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Hey everyone.
I am posting my house rules here for feedback and constructive criticism. Along with them I am posting a first draft of my slightly adjusted fighter.
I still have some fighter concerns such as lack of access to such things as dispel magic/spell sunder, lack of in class flight, and I am worried exactly how well he will scale. I do however think he will hold up better against a Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian.
So please feel free to comment and criticize anything.
Just for clarity's sake my design goals are as follows:
- Keep Fighter a mundane based simple class.
- Make Fighter be able to perform at the level of a Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian, both in and out of combat.
- Ensure the class is fun to play.
- Cut down on the system mastery required to make a "good" Fighter.
- Have Fighter scale with levels in all areas.
I hate that the formatting of the text box on the second page of the fighter doc.
How accurate would it be to say that the major changes in this fighter are the inclusion of a martial flexibility-like mechanic and a modification to bravery?
I hate that the formatting of the text box on the second page of the fighter doc.
How accurate would it be to say that the major changes in this fighter are the inclusion of a martial flexibility-like mechanic and a modification to bravery?
Thank you for your speedy feedback!
I have just fixed some format errors in the box on page 2.
Major changes are
- All good saves.
- Martial flexibility like mechanic named muscle memory, funnily enough I had not read martial flexibility until after I wrote it. :-)
- 6+int skills.
- Inquisitor like ability to switch out bonus feats.
- Bonus feats not limited to combat feats.
- Bonus feats granting their upgrade automatically.
- Rerolls from Bravery and a Bravery like ability for fortitude saves called Thews of Steel.
- Weapon training allows for all weapon specific feats to be applied to all weapons in a selected group.
- AAT and AWT are in addition to rather than in place of scaling in armor and weapon training.
- Changed many AAT and AWT options.
I hate that the formatting of the text box on the second page of the fighter doc.
How accurate would it be to say that the major changes in this fighter are the inclusion of a martial flexibility-like mechanic and a modification to bravery?
Thank you for your speedy feedback!
I have just fixed some format errors in the box on page 2.
Major changes are
- All good saves.
- Martial flexibility like mechanic named muscle memory, funnily enough I had not read martial flexibility until after I wrote it. :-)
- 6+int skills.
- Inquisitor like ability to switch out bonus feats.
- Bonus feats not limited to combat feats.
- Bonus feats granting their upgrade automatically.
- Rerolls from Bravery and a Bravery like ability for fortitude saves called Thews of Steel.
- Weapon training allows for all weapon specific feats to be applied to all weapons in a selected group.
- AAT and AWT are in addition to rather than in place of scaling in armor and weapon training.
- Changed many AAT and AWT options.
Hmm, ok. I think that while this is a power boost for the fighter, it kind of skirts around the main issue that the class have (a lack of means by which to solve problems). They're still really good at pumping out damage but as the game goes on pumping out damage starts to lose value. You've also given them a lot of feats, even more than they already had, which can make it kind of a pain to build them.
Have you considered giving them free access to the Stamina rules from Unchained?
I have no real issue with your other houserules. I'd play using them.
I hate that the formatting of the text box on the second page of the fighter doc.
How accurate would it be to say that the major changes in this fighter are the inclusion of a martial flexibility-like mechanic and a modification to bravery?
Thank you for your speedy feedback!
I have just fixed some format errors in the box on page 2.
Major changes are
- All good saves.
- Martial flexibility like mechanic named muscle memory, funnily enough I had not read martial flexibility until after I wrote it. :-)
- 6+int skills.
- Inquisitor like ability to switch out bonus feats.
- Bonus feats not limited to combat feats.
- Bonus feats granting their upgrade automatically.
- Rerolls from Bravery and a Bravery like ability for fortitude saves called Thews of Steel.
- Weapon training allows for all weapon specific feats to be applied to all weapons in a selected group.
- AAT and AWT are in addition to rather than in place of scaling in armor and weapon training.
- Changed many AAT and AWT options.
Hmm, ok. I think that while this is a power boost for the fighter, it kind of skirts around the main issue that the class have (a lack of means by which to solve problems). They're still really good at pumping out damage but as the game goes on pumping out damage starts to lose value. You've also given them a lot of feats, even more than they already had, which can make it kind of a pain to build them.
Have you considered giving them free access to the Stamina rules from Unchained?
I have no real issue with your other houserules. I'd play using them.
