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Here's an odd question: How do you handle dual damage resistance, such as the Wendigo's DR/Cold Iron and Magic, or other creatures that have a similar two-tiered DR.
The question comes in because once you have a magic item that is at least +3, it is able to overcome cold iron damage resistance.
1. Does that mean then any item that is +3 would overcome a Wendigo's DR?
2. Or does DR/Cold Iron and Magic mean you need to be +1 AND also Cold Iron?
3. Would in that case a +4 or higher weapon be considered both Cold Iron and Magic?
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Under universal monster rules:
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
So if you have a high enough magic weapon to overcome material needs, you are covered. But that doesn't take care of alignment needs until +5
+1 and cold iron will overcome. +3 will overcome
Here's an odd question: How do you handle dual damage resistance, such as the Wendigo's DR/Cold Iron and Magic, or other creatures that have a similar two-tiered DR.
The question comes in because once you have a magic item that is at least +3, it is able to overcome cold iron damage resistance.
1. Does that mean then any item that is +3 would overcome a Wendigo's DR?
2. Or does DR/Cold Iron and Magic mean you need to be +1 AND also Cold Iron?
3. Would in that case a +4 or higher weapon be considered both Cold Iron and Magic?
1) Yes.
2) This would 'also' overcome the DR, not 'NEED' to be. It is the 'default', if you don't have a +3 weapon.
3) Since +4 is higher then +3, it would also penetrate the DR.
The question is because the Wendigo (as the example in hand) is a CR 17 monster. Other monsters (like Black Magga) with the dual-resistance aspects also tend to have high CRs. So it is more than likely you will see someone with +3 weapons or greater when facing these monsters.
In addition, there are a couple of magic items in the AP that has these monsters that are specifically Cold Iron and Magic, suggesting these items might be the weapon expected to deal with those foes (though fighting an ancient squid-monster or the embodiment of cannibalism with a throwing dagger might be a tad odd).
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the "+3 weapon overcomes cold iron and silver" is inclusive with "+1 weapon is magic". To bypass DR/X and Y you need both X and Y or there is no benefit. Your +3 weapon is both X and Y (cold iron and magic), therefore it overcomes the DR. A +1 cold iron weapon also overcomes the DR, but a non-magic cold iron weapon or a non-cold iron +1 or +2 weapon does not.
This is part of why I ignore the plus-equivalent bypass rules. It mucks things up and is largely unneeded. Just bring back DR/+X instead.
EDIT: In response to "the AP gives a weapon that is cold iron and magic", many adventure writers, and in fact many people who regularly play Pathfinder, don't even know of this rule. Many others (myself included), although aware of the rule, chose to ignore it.
The most common example of dual DR are liches, with Magic & Bludgeoning (which higher +'s don't help with). Some outsiders have holy and silver/cold iron.
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Armies, Ruiken. Aie, here comes 1000 arrows at me...all useless.
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Armies, Ruiken. Aie, here comes 1000 arrows at me...all useless.
While true, it's still a rather low gate. In earlier DnD they had a +X requirement, such that a powerful enough dragon couldn't even be defeated by an "army" of heroes.
As a tangential, each time I've used an army in Pathfinder (Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous) the entire army had magical swords, bows, and armor, plus cure potions and frequently a slew of special abilities, either from being monster or paladins (respectively).
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I've been disheartened by the DR rules. Powerful ancient blue dragon can't deflect any damage from creatures attacking it with magic weapons any better than it's younger adult version. Sad dragon really.
EDIT: I know off-topic of OP, but house rule the DR x/magic to DR x/+x where +x is +1 plus +1 per 6 HD? Thus a 20 HD dragon would be DR x/+4.
Just change it to DR/Adamantine to punch the scales, and you're good.
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Either of +X or adamantine could work, just depends on the feel you're going for. Really I dislike the way DR works all around and prefer a multiplier type system. This is obviously houserules territory.
Types are:
instability: infinite effect (any damage kills)
frailty: doubles effect
vulnerability: +50% effect
resistance: half effect
protection: reduces effect to 1 (minimum effect)
immunity: takes no effect
against of - is all but exceptions
exception of - means there is no way to bypass
Also good to note: A non-cold-iron magic weapon has to have an enhancement bonus of +3 to count as cold iron for purposes of bypassing DR. A magic weapon that is merely +3 equivalent, such as a +2 frost weapon, does not count as cold iron for such purposes.
The only DR that counts 'equivalents' is DR/Epic, revised after Mythic Adventures. Enhancement bonuses bypassing material DR was made so that there was a reason to buy permanent Enhancement bonuses, instead of a +1/+9 weapon with Greater Magic Weapon tacked on top.
@Das Bier: I looked through those rules and don't see anything stating that, for instance, a +2 Flaming Burst Bane weapon wouldn't overcome all types of damage reduction (outside of that from blunt/slashing/piercing weapons).
Nor is there a FAQ stating that either.
Where did you find this information on only DR/Epic being equivalents.
@Das Bier: I looked through those rules and don't see anything stating that, for instance, a +2 Flaming Burst Bane weapon wouldn't overcome all types of damage reduction (outside of that from blunt/slashing/piercing weapons).
Nor is there a FAQ stating that either.
Where did you find this information on only DR/Epic being equivalents.
It does very well state that.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
You have to have an enhancement bonus that high. A +2 weapon flaming weapon only has a +2 enhancement bonus. IT is just priced the same as a a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus, it doesn't actually have a +3 enhancement bonus.
The rules on DR/Epic are found in Mythic Adventures.
DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
@ Jeraa, yup that's right.
