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I'm finally getting back around to playing my PFS Brawler. He's going to hit 3rd level this weekend, and I'm trying to plan out his feats. I was going to take Hurtful at 3rd, but that's no longer PFS legal. I'll likely now take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). I'm wondering if there's any advantage to taking Martial Focus at 5th. That would open up Weapon Mastery feats like Weapon Style Mastery and Retributive Kick.
The build/plan looks something like this.
Name: Stelio
Race: Half-Orc
Class/Level: Brawler 1
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
HP: 22
AC: 17 Touch AC: 12 Flat AC: 14
Fort: +6 Ref: +6 Will: +2
Init +2 BAB: +2 CMB: +6 CMD: 18
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike: +5 (1d6+4)
Whip: +5 (1d3+4)
Javelin +3 (1d6+4)
Traits:
Fates Favored: +1 to any Luck bonus
Bad Reputation +2 Intimidate
Racial Traits:
City-Raised: +2 Know: Local, Proficient with Whip and Longsword
Sacred Tattoo: +1 luck bonus to all saves
Darkvision: 60'
Intimidating: +2 on Intimidate
Feats:
1: Enforcer
B: Improved Unarmed Strike
B2: Power Attack
Planned:
3: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
5: Intimidating Prowess
B5: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Class Abilities:
Unarmed Damage: 1d6
Martial Flexibility: 4/day
Brawler's Cunning: Count as 13 Int for prereqs
Martial Training: Count Brawler Level as Fighter/Monk level for prereqs
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Intimidate: +9, Know: Local +7, Perception +5
Equipment: Chain Shirt+1, Whip, Javelins (2), MWK Backpack, 50' Silk Rope, Grappling Hook, Rations 7 days, Traveler's Outfit, Potion of Enlarge Person, Oil of Magic Weapon, Alchemist's Fire, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, wayfinder
By 7th level, I'd plan to have: Chain Shirt +2 (4,250gp), Cruel Amulet of Mighty Fists (4,000gp), Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4,000gp), Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (4,000gp), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)
Instead of Weapon Specialization at 5, I could take Martial Focus with my bonus feat. I could then take a Weapon Mastery feat with my regular 5th level feat. I'd get +1 to damage instead of +2 from Specialization.
Does Retributive Kick work if the original full-attack is with unarmed strikes? If so, that would basically give me a free reroll on my last attack every round.
Or I could take Outslug Style then Pummeling Style and work toward Weapon Style Mastery. That progression would look something like this:
1) Enforcer
B) Improved Unarmed Strike
B2) Power Attack
3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
5) Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
B5) Martial Focus (Close)
7) Outslug Style
B8) Pummeling Style
9) Weapon Style Mastery
11) Pummeling Charge
B11) Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
There are lots of ways I could swap the order of feats around. If I want to prioritize Pummeling Charge, for example, I could move Pummeling Style to 7, Pummeling Charge to 8, Outslug Style to 9, and Weapon Style Mastery to 11.
I feel like I might use Outslug Style more consistently, though. With the progression above, at 7th, I'd be able to pick up Outslug Weave and Lunge with Martial Flexibility, or I'd be able to pick up Pummeling Charge and Greater Weapon Focus with Martial Flexibility at 8th, though the action economy on that isn't great. Even if I use a move action and grab two feats, so I'll have a swift to enter Pummeling Style, I wouldn't be able to charge that same round.
Anyway, I'm a little overwhelmed with all of the new options. I think Weapon Focus is my level 3 feat regardless.
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Luckily, you have a really nice opportunity here. When you hit level 3, switch out your bonus feat (level 2) for one of the level 3 options, and put power attack in your static level 3 feat slot. You can test out one option for 3 scenarios between level 3 and 4, and if you don't like it (or use it rarely enough that you can just use Martial Flexibility to take it as needed), you can switch it back out for the other option.
Luckily, you have a really nice opportunity here. When you hit level 3, switch out your bonus feat (level 2) for one of the level 3 options, and put power attack in your static level 3 feat slot. You can test out one option for 3 scenarios between level 3 and 4, and if you don't like it (or use it rarely enough that you can just use Martial Flexibility to take it as needed), you can switch it back out for the other option.
I think you're mixing up brawler bonus feats for inquisitor solo tactics...?
Or forgetting that brawlers can't swap out bonus feats for free til level 5.
You don't need both Outslug and Pummeling. Both solve the same issue.