I agree and that is one of my main concerns. I was attempting to allow for more flexibility to solve problems via letting Muscle Memory be any feats and not just combat, and via increased skill points and AAT and AWT options but I fear it is still not quite there. Better but outside combat I am afraid it may fall flat. I am also afraid of the fact that since feats are so modular with this Fighter that it did substantially raise the bar on system mastery above my desired goal.
If you have any suggestions I would be glad to hear them and I thank you for your feedback.
There's a lot of Fighter fixes out there with mixed results. I've got my personal favorites, but maybe it would help if you gooogled and found some you liked and what you thought they did right? At the very least you'll get an idea of what others may have done to approach the problem.
Anyone else have any ideas?
What do you think about the dip-friendliness of your new Fighter? D10 + All good saves + Full BAB + 2 generic feats that can be switched, one of which ignores Prereqs?
A Level 1 Human Wizard / Level 1 Fighter may pick these feats:
Metamagic Quicken (Human)
Metamagic Empower (Level 1)
Metamagic Maximize (Fighter 1)
Spell Perfection (Fighter 1 Muscle Memory)and can start casting Quickened OR Empowered OR Maximized spell of the wizard's choice for 1 minute. Also the stats/saves are good from Fighter 1.
Edit - The Wizard can keep full Caster Level with the trait Magical Knack.
I see what you mean, and I had thought about that. My initial thought was to delay Muscle Memory to third.
Spell perfection was actually the big hold up in my thoughts as well, but since it is only for one spell I had left it at first. I may move it back to third, however the wizard does delay his spell casting progression for that trick and can only do it for once per day. I am still up in the air.
Just limit Muscle Memory to Combat feats or something and that fixes the spell perfection issue. Maybe don't allow it to bypass any requirements because then you have issues like this one, but have a limit on how many ranks they can bypass based on their level?
Thank you both for your feedback.
Maybe I will only let Muscle Memory let the fighter count as if he had skill ranks equal to twice his level or even three times to shut down the spell perfection but still help with style feats.
What do you think?
Anyone have any input on the house rules or anything else on the fighter?
A few things that stick out to me:
- Inquisitor style feat switching and Martial Flexibility are attempting to address similar issues and have both thematic and mechanical overlap. There is no reason why your revised fighter needs both. Choose one "flexible feats" mechanic and stick to it.
- Bravery and Good base Will save are doubling up on Will saves vs. the original fighter. Plus you are granting an increasing number of will save rerolls each day (rerolls are worth about a +4 bonus). This is obviously overkill. Even Paladins with high CHA don't get this degree of Will protection. Fighters may currently have issues with Will saves but you are swinging it way too far in the other direction.
- Muscle Memory is Martial Flexibility on steroids. One of the core tenets of the feat system is that early access mechanics are very narrow and limited. Muscle Memory is way too good at getting you early access to high level feats that are currently gated by BAB. Ex. A 4th level fighter can pick up critical focus and blinding critical (a 15th level feat) for 4 minutes. This permanently blinds creatures at levels before the cleric has access to the remove blindness spell.
- I'd move Muscle Memory to start at higher level, grant fewer total uses, and rename it (the functionality has nothing to do with your body remembering how to do things).
- Thews + Bravery + the Reflex save bonus on Armor training are amping up saves far too much. These bonuses quickly become superior to the Paladin's saves (widely considered very good) while requiring no ability score investment (unlike Paladins having to invest in CHA). You effectively have base saves of 8/8/8 at level 8, before stat adjustments, cloaks, half-orc/fates favored shenanigans, and your free rerolls. The more I look at it, the more this revised fighter seems effectively immune to things that grant saving throws.
- I saw you took out Armed Bravery as an AWT option, but left Fighter's Reflexes in.
- I didn't go through the AWT and AAT options with a fine-toothed comb but none of the changes is jumping out to me as a big deal. Not sure if there's a point to the "extra skills based on BAB" options when you've bumped the fighter up to 6+INT skills.
Ignoring the absolute overkill on numerical buffs to saves, I feel like this revised fighter doesn't make the fighter any more capable than before. Sure you can do some exploity things with Muscle Memory, but you're probably not going to be any more effective out of combat than the normal fighter is. In situations where the old fighter was good (low level or very straightforward combats) this new fighter is going to be even better. In situations where the old fighter was bad, this one doesn't really pick up the slack.
