear those up. Also, I will explain some of my design philosophy and balancing factors I considered, so you can see where i was coming from. Also, you folks pointed out some good issues I hadnt thought of.
First, to clarify, the holster can hold 12 bullets or cartridges. After that, they need to be reloaded. When being loaded into the gun, they get loaded in the same order they were stored, so no picking the perfect one for your situation without going through the others first. It doesnt work like a haversack. I hadnt considered that you might want to try to reload them during combat (duh) but my thinking is that it isnt any easier or harder then loading them into the gun.
Next, the holsters dont make it any easier to holster or draw the guns in them. If you want to try that gun twirling technique then you are going to have to burn the feats and have the requirements like everyone else. If you do, then great! You get a nice benefit from doing so with this item.
As for double barreled, or modern weapons like revolvers that can hold six shots at a time, yes they get all six shots reloaded, but that takes half of what you got in there each time, also, they are loaded into the gun in the same order as they were loaded into the holster (see above). If you are already using modern weapons in your game, this isnt such a big deal. Again, its why you might buy this item.
As far as I know, there is no gun with a capacity over 6 in the game.
Also, the holster doesnt affect the gun in any other way ie you can still misfire, get wet, etc. The ammo isnt summoned or enchanted or improved, unless it already was...at most its teleported into the weapon.
I wasnt aware of the reloading hands spell...I am considering adding it to the requirements. The reason I am hesitant is that the spell's level is where it is because it allows the ammo to overcome /magic damage reduction, which the holster doesnt do.
Also, I dont think the price should be anywhere near the Pistol of infinite sky since it doesnt just automatically refill your gun for you...you have to expend significant feat resources to be able to achieve something similar with multiple free actions.
For these reasons I am still leaning in the 5,000gp to 7,000gp range for them.
What are your thoughts folks? Do my reasons make more sense now?
Thanks in advance!
|Bob Bob Bob|
I don't think anyone is confused. You want a holster that gives free reloads on sheathing the weapon. This holster is far more powerful in certain character's hands than it is in others. It has to be priced that way. As I already said, if sheathing is a move action and the gun only holds one bullet, a Beneficial Bandolier is already better (higher capacity, swift action instead of a move, pick your bullet). But I'm taking a wild guess here that you want free action reloads of multiple bullets at once. That's worth way more. At a bare minimum Rapid Reload (5k slotted, 10k slotless, probably even more for working on all guns and not just one type). Most likely Rapid Reload+Alchemical Cartridges+Reliable, as the gun still has the normal misfire chance but Alchemical Cartridges raise the misfire chance, so you need Reliable to cancel that out.
12 bullets and not choosing the bullets doesn't really matter when you can just reload the gun normally. Presumably you just put regular bullets in the holster and only use it when you want to shoot a bunch of those. Also, nothing is stopping you from buying a Beneficial Bandolier and using that to load the "perfect bullet" when you need it.
No one is saying the holster helps with drawing or sheathing the weapon. They're saying that if you have the feats for drawing and sheathing the weapon faster, the holster is worth way more. The difference between move action reloads and free action reloads is huge.
The number of bullets usefulness follows a logarithmic curve (starts fast, slows down to nonexistent later). The difference between 100 and 200 is almost nonexistent. You picked the number 12. That says to me that that's the lowest you thought you could get away with per battle. Even at 4 attacks/round that 12 bullets will last you 3 rounds (not including what's already in the gun). That seems like enough for one battle.
The M1895 has a capacity of 7, so there's one gun with more than 6 capacity.
The Pistol of the Infinite Sky is honestly probably underpriced. Remember, it's also a +5 pistol. Infinite ammo is therefore 22k (or so) or a +1 property (approximately). That same property for bows (and specifically not guns) is +2.
You've given us your reasoning, you still haven't told us about who you plan on using this item. It clearly isn't theoretical, there's a character attached to this somewhere. If that character is using pepperboxes... well, then you're just trying to game the system. It's best to be honest about these things.
If you want to actually balance it out...
Craft reqs: Reloading hands or an unseen servant spell, and whatever other reqs the Bandolier has.
If it reloads more than one shot in a round, then it should be at least 7.5k.
If it only reloads 1 shot in a round, then I would put it at 3000 for not using a swift action and also not taking your belt slot like the Bandolier.