I'm not versed in what is and isn't PFS legal, but would Martial Focus then allow you to take the Advanced Weapon Training feat and nab some things like Fighter's Tactics? Most of the good Teamwork feats are Combat feats and thus valid to grab with Martial Flexibility. Being able to pick teamwork feats to grab on the fly and benefit from them regardless of if your teammates have them seems like it could be useful. Or you could grab Focused Weapon if there's a melee weapon you want, since it would scale better than Close Weapon Mastery.
Advanced Weapon Training itself IS a Combat feat, too, so you could potentially even grab it as you need it (though most of them scale with your basically nonexistent Weapon Training, some of them are useful).
Nope. AWT is not a weapon mastery feat.
Nope. AWT is not a weapon mastery feat.
Right, but it is something potentially useful for someone who's already taking Martial Focus and can qualify for Fighter feats. Not directly relevant to Weapon Style Mastery, but still maybe useful, especially if only going for one combat style.
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You don't need both Outslug and Pummeling. Both solve the same issue.
I'm not sure what you mean. Pummeling Style stacks your attacks for overcoming DR. Outslug Style gives a +1 to AC and +1 to damage when you 5-foot step.
Dragon Style is another option for the second style feat. Or anything I can pick up with Martial Flexibility. You just have to have two style feats to take Weapon Style Mastery.
EDIT: The reason I didn't have Dragon Style in the original build is that I don't have the Wisdom to qualify for Stunning Fist, which is required for Dragon Ferocity. So I can't pick that up with Martial Flexibility.
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Right, but it is something potentially useful for someone who's already taking Martial Focus and can qualify for Fighter feats. Not directly relevant to Weapon Style Mastery, but still maybe useful, especially if only going for one combat style.Nope. AWT is not a weapon mastery feat.
Martial Focus only counts as Weapon Training for the purpose of Weapon Mastery feats. It does not count as having Weapon Training to qualify for the Advanced Weapon Training feat. Otherwise AWT feat would be a great use of Martial Flexibility. But unfortunately, it doesn't work.
You don't need both Outslug and Pummeling. Both solve the same issue.I'm not sure what you mean. Pummeling Style stacks your attacks for overcoming DR. Outslug Style gives a +1 to AC and +1 to damage when you 5-foot step.
Dragon Style is another option for the second style feat. Or anything I can pick up with Martial Flexibility. You just have to have two style feats to take Weapon Style Mastery.
EDIT: The reason I didn't have Dragon Style in the original build is that I don't have the Wisdom to qualify for Stunning Fist, which is required for Dragon Ferocity. So I can't pick that up with Martial Flexibility.
Bypassing DR is rarely an issue for Brawlers - MFing for weapon versatility solves the most common issues and the rest you naturally grow into. Other things are quickly solved with consumables.
What both feats do is grant the brawler mobility. One comes with longer range and some DR penetration, the other with extra damage and AC.
Having either is basically mandatory for a good brawler. But having both is largely redundant. GWF and weapon specialization both grant more feat per feat output that outslug, and things you can MF for can better bypass WE than pummeling.
Is Weapon style mastery a bad idea? Probably not if you main Outslug, because you could MF for Jabbing Style for output, Pummeling charge for extra range, Crane style for AC, Street Style when in an alleyway... But I wouldn't spend real feats on a second line.
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Ok. Got it. The issue is that the action economy doesn't really allow for using Pummeling Charge through Martial Flexibility, because you can't use both in the same round. MF will use either a swift or a move action. Entering Pummeling Style uses a swift. You can't charge after using a move action. It works fine in the middle of a combat, when you've already entered Pummeling Style, but not in round 1. Even if I had Pummeling Style as an actual feat, I could use a swift to pick up Pummeling Charge, but I couldn't enter Pummeling Style on the same round. The only way to use MF and charge with Pummeling Charge on the first round is to have Pummeling Charge as a known feat already.
I'm basically doing the reverse of what you're suggesting. I would use MF to pick up Greater Weapon Focus most fights, unless something situational is better. So round 1, I could enter Outslug Style and Pummeling Style, then charge with Pummeling Charge. Round 2 I can swift pick up Greater Weapon Focus, 5-foot step and full attack with Outslug. If the creature I'm fighting has reach, I could instead use a move action to pick up Lunge and Outflank Weave.
But you're probably right that having a feat that applies all the time is likely better than having a situational feat.
How do you read Retributive Kick? Would that work with an all unarmed strike full attack, or do you need to be wielding a manufactured weapon? If it works, it would give a free reroll on my last attack every round, if that attack misses. Or a free reroll on my full-BAB off hand attack instead of rolling my iterative main hand (before 8th level). I could take that (and Martial Focus) at 5th, and Weapon Specialization at 7th, Greater Weapon Focus at 8th, Outslug at 9th. Then a second Style feat and Weapon Style Mastery at 11th.