A few things that stick out to me:
...
- Inquisitor style feat switching and Martial Flexibility are attempting to address similar issues and have both thematic and mechanical overlap. There is no reason why your revised fighter needs both. Choose one "flexible feats" mechanic and stick to it.
- Bravery and Good base Will save are doubling up on Will saves vs. the original fighter. Plus you are granting an increasing number of will save rerolls each day (rerolls are worth about a +4 bonus). This is obviously overkill. Even Paladins with high CHA don't get this degree of Will protection. Fighters may currently have issues with Will saves but you are swinging it way too far in the other direction.
- Muscle Memory is Martial Flexibility on steroids. One of the core tenets of the feat system is that early access mechanics are very narrow and limited. Muscle Memory is way too good at getting you early access to high level feats that are currently gated by BAB. Ex. A 4th level fighter can pick up critical focus and blinding critical (a 15th level feat) for 4 minutes. This permanently blinds creatures at levels before the cleric has access to the remove blindness spell.
- I'd move Muscle Memory to start at higher level, grant fewer total uses, and rename it (the functionality has nothing to do with your body remembering how to do things).
- Thews + Bravery + the Reflex save bonus on Armor training are amping up saves far too much. These bonuses quickly become superior to the Paladin's saves (widely considered very good) while requiring no ability score investment (unlike Paladins having to invest in CHA). You effectively have base saves of 8/8/8 at level 8, before stat adjustments, cloaks, half-orc/fates favored shenanigans, and your free rerolls. The more I look at it, the more this revised fighter seems effectively immune to things that grant saving throws.
- I saw you took out Armed Bravery as an AWT option, but left Fighter's Reflexes in.
- I didn't go through the AWT and AAT options with
Thank you for your feedback.
I am going to go take a look at some things with this in mind and see what changes to make.
One question I do have is that exactly where in the Out of Combat area does this fighter fall down.
I had a few thoughts but I wonder what yours are.
- Long distance travel due to no in class access to things like teleport/windwalk.
- Dispelling due to no in class access to something like Dispel Magic/Spell Sunder, unless you are a dwarf of course.
- Lack of ability to deal with intermediate obstacles such as cliffs, or castle walls via abilities such as D-door, Flight, or some other travel mechanism.
- Basically he lacks the ability to have the right spell, "App for that". I am finding it difficult to scale him without spells or abilities that emulate spells such as a Barbarians Rage powers.
Now I did want him to be virtually immune to things that have saves and have better saves than a paladin/superstitious human or tengu barbarian, but you are the second person who has objected about the saving throw numbers so I will go back to the drawing board and run some numbers.
Thank you again!
Edit: Frustratingly enough the Google drive preview page breaks are refusing to cooperate. So please for better formatting goodness look at the document via clicking the open with google docs button. Sorry for the inconvenience.
One question I do have is that exactly where in the Out of Combat area does this fighter fall down.
I had a few thoughts but I wonder what yours are.
Long distance travel due to no in class access to things like teleport/windwalk.
Dispelling due to no in class access to something like Dispel Magic/Spell Sunder, unless you are a dwarf of course.
Lack of ability to deal with intermediate obstacles such as cliffs, or castle walls via abilities such as D-door, Flight, or some other travel mechanism.
Basically he lacks the ability to have the right spell, "App for that". I am finding it difficult to scale him without spells or abilities that emulate spells such as a Barbarians Rage powers.
Fighters tend to "fall down" everywhere outside of combat right now unless you specifically build to avoid it. 6+INT skills will help a lot there, but won't make up for the built in mechanical options some other classes have.
What you add is really about what you feel fits Fighters thematically and can naturally work within the system. I personally feel like the fighter options don't have to be as flashy or as effective as the spellcaster options, but they should exist. Its up to you how far you want to push towards the "supernatural" fighter.
For example to address your list ->
- Fighters could gain free non-animal companion steeds at each city they visit, improving in type as he gains levels until it can fly or even teleport. These steeds could be on loan and not inclined to participate in combat.
- Fighters could be allowed to take the Shatterspell feat regardless of race.
- You could give climb and swim skill unlocks for free, include a system for calling in favors from allies (say a local group of Rocs), or simply accept certain movement modes as spellcaster niches.
