So, I was looking over the Phantom Thief and thinking "this is new levels of awfully bad". But is it really? Let's do a comparison.
At level 1, the Phantom Thief has a few class skills the Investigator lacks - Handle Animal, Ride and Survival; +0 to one of them, because the half level bonus doesn't have the usual "minimum one" clause; 2 more skill points; and finesse training (because unchained rogue is the only rogue).
The Investigator, meanwhile, has good Will saves, Inspiration (including free inspiration on all knowledge checks), Trapfinding and Alchemy.
At level 1, the Investigator seems to be the better skill user. Both of them look like terrible fighters, but the Phantom Thief seems slightly better at making melee attacks for 1d6 damage with his d8 HD and light armor proficiency. Advantage: investigator.
At level 4, the P.T. has 8 extra skill points (48 vs. 40 assuming +4 per level), Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, dex-to-damage with a melee weapon of her choice, Social Sense +1, 2 rogue talents with expanded options, and 2 skills with a +2 bonus and the level 5 unlock. Those expanded talent options are mostly "combat feat or skill focus", though. He can take Vigilante social talents, except for the one social talent that isn't completely terrible.
The investigator has Poison Lore, Swift Alchemy, Posion Resistance, can make untrained knowledge checks and has Trap Sense +1, all of which are trash abilities that he should really trade out by archetype. He also has a talent, Studied Combat +2/+2, Studied Strike +1d6, and 2. level extracts.
At this point, the Investigator can be a competent combat character; the PT is a medium-BAB character with no accuracy or damage boosts. To be fair, if both characters spec skills-only, the PT will be less terrible than the investigator at combat.
If we're speccing for skills, the PT takes skill focus twice because his other skill-boosting options are terrible, and the investigator takes Expanded Inspiration or Underworld Inspiration. PT gains +5 to two skills (and teeny tiny circumstance bonuses from skill unlocks), Investigator gains +1d6 to a total of 7 skills plus all 10 knowledges, with the option to spend inspiration on any other skill. For any specific challenge, the Investigator can completely blow away the PT with extracts.
Normally I'd do level 6, but apparently level 7 is good for the PT.
At this point he has 98 skill points vs. 84 (assuming +6/level), his skill buffs are 4 skills at +3 with level 10 unlocks, he has 3 talents total, and Social Sense is at +2.
Notable skill unlocks: Stealth abilities he could have had as racial traits at level 1, Bluff: if your GM wants you to succeed you can keep rolling, Diplomacy you can change attitutes in 1 round except not in combat, Disable Device you can disarm that once-in-a-lifetime magical trap at -10, Disguise you're almost as good as a 1st level extract, Intimidate is actually useful if you focus on it, Perception: the distance modifier (which your GM is totally applying by-the-book all the time) is reduced to one-third, Sense Motive: you can duplicate a 2. level extract with about the same odds of succes (if you take Skill Focus), except only the social intel-gathering ability, not the awesome tactical recon ability.
The investigator has 3 talents as well, his combat buff is +2/+2/+2d6, and he has access to flight and other tricks that the PT just can't duplicate.
I guess the Phantom Thief is for those times when you've made an in-character decision to kinda suck and you want your stats to reflect that.
Your last sentence sums it up nicely :)
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It's not a bad choice if you want to build around a particularly feat-heavy build (especially a Dex-based one) and want better skills than a fighter. I've got a couple in the works - a kitsune nine-tails build using Nine-Tailed Scion, and a Divine Fighting Style (Cayden Cailean) build.
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It's not a bad choice if you want to build around a particularly feat-heavy build (especially a Dex-based one) and want better skills than a fighter. I've got a couple in the works - a kitsune nine-tails build using Nine-Tailed Scion, and a Divine Fighting Style (Cayden Cailean) build.
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How did I of all people not think of that?
I guess I just didn't consider that Nine-Tailed Scion would work and also I really love Kitsune Trickster for the Int to skills and Charm Person. But, yea... all those Fighter builds that focus on Nine-Tailed Scion could easily be Phantom Thief and probably better as a result. I guess at that point you are playing a really funky wizard with heavy mundane skills.
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Phantom Thief is more for the players who want the following:
2-Handed Dexterity to Damage
The world's most reliable non-magic skill monkey
More class skills and ranks per level than you could shake a stick at
Fighters with more skill than martial prowess
But I find the best use of the class is for NPCs. It works well for characters who need to be skilled in many areas by necessity, such as a thief or a diplomat. It's also a strong option for Gestalt games or for characters whose build doesn't require much attack bonus, such as Gunslingers post-5.
It's not a bad choice if you want to build around a particularly feat-heavy build (especially a Dex-based one) and want better skills than a fighter. I've got a couple in the works - a kitsune nine-tails build using Nine-Tailed Scion, and a Divine Fighting Style (Cayden Cailean) build.
That sounds fun. I'll be snatching that up after I give my Deadly Dealer/Startoss PT a whirl (rule of cool).
Phantom Thief excels at skills that have good unlocks. Alas, there aren't a lot, but Intimidate can give you some good combat options.