As for not spending feats on a second line of style feats, Weapon Style Mastery requires you to have two Style feats. Since only the first feat in each chain is actually a Style feat, you have to have at least the first feat in two chains, one of which must be a weapon style (have Weapon Focus as a prereq). You can't choose Weapon Style Mastery with MF, since it isn't a Combat feat. So you have to actually take two Style feats. I could take Outslug and Jabbing Style or Dragon Style instead of Pummeling Style.
ALL Weapon Mastery feats are Combat feats.
Check out page 20 of Weapon Master's Handbook
Weapon mastery feats count as combat feats for all purposes, including which classes can select them as bonus feats, and you gain the benefits of a weapon mastery feat only while wielding a weapon that belongs to a fighter weapon group that you have selected with the fighter weapon training class feature (referred to hereafter as an “appropriate weapon”), and any effect of these feats related to attacks applies only to attacks from such weapons unless the feat specifies otherwise.
They threw that in there as a general rule about all Weapon Mastery feats. Probably so they don't have to put in (Weapon Mastery AND Combat) tags with the feat name when Weapon Mastery itself is supposed to always count as Combat, just a specific type of Combat feat: "Although most combat techniques are general enough to be categorized as combat feats, some require such a high level of martial skill that they are instead categorized as weapon mastery feats."
Quick thought pummelling style also helps over come hardness unless you are doing it another way. It's not common but it comes up.
Pummeling Style will help with DR, but it doesn't with hardness as it doesn't say it does. Those are separate things and handled differently in game.
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Quick thought pummelling style also helps over come hardness unless you are doing it another way. It's not common but it comes up.Pummeling Style will help with DR, but it doesn't with hardness as it doesn't say it does. Those are separate things and handled differently in game.
Good call. Had not read it in a while.
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ALL Weapon Mastery feats are Combat feats.
Check out page 20 of Weapon Master's Handbook
Weapon mastery feats count as combat feats for all purposes, including which classes can select them as bonus feats, and you gain the benefits of a weapon mastery feat only while wielding a weapon that belongs to a fighter weapon group that you have selected with the fighter weapon training class feature (referred to hereafter as an “appropriate weapon”), and any effect of these feats related to attacks applies only to attacks from such weapons unless the feat specifies otherwise.They threw that in there as a general rule about all Weapon Mastery feats. Probably so they don't have to put in (Weapon Mastery AND Combat) tags with the feat name when Weapon Mastery itself is supposed to always count as Combat, just a specific type of Combat feat: "Although most combat techniques are general enough to be categorized as combat feats, some require such a high level of martial skill that they are instead categorized as weapon mastery feats."
Ah! Thank you! I read that last sentence you quoted and thought it was saying instead of being Combat feats, they are something else (and thus not Combat Feats). I did not see the text on page 20. That adds some flexibility, then, and makes Martial Focus a little more valuable in combination with Martial Flexibility.
EDIT: So my feats would look like this now:
1) Enforcer
1B) Improved Unarmed Strike
2B) Power Attack
3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
5) Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
5B) Martial Focus (Close)
7) Greater Weapon Focus
8B) Outslug
9) Iron Will
11) Lunge
11B) Outslug Weave
Or I could decide Improved Iron Will, Toughness and/or Improved Critical are more important than having Outslug Weave all the time.
Thanks everyone, this has been extremely helpful so far.
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I need to double-check that all of these are PFS legal, but for an unarmed build, that would open up the following as feats I could choose with Martial Flexibility:
Cut from the Air (5th level)
Devastating Assault (9th level)
Difficult Swings (5th level)
Retributive Kick (5th level)
Weapon Material Mastery (in the event I needed to pick up an Adamantine weapon or something) (7th level)
Weapon Style Mastery (Assuming I take one Style feat and pick one up with MF) (6th level)
(Smash from the Air is not PFS legal)
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Oops. Can't take Greater Weapon Focus until 8th. Insomnia and lack of sleep strike again. I'd either swap GWF and Outslug Style, or I'd work Toughness in at 5th or 7th, since that can't be picked up through MF.
EDIT: I'm thinking of using my Favored Class Bonus from 3rd level to 10th level to go towards +1/4 increase to unarmed strike damage progression, for +2 effective levels. That would get me to 1d10 at 7th and 2d6 at 10th. Toughness would help offset the loss of hitpoints. If it looks like I'll be able to afford a Monk's Robe by 9th, then I'd only need +1 effective level to get to 2d8. I should have been doing that from the beginning. Then a Monk's Robe would get me to 2d8 by 8th level. I can also spend some prestige and retrain for hitpoints to make up for the loss.