Interestingly, a +2 keen flaming burst bane weapon (+6 equiv) will overcome DR/epic, but won't overcome DR/silver, DR/cold iron, or DR/adamantine.
Although, if you can afford that, you might as well get it in one of those metals, or just skip an ability or two, and make the enhancement bonus +3 or +4.
The chart states "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent" (emphasis mine). This is from the Paizo website.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/glossary.html#appendix-1-sp ecial-abilities
@ Tangent101
I guess I take that to mean something like, "A weapon with this enhancement bonus is equivalent to this material for purposes of bypassing DR," rather than, "A weapon whose enhancement bonus and special abilities are equivalent to this total bonus counts as this material for purposes of bypassing DR."
Just above the chart, the text does specifically say "enhancement bonus," which is how I arrived at my interpretation.
Perhaps it's FAQ-worthy? The question would have to be written concisely to make it a good candidate.
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Something like this?
Is the Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent to overcome damage resistance for cold iron/silver, adamantine, and alignment the numerical bonus for the weapon (with a +5 weapon able to overcome most non-Epic types of damage resistance)?
Or does enchantment bonuses for weapon enhancements such as Bane, Flaming Burst, or Vorpal work toward ignoring Damage Resistance (with, for example, a +1 Vorpal Weapon being able to overcome cold iron/silver, adamantine, alignment-based, and Epic damage resistance)?
@ Tangent101
That seems pretty clear to me, with a few tweaks. In one spot, you have "enchantment" instead of enhancement, and there are several instances of "damage resistance" that should be "damage reduction." Also, maybe say, "weapon special abilities such as..." Instead of, "weapon enhancements such as..."
And, I suppose it might help to reference the chart and/or the CRB section or page #.
Finally, It may be worth a quick search to see if it's been faq'd or addressed already elsewhere. (I haven't done that myself.)
You only have to compare the wording.
The chart only uses Enhancement bonuses, it never uses Enhancement Equivalents.
The DR/Epic rewrite Specifically makes the example of equivalents.
Furthermore, the FAQ on the Epic rewrite mentions the difference between enhancements and enhancement equivalents, since it brings up Bane.
In short, nobody even considered the 'equivalent' point until DR/Epic was rewritten to allow it as a type, then people started coming out of the woodwork wondering if the rules that had been in existence for almost ten years had been changed, too.
No, they were put in place so that people had a reason to have enhancement bonuses on their weapons. In 3.5, straight enhancement bonuses were meaningless EXCEPT for the original DR/Epic, which required a +6 weapon to pass.
There was no REASON to have a +5 weapon. You just cast Greater magic Weapon, and had a +1/+9 weapon, and wound up with something better...so, advantage to casters who could do that.
By giving permanent enhancements the ability to bypass DR/Material, you at once got rid of the requirement for a golf bag of weapons, AND you devalued Greater Magic Weapon, since it couldn't do that.
Um... I had a character with a +4 rapier because of constant use of Weapon Expertise so to avoid being hit. Sometimes you need a better to-hit, not fancy add-ons. Just because you ran fighter types for combat instead of rogues or the like doesn't mean everyone did.
So GMW a +4 enhancement on your rapier, and go +1 Keen Defender Guardian.
What do you lose? Nothing. THat's what 3.5 was like. what do you gain? Keen Defender Guardian.
Or Flaming Holy.
or Furious Impact.
Etc etc etc. You have a +4 weapon, and I've a +4/+3 weapon. who comes out ahead here?
i.e. the rule was put in so you would have a reason other then just TH/DMG (which GMW addressed for no cost) to have enhancements.
Das Bier, it doesn't say "Weapon Enhancement Bonuses" it says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent"
This is the same language for overcoming Epic damage resistance. Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent. You cannot have a non-artifact weapon that is +6 to hit.
And you're seriously saying that you can have a weapon capable of overcoming Epic Damage Resistance, but bounces off of Adamantine or Alignment Damage Resistance?
Das Bier, it doesn't say "Weapon Enhancement Bonuses" it says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent"
This is the same language for overcoming Epic damage resistance. Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent. You cannot have a non-artifact weapon that is +6 to hit.
And you're seriously saying that you can have a weapon capable of overcoming Epic Damage Resistance, but bounces off of Adamantine or Alignment Damage Resistance?
YOur argument was already answered above, Tangent. I also explained why. Equivalent means equivalent to Material X, not enhancement-equivalent, which simply did not even exist as a concept until Mythic Adventures. The chart itself refers to Enhancement, you are conflating the title of the chart with what you want to read. It's not going to fly.
Or, in other words, YES, Adamantine is equivalent to a Weapon Enhancement of +4, NOT Yes, adamantine is equivalent to +4 of weapon enhancement equivalents. You're missing an extra 'equivalent' in the title.
EVERYONE knows the new DR/Epic was different from what enhancement bonuses do. THey went out of their way to say so, and provide examples. Trying to say the ten year old SRD chart says the same is just wishful thinking. You won't get ANY support on that.
And you are absolutely 100% wrong on the +6 weapon. A +2 Furious Bane(x) weapon is +6 in the hands of a raging barbarian against its bane enemies. a +4 Bane X weapon is +6 vs X in anyone's hands. It was the classic method of bypassing DR/Epic before level 21 in the 3.5 rules.
Technically speaking, a +1 Bane X weapon with GMW cast at 20th level is a +7 Weapon against X creature.
I.e. there's plenty of ways to get +6 if you really want or need it.
I have no idea on PFS. I'm not sure if PFS uses Mythic at all, and I'm pretty sure you never get high enough level to fight something with DR/EPic, so kinda moot.