- Although it can be difficult to work out new mechanics, its possible to grant mundane characters abilities that provide equivalent functionality to spells without feeling like carbon copies. For example, one fighter option could be to have superior camp fortification skills. To the extent that it always takes you only 30 mins to build a camp and your camp provides a protective enclosure on par with (or superior to) the Tiny Hut spell.
I don't think having a class be immune to all things that allow saves is good for the health of the game. That said, if that's your goal you've done a good job making it be a bonus for sticking with Fighter all the way.
Good to have some free house rules and fighters stuff. ;)
Thanks but one thing is that with the rerolls as written this fighter basically is immune to anything that offers a save. I think I will modify it to reduce the number of rerolls and add a spell sunder mechanic.
FOr bonus feats: Change the language: As long as the fighter meets any other non-feat prerequisites, any bonus feats automatically upgrade to their Improved or Greater versions, if applicable.
Being able to change only their LAST TAKEN feat is...very strange. I would simply make it a floating extra feat and take it outside the loop of permanent feats.
Essentially, it's a Muscle Memory with no time limit.
Muscle Memory is a decent variation of martial versatility, no issues.
POSSIBLY...you may want to, instead of all good saves at level 1 and encouraging a 1 level dip, keep the original good saves and make Bravery +1 to all saves, thereby increasing the cost of a dip while basically giving the exact same benefit.
Since you are already giving +1 to all saves/4 levels through the other trainings, this would simplify matters greatly.
Armor Training: Make the increase to dex a dodge bonus. There's no other class that requires a high ability score to actually make use of class features like the fighter. THe closest example is a monk, and they just GET their class bonus, they don't need a 22 Dex to make use of it. IN essence, the less armor the fighter has, the more useless this bonus is.
You could also simply make it Armor Specialist for all armors instead, and be done with it. This would make it very similar to the Rage Power that grants Nat AC.
at level 6, introduce the reroll mechanic, and apply it to all saves. You don't need Thews of Steel.
Advanced Armor Training: Remember, the scaling of the Armor Training is a level 3 effect. The fighter shouldn't have to give up an advance on it anymore then a barb gives up advancing his other rage powers to take a new one.
Simply give them another AAT feat at the appropriate levels.
YOu keep Weapon Training at level 5, meaning the fighter still has no damage bonus at level 1, unlike all other martial classes.
I advise absolutely ignoring the 'lesser progression' of Weapon Training. Simply have the fighter gain +1/4 levels, and add another weapon group every 4 levels, same bonus. It won't imbalance anything. At levels 9, 13, and 17, give an AWT bonus feat.
Level 19 capstone - Make sure it stacks with Stalwart and Armor DR Training. Gaining DR 5/- at level 19 is dumb. It's the Armor Training Capstone, obviously, and he should actually be getting DR 1/- per point of armor training level.
Seriously. WHY is he suddenly gain 5 pts of dr at the same time his AT bonus also hits +5?
Level 20 capstone - The capstone BLATANTLY favors weapons with a high threat range. Gaining 1 multiplier is huge for an 18-20 threat weapon.
I would have all weapons become either 19-20 x3 weapons (equal to a falcata) or 18-20 x2 weapons at level 17. Thus, all weapons become equal. THEN at 20 you can increase the multiplier by +1 and treat all weapons absolutely equally. If they are using a falcata already, just refund the feat to them.
========================
Where are your movement options?
Skill points? (Done. No problems with 6) Skill bonuses? (Didn't see any bonuses to skills.)
Out of combat options?
Recovery/healing options?
Any warlord/marshal options?
Leadership options?
Are your capstones equivalent to 9th level spells? ---No.
Defenses and immunities? - All good saves, +5. mmm.
Do you have a feats update or rewrite? -Not really, save that one Bonus Feat.
================
You have tons of empty levels. No, really.
1) Stop treating bonus feats as a class feature. Treat them like spells, a 'seperate thing'. Casters are deprived if they only get spells for a level. Well, martials are deprived if they only get a bonus feat for a level.
2) Stop treating an advance of a class feature as a class feature. Do Paladins treat Charisma raises at later levels as +1 Saves? no. Do Barbs treat +1 Superstition raises as class features? No. Do casters treat +1 caster level as class features? no.
3) Your formatting is good, but misaimed because you're treating advances of low level class features as higher level class features.