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Update... After adding a We B4 Goblins chronicle to him Saturday to get him to 3rd, I played him today in a subtler 3-4 scenario with Weapon Focus. It went pretty well. I mainly used Martial Flexibility to pick up either Furious Focus or Dodge. I did get knocked out in the final fight, but that's mostly because during the interim that I didn't play him (It's been a while), Brawlers were given shield proficiency by the ACG errata without me realizing.
So new question... I'm thinking I might go with a Light Darkwood Quickdraw Shield +1 (I have the gold for it after today's scenario). That would leave me able to hold something in that hand if needed, and add the extra flexibility to store as a swift or of picking up Quickdraw with MF if I ever need to store/retrieve the shield fast. Like if I need to switch to the Longspear.
Also, should I go ahead and try to work either Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighter into the build? I haven't done so, because I figure at 6th level, I'll be able to pick one of them up and an Improved maneuver feat through Martial Flexibility. It means I can't pick any of the Improved maneuver feats up until then. But I can just provoke if I decide I need to use one.
The updated build for the record.
Name: Stelio
Race: Half-Orc
Class/Level: Brawler 3
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
HP: 30
AC: 19 Touch AC: 12 Flat AC: 17
Fort: +7 Ref: +7 Will: +4
Init +2 BAB: +3 CMB: +7 (+1 Trip) CMD: 19 (+1 vs Trip)
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike: +8 (1d6+4)
w/ Power Atack: +7 (1d6+6)
w/ Flurry: +6 (1d6+4)
w/ Flurry Power Attack: +5 (1d6+6)
Whip: +7 (1d3+4)
Javelin +5 (1d6+4)
Mwk Longspear: +8 (1d6+6)
w/Power Attack: +7 (1d6+9)
Traits:
Fates Favored: +1 to any Luck bonus
Bad Reputation +2 Intimidate
Racial Traits:
City-Raised: +2 Know: Local, Proficient with Whip and Longsword
Sacred Tattoo: +1 luck bonus to all saves
Darkvision: 60'
Intimidating: +2 on Intimidate
Feats:
1: Enforcer
B: Improved Unarmed Strike
B2: Power Attack
3: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Planned
5) Toughness
5B) Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
7) Martial Focus (Close)
8B) Greater Weapon Focus
9) Outslug
11) Iron Will
11B) Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
Class Abilities:
Unarmed Damage: 1d6
Martial Flexibility: 4/day
Brawler's Cunning: Count as 13 Int for prereqs
Martial Training: Count Brawler Level as Fighter/Monk level for prereqs
Maneuver Training: Trip +1
Skills: Acrobatics +7, Intimidate: +10, Know: Local +8, Perception +6
Favored Class Bonus: +2HP, +1/4 level Unarmed Strike Damage Progression
Equipment: Chain Shirt+1, Light Darkwood Quickdraw Shield +1, Whip, Javelins (2), MWK Longspear, Cloak of Resistance +1, MWK Backpack, 50' Silk Rope, Grappling Hook, Rations 7 days, Traveler's Outfit, Potion of Enlarge Person, Oil of Magic Weapon, Alchemist's Fire, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, wayfinder
By 7th level, I'd plan to try to have: Chain Shirt +2 (3,000gp*), Light Darkwood Quickdraw Shield +2 (3,000gp*), Cruel Amulet of Mighty Fists (4,000gp), Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4,000gp), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000) Then start saving for Monk's Robes.
*Upgrade Cost
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I would use MF to pick up Greater Weapon Focus most fights, unless something situational is better.
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Dedicated Adversary is the go to feat for most brawlers in any fight that has only one or two kinds of enemies. In PFS you have to pick a specific ethnicity for human, like chelaxian or garundi, but even that's not usually a big problem. In any fight that only has a single enemy type it's pretty hard to beat unless you need to perform a specific combat maneuver, or need something like blind-fight.
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Oh wow. That is a good feat. Thanks! I vaguely remember reading it when the Dirty Tactics Toolkit came out, but I'd forgotten about it. This is what I'm talking about with the newer options. There are so many good, new feats and options, I can't keep track.
I'll have to remember this one for my Forgotton Trick/Combat Trick Ninja as well. I think it probably works out better than Piranha Strike against a high AC opponent (-3/+6 vs +2/+2).