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Then does Rock Throwing Ex incur the nonproficency penalty to thrown rocks, as normal for improvised weapons? Nothing in the ability indicates I ignore this. This does mean the stone oracle is throwing rocks at -3 to attack. It also prevents weapon focus (throw anything is still fine).
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Then does Rock Throwing Ex incur the nonproficency penalty to thrown rocks, as normal for improvised weapons? Nothing in the ability indicates I ignore this. This does mean the stone oracle is throwing rocks at -3 to attack. It also prevents weapon focus (throw anything is still fine).
It is safer to assume that you do not ignore it. I will be speaking from this position.
Rock Throwing (Ex): You are an accomplished rock thrower and have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. You can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than your own size. The range increment for a rock is 20 feet, and you can hurl it up to 5 range increments. Damage for a hurled rock is 2d4 for a Medium creature or 2d3 for a Small creature, plus 1-1/2 your Strength bonus.
A rock is an improvised weapon because it is not on the weapon table, so yes you would take a -4 when throwing them. At level one would be Bab+Dex+1(racial)-4(improvised weapon)= -3+bab+dex.
The benefit to this ability comes in the 1.5x str mod. That is very nice.
Throw Anything (Combat)
You are used to throwing things you have on hand.Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
With Throw anything it becomes Bab+dex+1(racial)= 1+Bab+dex
Also, in PFS, how is cost and weight determined for the rocks?
As for pricing of rocks, you should discuss that with your table GMs. At MY tables you'd probably just get to collect them for free or find bricks and things as you go.
As far as the weight goes. Rocks are heavy. One or two hand sized rocks no problem, but if you're talking about a rock the size of a small child the weight is fairly significant. (I've walked down a mountain carrying a 180lb piece of stone a little larger then a basketball and it was not fun. Geology is fun.)
As far as the weight goes. Rocks are heavy. One or two hand sized rocks no problem, but if you're talking about a rock the size of a small child the weight is fairly significant. (I've walked down a mountain carrying a 180lb piece of stone a little larger then a basketball and it was not fun. Geology is fun.)
Since you brought it up, esp. referencing geology, the weight of the stone could be intensely variable depending on what type of rock it is sedimentary, igneous, or metamorphic, right?
Totally off-topic, but if you're doing a geo-kineticist or a telekineticist, the thing you fling is just 'flavor text', right?
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So when you run giants, do you give them a -4 non-proficiency penalty for their rock-throwing ability?
The Monster rock throwing ability is almost identical to the Oracle mystery.
Rock Throwing (Ex) This creature is an accomplished rock thrower and has a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. A creature can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than its size; for example, a Large hill giant can hurl Small rocks. A "rock" is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5. The creature can hurl the rock up to five range increments. The size of the range increment varies with the creature. Damage from a thrown rock is generally twice the creature's base slam damage plus 1-1/2 its Strength bonus.
Format: rock throwing (120 ft.); Location: Special Attacks (damage is listed in Ranged attack).
A Hill Giant Has an attack bonus with the rock of +6. This is calculated from BAB +7 +1 from the Rock Thowing special -1 dex -1 size.
There is no improvised weapon penalty there, and the giant doesn't have Throw Anything.
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So when you run giants, do you give them a -4 non-proficiency penalty for their rock-throwing ability?
Monsters are considered proficient in the armor and weapons they are listed with in their Bestiary entries.
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They have the Rock throwing special though, which explicitly states "This creature is an accomplished rock thrower and has a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks." Just as the oracle mystery states "You are an accomplished rock thrower and has a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks."
The ability was clearly modeled off the universal monster ability, and should grant proficiency, because how else can you be "an accomplished rock thrower"?
The abilities are written the same, yes. But monsters get those proficiencies for free as an additional rule; PCs don't.
This is the side of RAW many people don't like. If it doesn't grant proficiency explicitly, then it doesn't. The bestiaries have a second rule that *does* grant proficiency, so it's not an equivalent situation.
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Alright, this proficiency issue sounds like a FAQ candidate with relevance to the system as a whole, not just PFS.
Question: Are the rocks thrown, as described in the Stone Mystery Oracle's "Rock Throwing (Ex)" revelation considered improvised weapons for purposes of penalties to attack rolls and interaction with the "Throw Anything" feat?
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The abilities are written the same, yes. But monsters get those proficiencies for free as an additional rule; PCs don't.
This is the side of RAW many people don't like. If it doesn't grant proficiency explicitly, then it doesn't. The bestiaries have a second rule that *does* grant proficiency, so it's not an equivalent situation.
You do realize you're just being extremely pedantic, right? I mean, he gets an ability that literally says "you're super awesome at throwing rocks" and you're coming along and saying "except it doesn't explicitly use the word proficient so it sucks to be you."
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Class abilities are supposed to work. There is no reason to make this a craptastic ability by adding in penalties that are not part of the ability.
I'd assume proficiency in throwing a rock.
In a home game I'd also make that allowance.
It doesn't state it give proficiency so until we get a FAQ the safe thing to do is to assume it doesn't grant proficiency.