It should be more like this:
1) Bonus Versatile Feat (unlimited duration swap), Muscle Memory, Bonus feats (1, +1/even level)
2) Bravery (+1, +1/4 levels)
3) Armor Training (+1, +1/4 levels, + MOvement)
4) Thews of Steel
5) Weapon Training (+1, +1/4 levels)
6) ????
7) Advanced Armor Training bonus feat
8) ????
9) Advanced Weapon Training Bonus feat
10) ????
11) AAT Bonus feat
12) ???
13) AWT bonus feat
14) ???
15) AAT bonus feat
16) ???
17) Mastery of Weapons (19-20 x3), AWT Bonus feat
18) ????
19) Armor Training Capstone, AAT Bonus feat
20) Weapon Training Capstone (Confirm all crits) + ???
In short, you've got 7 completely dead levels.
Really, the Advanced Training feats shouldn't be on there any more then A wizard specialist's school bonus spells are on there...which would mean you actually have 10 DEAD LEVELS.
Yeah.
I'd expand your Bravery to all saves, and go back to 1 or 2 Good saves as base. Fort and Reflex are the most logical.
Change Thews of Steel to be something that deals with BONUSES to skills, or some form of recovery option.
Make sure he only ignores pre-reqs for combat feats.
You're going to need a feat re-write. Especially for any feats affected by the Versatile feat with the auto upgrade.
---------------
How well does your Fighter do the martial roles?
The Roles are designed thusly:
Champion: You are picked to take down the big boss X. How good are you at doing it?
This role caters to Nova tactics, offensive power, and good defenses to defy a powerful enemy. It maps to Str.
The key feat here would be Power Attack.
Master: Can you do something? How good are you at doing it? Can you train others or improve yourself somehow? Are you rewarded for being intelligent? Can you measure a foe and overcome him?
This role caters to teachers, jacks of all trades, skill focused builds, and classes that reward high int skills, skill at arms instead of stats-at-arms, and can do things in game to improve the character beyond class features. You should be able to do all sorts of combat maneuvers beyond just attacking, and do them well.
It maps to Int.
The key feat here would be Expertise, ideally.
Bodyguard/Sentinel: The enemy is coming, and you have to guard against him. How good are you at it?
This role caters to high skill mods in Perception, durability, high and alternate senses, alertness, and helping others.
It maps to WIs.
The Key feat here would be alternate senses of some kind, like BLind Fighting.
Hunter: You need to find an enemy/monster and take him down.
This role focuses on Stealth, tracking, endurance, rapid movement, survival, ranged attacks/sniping, sneak attacks, infiltration /bypassing defenses, and the ability to kill quickly. Think a spec ops warrior, no spells.
It maps to Dex.
The key feat here would be TWF, Deadly Aim, or COmbat Reflexes.
Soldier: You and 1000 of your closest friends and neighbors have to kill something.
This role focuses on teamwork with allies, mass combat efficiency, defenses and durability, endurance, training/retraining, constant and reliable DPR, and tactics.
It maps to Con, and is the least stat dependent role.
The key feats here would be Teamwork feats, Die Hard, or Endurance.
Warlord/Marshal: You have to lead that army of 1000 soldiers to kill something, as the first step on your road to Empire.
This role is about buffing allies, willpower, executing strategic and tactical maneuvers, providing morale, rallying/gathering troops in the first place, training large numbers of people, and having the social skills to mix with other leaders of men and hold their own and more.
It maps to Charisma.
The key feat here would be Leadership.
=============== Your fighter does better on Champion role because of much better saves, and has Versatility on feats for some customization against a foe.
If you make the changes with Advanced Feats above, he's better on the Master role, because he can change his long duration feat layouts. However, he has no skill bonuses.
Also has no edge in training for long term improvements.
No specific Sentinel features except class skill Percept. Certainly no skill bonuses.
Stealth as class skill means marginally better at Hunter role.
Given that he can change one long duration feat to a Teamwork feat, that means he can pick up the key feat of any large unit the same day. Also, better saves means better defenses. Does Soldier REALLY well.
Nothing for the Commander side of things at all.
First thank you for your feedback!
FOr bonus feats: Change the language: As long as the fighter meets any other non-feat prerequisites, any bonus feats automatically upgrade to their Improved or Greater versions, if applicable.
I phrased it the way I did to make sure it was understood that the fighter retains all feats selected via bonus feat and gains the improved and greater versions when applicable, along with being able to do the same for styles. I belive your phrasing might indicate to some that the fighter loses the earlier feat and instead gains the appropriate greater or improved version. I agree my current write up is stilted in phrasing and will work on it.
