Would a spellcaster be able to use point blank shot and precise shot when they cast their spells. The reason I'm curious about this is I know you can take weapon focus for ray spells. I would be especially like to know for use in the Pathfinder Society as I have a spellcaster I want to bring in to use. So if any of the big gurus could weigh in on this I would be most grateful.
|
Yes. If you wanted to cast scorching ray past an ally that is engaged in melee with your intended target, you would get a -4 to the attack because he is engaged in melee and the target would get a +4 to ac because of the soft cover from your ally.
The former is overcome by precise shot.
The latter by improved precise shot.
Point blank shot would give you a +1 to attack and damage if you're within 30 feet, even with the spell. As long as it requires a ranged touch attack to hit, PBS, precise shot, and the like will always work.
|
As far as I know, there is some controversy about certain aspects of this. It's almost undeniable that rays work for these - they're counted as weapons for all effects, effectively. Some people say that Acid Splash won't count - you make a Ranged Attack, but it's not using a Ranged Weapon, so you don't get the effects.
Yes a spell caster could use both feats; the Core Rulebook FAQ forum has two complementary clarifications on this. That said most Spells that require an attack roll attack touch AC which typically is 1-4 or more lower than full AC. In most campaigns and PFS play most Player Characters have vastly more feats they "want or would like", than they will have feat slots for.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
If you make an attack roll and the spell or ability does hit point damage, it's a weapon. Apply all the weapon attack rules. Some GMs don't do it as intended, and you can't point to rule to get them on the same page. They read the FAQ as not applicable and the Dev posts as "not official".
|
|
If you make an attack roll and the spell or ability does hit point damage, it's a weapon. Apply all the weapon attack rules. Some GMs don't do it as intended, and you can't point to rule to get them on the same page. They read the FAQ as not applicable and the Dev posts as "not official".
I agree, I was just letting him know that there is a significant population of GMs I know that have issues with sneak attack damage on an acid splash, or point blank shot on acid splash, but are fine with it on a ray.
If you make an attack roll and the spell or ability does hit point damage, it's a weapon. Apply all the weapon attack rules. Some GMs don't do it as intended, and you can't point to rule to get them on the same page. They read the FAQ as not applicable and the Dev posts as "not official".
That dev post says "it should be a ray", not that everything with an attack roll was a weapon.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
That dev post says "it should be a ray", not that everything with an attack roll was a weapon.
There have been literally countless posts saying that all ranged attack with spells and abilities add in all other bonuses to hits with those.
I did find this that talks about not double dipping on splash damage things various bonuses to hit. So the uncertainly comes from whether or not the FAQ on PBS saying it doesn't work on splash damage is because it's already factored in on the minimum damage.
There might have been countless posts, but I haven't seen any that say acid splash counts as a weapon or anything similar.
You are correct that those are the implications involved. I know how I rule it. I'm just saying I haven't seen any of these countless posts that James was talking about. The only post I've seen is SKR saying that weird words should be rays. Which doesn't imply at all that acid splash should be a ray or that acid splash and similar spells are also considered a weapon like a ray spell is.
If you rule non-ray spells requiring ranged attack roles are not weapons: PBS and Precise shot will not apply.
If you rule non-ray spells requiring ranged attack roles are not weapons: penalties for firing ranged weapons into melee will not apply.
Personally, I've always treated Acid Splash and similar spells as weapons.
If a DM wanted to rule the other way, I'll happily forgo the penalties.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think their definition of weapon like is
make attack roll deal hit point damage
Do you have anything that supports this view that you can link or quote from a book?
They really do need to change "weapons" to attacks. It wouldn't even push anything over to the next page.
More specifically they cannot use precise shot and pbs for most spells because the feats say 'ranged weapon' Deadly Aim does not, so it will work with any ranged attack that isn't a touch attack (which includes things other than spells). Cover and concealment apply to all ranged attacks. However (and thank you for this thread teaching me) under the rules on shooting into melee, it specifically says 'ranged weapon' again... So spells other than rays that require a to-hit roll do not suffer that penalty. Unless there is a FAQ stating that all ranged spells that require a to-hit roll are considered weapons, then per the rules only rays are considered ranged weapons (possibly there could be specific spells that say there are, but they would be exceptions to the rule.) Rays can benefit from weapon focus, pbs, and precise shot, and do take penalties fired into melee without the feat. This inspires me to glance at kineticists and a certain vigilante archetype, to see how it applies... I'm not as familiar with them.
The intent is for all ranged attacks. I am 100% an FAQ would make that clear. Being able to understand the unwritten design rules helps let people know when the wording is jacked up, but that does not help in an actual rules debate.
Whether or not your attack is a "weapon," making a ranged attack at a target who is in melee with one of your allies means you take the –4 penalty
Now of course nothing outside of the FAQ is official, but it shows intent. From here you can choose to do as you wish until an FAQ pops up.
Since I don't have much else to do I guess I can create that FAQ right now and link to it.