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You do realize you're just being extremely pedantic, right? I mean, he gets an ability that literally says "you're super awesome at throwing rocks" and you're coming along and saying "except it doesn't explicitly use the word proficient so it sucks to be you."
Except that's not what the ability says and it's not what I'm saying - but you tend to disagree with anything I say because it was me who said it.
I agree that maybe the ability *should* grant proficiency (although it doesn't as written). My response was dealing with the comparison to giants and rock-throwing, which isn't the same thing because of the extra language for bestiary entries.
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You do realize you're just being extremely pedantic, right? I mean, he gets an ability that literally says "you're super awesome at throwing rocks" and you're coming along and saying "except it doesn't explicitly use the word proficient so it sucks to be you."Except that's not what the ability says and it's not what I'm saying - but you tend to disagree with anything I say because it was me who said it.
I agree that maybe the ability *should* grant proficiency (although it doesn't as written). My response was dealing with the comparison to giants and rock-throwing, which isn't the same thing because of the extra language for bestiary entries.
If I use the spell, "Magic Stone" to create magical stones with pebbles, and I lack a sling, so I throw them, are they improvised weapons because it doesn't specify that I gain proficiency in thrown stones?
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The abilities are written the same, yes. But monsters get those proficiencies for free as an additional rule; PCs don't.
Do Monsters gain proficiency in Improvised weapons? I'm under the impression you can't gain actual proficiency in improvised weapons without a rule that is specific in that regard, like Caught Off Guard, Throw Anything, and so forth.
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The spell states "The user of the stones makes a normal ranged attack."
If I use the spell, "Magic Stone" to create magical stones with pebbles, and I lack a sling, so I throw them, are they improvised weapons because it doesn't specify that I gain proficiency in thrown stones?
And an attack with an improvised ranged weapon isn't a normal ranged attack?
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The abilities are written the same, yes. But monsters get those proficiencies for free as an additional rule; PCs don't.Do Monsters gain proficiency in Improvised weapons? I'm under the impression you can't gain actual proficiency in improvised weapons without a rule that is specific in that regard, like Caught Off Guard, Throw Anything, and so forth.
Giants get the Universal Monster Ability Rock Throwing(EX).
Format: rock throwing (120 ft.); Location: Special Attacks (damage is listed in Ranged attack).
The language is similar but not the same. It is safer to assume that you take a non proficiency penalty and pick up Throw Anything.
You do not suffer a non-proficiency penalty for using thrown rocks because it is a special attack that happens to use a "rock"; just like a rogue with Minor magic does not suffer a penalty when casting Ray of Frost. However neither is the "rock" an improvised weapon, as you are using the rock for it's intended purpose as far as the ability is concerned. Unless you choose to use it as an improvised thrown weapon; in which case it would use the stats, range increments, and suffer penalties appropo to improvised weapons (or benefit from feats, traits, etc).
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You do not suffer a non-proficiency penalty for using thrown rocks because it is a special attack that happens to use a "rock"
The Oracle Revelation Rock Throwing is not a special attack.
However neither is the "rock" an improvised weapon, as you are using the rock for it's intended purpose as far as the ability is concerned.
The Oracle Revelation Rock Throwing does not state the oracle is proficient with throwing rocks.
I think the entry should say that the Oracle is proficient in throwing rocks, but currently it does not. I humbly suggest you hit the FAQ button on Ms. Pleiades' Post.
Steven is wrong. All extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities are "Special Abilities" per the Core Rule Book, page 554.
And since we are already being pedantic, where does the text of either ability state that throwing a rock is an "armed attack", or that the rock is treated as a "weapon"? It doesn't that I can find, so rules as written it simply isn't a weapon, it is a special ability that requires an object to perform, requires successful attack roll, and happens to use range increments.
The oracle's ability grants a racial bonus so that it won't stack with a giant's bonus (in case of Giant Stone Oracles)
(Already hit the FAQ button, just contributing.)
We're presented with two possible ways this works:
1. It grants proficiency with the thrown rock, and functions as it should. And doesn't suck.
2. It doesn't grant proficiency with them thrown rock, doesn't function like it should, and sucks.
Occam's spinning in his grave.
It is clearly a special attack in my mind, but I've nominated it for FAQ so that PFS can get their rules straight.
Despite my strong opinion, I must also admit the wording of the Brute version of this ability, Total Destruction (Ultimate Intrigue 55), includes granting the brute the Throw Anything feat. Otherwise it is just a silent on the topic of whether thrown rocks (or in the brute's case, thrown characters) are treated as weapons, or armed attacks.
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In my second post I stated I was going to post from the position of 'It does not say it grants proficiency so it does not grant proficiency'(paraphrased).
That being said; I am strongly in favor of it granting proficiency and if presented with a player doing this at my table I wouldn't penalize him. It is why I hit the FAQ button.
In fairness, you did indeed state that Steven. I only intended to argue the points you used to support that position. Forgive any rudeness on my part.
Also to be totally fair, I think it is bad game design that you need a class or racial feature to gain the right to throw a rock or character. "Throw" should have been a combat maneuver included in the Core Rulebook or Advanced Players Guide.