Being able to change only their LAST TAKEN feat is...very strange. I would simply make it a floating extra feat and take it outside the loop of permanent feats.
Essentially, it's a Muscle Memory with no time limit.
I cribbed this from inquisitor and in my playtests so far it has been working well, however I do agree it has some overlap with muscle memory.
Muscle Memory is a decent variation of martial versatility, no issues.
Thanks I like it myself now that the spell perfection loop-hole is closed.
POSSIBLY...you may want to, instead of all good saves at level 1 and encouraging a 1 level dip, keep the original good saves and make Bravery +1 to all saves, thereby increasing the cost of a dip while basically giving the exact same benefit.
Since you are already giving +1 to all saves/4 levels through the other trainings, this would simplify matters greatly.
I think you have something here as when I remove the rerolls Bravery, the reflex addition to armor training and, Thews of Steel all just do the same thing.
I have run some math and to be equivalent to a Paladin or a Superstitious barbarian he needs good saves + a bonus, so I think I am going to collapse the features into one but leave the good saves. I really do not mind people dipping and putting back class features.
Armor Training: Make the increase to dex a dodge bonus. There's no other class that requires a high ability score to actually make use of class features like the fighter. THe closest example is a monk, and they just GET their class bonus, they don't need a 22 Dex to make use of it. IN essence, the less armor the fighter has, the more useless this bonus is.
You could also simply make it Armor Specialist for all armors instead, and be done with it. This would make it very similar to the Rage Power that grants Nat AC.
I think I am going to do some playtesting with armor training as is and see how it works out. I like that it incentivises the fighter to wear heavy armor.
at level 6, introduce the reroll mechanic, and apply it to all saves. You don't need Thews of Steel.
I am actually after consolidating the save bonus going to add the reroll mechanic starting at 4th.
Advanced Armor Training: Remember, the scaling of the Armor Training is a level 3 effect. The fighter shouldn't have to give up an advance on it anymore then a barb gives up advancing his other rage powers to take a new one.
Simply give them another AAT feat at the appropriate levels.
If it is unclear I apologize but I had meant it that the fighter gained advanced armor training in addition to armor training scaling not instead of.
YOu keep Weapon Training at level 5, meaning the fighter still has no damage bonus at level 1, unlike all other martial classes.
This gives me something to think about, my thanks.
I advise absolutely ignoring the 'lesser progression' of Weapon Training. Simply have the fighter gain +1/4 levels, and add another weapon group every 4 levels, same bonus. It won't imbalance anything. At levels 9, 13, and 17, give an AWT bonus feat.
Done and done.
Level 19 capstone - Make sure it stacks with Stalwart and Armor DR Training. Gaining DR 5/- at level 19 is dumb. It's the Armor Training Capstone, obviously, and he should actually be getting DR 1/- per point of armor training level.
Seriously. WHY is he suddenly gain 5 pts of dr at the same time his AT bonus also hits +5?
It does not stack with anything however the advanced armor training does scale to give an equivalent at 19th.
I will run some numbers to see how this would work out.
Level 20 capstone - The capstone BLATANTLY favors weapons with a high threat range. Gaining 1 multiplier is huge for an 18-20 threat weapon.
I would have all weapons become either 19-20 x3 weapons (equal to a falcata) or 18-20 x2 weapons at level 17. Thus, all weapons become equal. THEN at 20 you can increase the multiplier by +1 and treat all weapons absolutely equally. If they are using a falcata already, just refund the feat to them.
Made some changes feel free to give feedback.
Where are your movement options?
If you mean something like pounce then there is nothing yet in class. Perhaps I will add an advanced armor training option, I am just afraid of making something a "must have". If you mean a speed increase there is armor training to remove penalties and an advanced armor training option for greater base speed.
Skill points? (Done. No problems with 6) Skill bonuses? (Didn't see any bonuses to skills.)
Nothing yet besides increasing base skill points per level.
Out of combat options?
Recovery/healing options?
Only skills and what feats can grant and for HP recovery added something, please feel free to comment.
Any warlord/marshal options?
Leadership options?
What do you mean by warlord/marshal options?
I do have inspiring confidence, weapon sacrifice, weapon sacrifice, and armorer confidence. I would love more options please feel free to put them forward.