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You forgot one other important detail that separates the Phantom Thief apart. It can take Minor and Major Magic rogue talents multiple times, unlike the one of that even the Unchained Rogue has to work with. So that gives the PT the ability to pick some actual offensive magic that the Investigator doesn't have access to. So Burning Hands, Color Spray, Magic Missile, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, and other useful 1st level spells can be used by the Phantom Thief when the Investigator can't.
The ability to have more than one magical trick at the PTs disposal isn't something that should be ignored. This earlier skill unlocks are great, and the unchained version still has Dex to damage at 4th level. So it has some potential.
It can take Minor and Major Magic rogue talents multiple times
This plus bookish rogue gives you lots of flexibility. You can end up with a wide variety of slots to fill with whatever spells you wish that day.
So, I can be a Fighter who takes medium-bab in exchange for being better at skills, and gives away weapon training for nothing? Or I can be the world's greatest 1. level Wizard? I think I'll pass.
The Kitsune build looks decent, but I would take the Oracle* version any day.
(Oracle, Wrecking Mysticism curse, Spirit Guide archetype. Ninth tail achieved at level 8).
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Maybe I don't want to be an oracle. Sometimes I want a more mundane-flavored character, with elements of the mystical rather than an overwhelming focus on it.
Maybe I don't want to be a fighter. I enjoy having the ability to use skills. And depending on the campaign, a phantom thief may be able to contribute far more than a fighter - weapon training is only good if a weapon will solve your problem.
I'm glad those things exist too, so you don't have to play something you don't like. And I'm glad we have this as an option. ^_^
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If Skill Unlocks were as good as they should have been the Phantom Thief would be an amazing archetype. As is it's a nice addition for that person that wants to play a Rogue just because they want to be really good at skills and don't care about much of anything else at all (that ain't me but we've all known somebody like that).
So, I can be a Fighter who takes medium-bab in exchange for being better at skills, and gives away weapon training for nothing? Or I can be the world's greatest 1. level Wizard? I think I'll pass.
The Kitsune build looks decent, but I would take the Oracle* version any day.
(Oracle, Wrecking Mysticism curse, Spirit Guide archetype. Ninth tail achieved at level 8).
It's a gem of an NPC Archetype that a creative player can use to make interesting characters on the weaker end of the spectrum.
Or just make a 10th level PT with 40 uses of magic missile a day, Spell Penetration feats, and Hide in Plain Sight.
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I'd like to believe that they limited themselves because skill unlocks are technically supposed to be a universal system and not just something for Rogues but we all know that's probably not the case. They really needed to go wild with the mechanic and make some really powerful options; "at 20 ranks in Escape Artist you are treated as if you are constantly under the effects of freedom" is the kind of thing we should have gotten.
I'd like to believe that they limited themselves because skill unlocks are technically supposed to be a universal system and not just something for Rogues but we all know that's probably not the case. They really needed to go wild with the mechanic and make some really powerful options; "at 20 ranks in Escape Artist you are treated as if you are constantly under the effects of freedom" is the kind of thing we should have gotten.
Yes, except at 15 ranks. It feels a little early at 10, but it's already a bit late at 15. Put in the ability to slip mind control at 20 ranks, or something.
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Uh... Freedom is a 9th level spell, with effects designed to let you escape other 9th level spells for free. Wizards can't cast it at all at 15, seems a bit odd for a Rogue to have it at will before Wizards can use it by expending resources. I would probably put freedom of movement at 10th level, and have slipping mind control be the effects at 5 and 15.
I think there are two major areas of disagreement.
First, the set of problems that can be solved with skills (compared to the set of problems that can be solved with spells). This is where I loathe the no-magic, bad-at-combat "skill monkey".
Second, the amount of agency and contributing play time I'm willing to give up in order to say that I don't use magic. This is where the Phantom Thief completely loses to the Investigator, who as I pointed out is pretty much on par with the PT before extracts and way ahead with them.
I think there are two major areas of disagreement.
First, the set of problems that can be solved with skills (compared to the set of problems that can be solved with spells). This is where I loathe the no-magic, bad-at-combat "skill monkey".
Second, the amount of agency and contributing play time I'm willing to give up in order to say that I don't use magic. This is where the Phantom Thief completely loses to the Investigator, who as I pointed out is pretty much on par with the PT before extracts and way ahead with them.
Okay, so now this begs a very important question to you: What do you normally play? Cause this sounds more like you are in a situation where you have to play either an Investigator or a Phantom Thief, instead of the type of character you usually play. And as this thread has grown, a bias has begin to show from the OP here. So I had to ask the question.
Let's face facts here. Both the Phantom Thief and the Investigator are skill monkeys with some magical/pseudo-magical potential. Both have different ways of adding to the skills before breaking out the magic/alchemy. It should come down to personal preference, or at least try both.
Uh... Freedom is a 9th level spell, with effects designed to let you escape other 9th level spells for free. Wizards can't cast it at all at 15, seems a bit odd for a Rogue to have it at will before Wizards can use it by expending resources. I would probably put freedom of movement at 10th level, and have slipping mind control be the effects at 5 and 15.
Oh. I read FoM, not Freedom Freedom.