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I flagged this to be moved over to the Rules Forum, as there is nothing PFS-specific about the question. As with any other contentious option, it's best to be conservative in your use of the ability. Then, if you encounter a GM who's more relaxed, it's a bonus.
At its heart, this is a question about improvised weapons, which are incredibly ambiguous in Pathfinder. And it's a frequently asked question. This particular ability has come up often in this Forum, the Advice Forum, and the Rules Forum.
If we can ever get an FAQ typed up about improvised weapons, we'll have a better idea how this ability works. Until then, it's truly best to simply avoid selecting it.
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The oracle's ability grants a racial bonus so that it won't stack with a giant's bonus (in case of Giant Stone Oracles)
Racial bonuses are, oddly, a type that stacks.
With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
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If we can ever get an FAQ typed up about improvised weapons, we'll have a better idea how this ability works. Until then, it's truly best to simply avoid selecting it.
And this is why it is a PFS question. Everything allowed by additional resources should be usable materials in PFS. If they don't want to clarify the rule to a usable version, they should ban it.
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The question of how improvised weapons work is too big for the Campaign Clarifications document.
It's really best if this gets a proper FAQ.
And, again, there's nothing PFS-specific about this question. It's a rules question, plain and simple.
Except this would normally be addressed in asking your GM. And nothing in the ability verifys it as an improvised weapon.
The oracle's ability grants a racial bonus so that it won't stack with a giant's bonus (in case of Giant Stone Oracles)Racial bonuses are, oddly, a type that stacks.
With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Double checked, you were right. In which case it must be a racial bonus specifically so that it will stack with the giant's racial bonus.
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Except this would normally be addressed in asking your GM. And nothing in the ability verifys it as an improvised weapon.The question of how improvised weapons work is too big for the Campaign Clarifications document.
It's really best if this gets a proper FAQ.
And, again, there's nothing PFS-specific about this question. It's a rules question, plain and simple.
I don't think you understand what "PFS-specific" means.
And, again, there's nothing PFS-specific about this question. It's a rules question, plain and simple.
"how does i buy rock" would interact with pfs' strict item buying rules.
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I don't think you understand what "PFS-specific" means.Except this would normally be addressed in asking your GM. And nothing in the ability verifys it as an improvised weapon.The question of how improvised weapons work is too big for the Campaign Clarifications document.
It's really best if this gets a proper FAQ.
And, again, there's nothing PFS-specific about this question. It's a rules question, plain and simple.
No, I think you don't understand it. Ask the GM is a rule. This is not something that asking the PFS GM can solve, as it governs rules outside the domain of the PFS GM capacity. In a non-pfs, I'd ask the GM and that would be that. There is no need to change the Pathfinder rules for this ability, as the asking of the GM function works just fine here, just not in PFS.
PFS does not use GMs in the same capacity that normal game do. Yes, a GM can rule on things that matter with regard to a specific session, but they don't have the capacity to alter the rules for character creation. The PFS forums, on the other hand, present the rule change capacity that normally would be upto the GM, but is instead given to the PFS developers, which accept questions only when asked in these threads.
My question above is asking how the thrown rocks function in PFS with regard to character creation. For example, are they improvised or manufactured weapons for the purposes of enchanting? How much do they weigh and cost? How does the acquisition of rocks function in the game as they are not items with a listed cost? Which feats apply to the throwing of rocks?
The additional resources page clearly intends these thrown rocks to be allowed in the game, so I assume there is a system for their intended function within PFS.
Sorry if I've been inexact in my questioning, the previous posts have been via cell phone and I can't type on those very well.
Personally, I was really hoping there was an FAQ somewhere that had already addressed this. My copy of the book this came in is from 2010, so this already being asked and answered seemed like a reasonable conclusion. I did find many threads where players were never given official answers, which is fine if the subject lacks table variantion, but we've got three opinions here regarding how it is intended to function, and very limited rules supporting each one.
As it stands, claims that this a weapon attack at all are insubstanciated, as it doesn't describe the thrown rocks as weapons at all. Them being improvised or manufanctured stems from the assumption that the thrown rocks are weapons or being used as weapons. There is also no actual indication that the rocks thrown via this ability are actual found rocks, and not generated by the ability itself, as it mentions nothing regarding the acquisition of said rocks.
Personally, I lean towards Cantriped's conclusion, that the entire ability is a special attack. Granted, if it is just a special attack with no regard to weapons or improvised weapons, then this one is really just a rules question, as it doesn't dispute any rules of the PFS system.
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Except that's not what the ability says and it's not what I'm saying - but you tend to disagree with anything I say because it was me who said it.
Seriously? You think I'm so petty that I follow your posts around just to find one that I disagree with? I'm sorry if it hurts you to hear this, but I have no idea who you are. I mean, I recognize the name as someone who posts here often, but I literally don't know of anything specifically you've posted nor can I recall anything else you've posted that I specifically disagree with. I'm not saying that I haven't disagreed with you before, I'm just saying I don't have some special vendetta against you that you apparently believe exists.
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EDIT: taken to PM to avoid derail.