I am honestly not fond of the leadership feat and similar effects and I ban it in my games. This is for a home game so I left it out on purpose.
Are your capstones equivalent to 9th level spells? ---No.
Nope, but without a drastic restructuring of the game I doubt any martial ability will.
Defenses and immunities? - All good saves, +5. mmm.
Yep, this makes his saves about equal to paladin/superstitious barb, which was a design goal.
Do you have a feats update or rewrite? -Not really, save that one Bonus Feat.
No rewrites yet.
================
You have tons of empty levels. No, really.1) Stop treating bonus feats as a class feature. Treat them like spells, a 'seperate thing'. Casters are deprived if they only get spells for a level. Well, martials are deprived if they only get a bonus feat for a level.
2) Stop treating an advance of a class feature as a class feature. Do Paladins treat Charisma raises at later levels as +1 Saves? no. Do Barbs treat +1 Superstition raises as class features? No. Do casters treat +1 caster level as class features? no.
3) Your formatting is good, but misaimed because you're treating advances of low level class features as higher level class features.
It should be more like this:
1) Bonus Versatile Feat (unlimited duration swap), Muscle Memory, Bonus feats (1, +1/even level)
2) Bravery (+1, +1/4 levels)
3) Armor Training (+1, +1/4 levels, + MOvement)
4) Thews of Steel
5) Weapon Training (+1, +1/4 levels)
6) ????
7) Advanced Armor Training bonus feat
8) ????
9) Advanced Weapon Training Bonus feat
10) ????
11) AAT Bonus feat
12) ???
13) AWT bonus feat
14) ???
15) AAT bonus feat
16) ???
17) Mastery of Weapons (19-20 x3), AWT Bonus feat
18) ????
19) Armor Training Capstone, AAT Bonus feat
20) Weapon Training Capstone (Confirm all crits) + ???In short, you've got 7 completely dead levels.
Really, the Advanced Training feats shouldn't be on there any more then A wizard specialist's school bonus spells are on there...which would mean you actually have 10 DEAD LEVELS.Yeah.
I see what you mean. I made some changes to adjust.
I'd expand your Bravery to all saves, and go back to 1 or 2 Good saves as base. Fort and Reflex are the most logical.
Change Thews of Steel to be something that deals with BONUSES to skills, or some form of recovery option.
I am going to leave the all good saves but I have made some other changes.
Make sure he only ignores pre-reqs for combat feats.
I am very against only limiting the fighter abilities to only combat feats.
You're going to need a feat re-write. Especially for any feats affected by the Versatile feat with the auto upgrade.
Not going to be doing a big feat rewrite, this is the most work for rewriting I am going to do for this campaign.
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How well does your Fighter do the martial roles?The Roles are designed thusly:
Champion: You are picked to take down the big boss X. How good are you at doing it?
This role caters to Nova tactics, offensive power, and good defenses to defy a powerful enemy. It maps to Str.
The key feat here would be Power Attack.Master: Can you do something? How good are you at doing it? Can you train others or improve yourself somehow? Are you rewarded for being intelligent? Can you measure a foe and overcome him?
This role caters to teachers, jacks of all trades, skill focused builds, and classes that reward high int skills, skill at arms instead of stats-at-arms, and can do things in game to improve the character beyond class features. You should be able to do all sorts of combat maneuvers beyond just attacking, and do them well.
It maps to Int.
The key feat here would be Expertise, ideally.Bodyguard/Sentinel: The enemy is coming, and you have to guard against him. How good are you at it?
This role caters to high skill mods in Perception, durability, high and alternate senses, alertness, and helping others.
It maps to WIs.
The Key feat here would be alternate senses of some kind, like BLind Fighting.Hunter: You need to find an enemy/monster and take him down.
This role focuses on Stealth, tracking, endurance, rapid movement, survival, ranged attacks/sniping, sneak attacks, infiltration /bypassing defenses, and the ability to kill quickly. Think a spec ops warrior, no spells.
It maps to Dex.
The key feat here would be TWF, Deadly Aim, or COmbat Reflexes.Soldier: You and 1000 of your closest friends and neighbors have to kill something.
This role focuses on teamwork with allies, mass combat efficiency, defenses and durability, endurance, training/retraining, constant and reliable DPR, and tactics.
It maps to Con, and is the least stat dependent role.
The key feats here would be Teamwork feats, Die Hard, or Endurance.Warlord/Marshal: You have to lead that army of 1000 soldiers to kill something, as the first step on your road to Empire.
This role is about buffing allies, willpower, executing strategic and tactical maneuvers, providing morale, rallying/gathering troops in the first place, training large numbers of people, and having the social skills to mix with other leaders of men and hold their own and more.
It maps to Charisma.
The key feat here would be Leadership.=============== Your fighter does better on Champion role because of much better saves, and has Versatility on feats for some customization against a foe.
If you make the changes with Advanced Feats above, he's better on the Master role, because he can change his long duration feat layouts. However, he has no skill bonuses.
Also has no edge in training for long term improvements.No specific Sentinel features except class skill Percept. Certainly no skill bonuses.
Stealth as class skill means marginally better at Hunter role.
Given that he can change one long duration feat to a Teamwork feat, that means he can pick up the key feat of any large unit the same day. Also, better saves means better defenses. Does Soldier REALLY well.
Nothing for the Commander side of things at all.
For the roles I will just say thanks for your input. That is not a normal metric I use, not saying it is bad just not familiar.
I have added a new advanced armor training option called Beyond Magic and a new weapon training option called Steel is Supreme.
Just to be clear new version uploaded and thanks again.
I use Roles for the simple reason - Why would I want to play this class?
I want to be the best swordsman in the land! (Champion role)
I want to be the intelligent fighter who can do everything! (master role)
I want to defend the rest of my party well. (sentinel role)
I want to be able to seek out and kill my enemies. Shades of Splinter Cell! (Hunter role)
I want to be an ex-army grunt, or build an army of skilled soldiers. (Soldier role).
I want to be a martial leader of men! (Marshal/Warlord role).
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If you're going to expand the feats the fighter can take outside combat feats, you're probably going to need to include Qualifiers.
I called them 'training feats'. Basically, any feat that boosted a skill, movement, saves or the like was a 'training feat'.
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Ideas on recovery options: I use an x/day mechanic.
Convert hp to subdual dmg Bravery t/day = Fighter level + Fort save. If you have toughness, increase by toughness amount.
Subdual damage heals quickly, and more quickly as my fighter levels. Also, if you are magically healed, subdual damage is healed concurrently with HP dmg, so the fighter could 'double up' on healing.
as he lvelled, the Vigor effect could dispel increasingly powerful effects, sort of like a Lay on Hands for himself only, but including getting rid of magical spell effects, breaking grapples, and the like.
If the fighter is healed magically, the effect uses his fighter level instead of the caster level, if higher.
He gains double the normal healing effect from potions. (this makes potions = wands for the fighter).
All potions he drinks use his fighter level instead of the caster level if applicable (meaning, he doesn't need to use wands much or rely on casters to get some good buffs).
I also allowed second saves to throw off long duration spells and negative effects after a minute or two, and then every day.
I had a 'mundane' option where the fighter could never gain magical abilities, but got a bunch of side benefits for it.
All good saves, and a class feature that grants bonuses to all saves? The fighter's base saves end up at +17 each. Save bonuses in class features are for classes that have a have poor saves. Completely unneccessary.
You could delay muscle memory, or you could get rid of the 1st level bonus feat. Perhaps maintaining this free feat requires a swift action every turn. For awhile at least.
He's giving the fighter the martial equivalent of a monk's training, because the fighter has NO magical abilities.
I'm okay with all good saves. A completely mundane character should have an edge.
The +5 to all saves is still not as good as a barbarian, nor likely as good as a paladin. The barb can reach +13 with Human FCB, and the paladin is basically uncapped. As it is fixed at +5, and brings the fighter back to par or superior saves he had in 1e, there's nothing wrong with it.
I LIKE the idea of him being able to swap a single long term feat with no duration. he might want to make a list of feats that can advance up the schema, however. Whirlwind Attack isn't an advance like Greater Feint is, flavorwise.
Swapping short term feats is a short term buff, for all intents and purposes. A different animal.
The barbarian has the same base saves as a fighter. You're talking about the barbarian choosing specific options as opposed to other options - not an automatic class feature. And if you're talking about superstition, that has conditions attached to it.
Anyone else have any specific comments on either the house rules or the Fighter rewrite?
Anyone else. Comments on the house rules are appreciated as well.