why is it that bolt aces hate repeating .....

[Bob Bob Bob]

Remember, bolt aces are incidental to the discussion. We're discussing how repeating crossbows suck. Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

[graystone]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

LOL It's pretty clear they suck. All we're doing now is quibbling over how much, or to what degree, they suck. ;)

[Gulthor]

Squiggit wrote:

To be fair, unless you need signature deed you do that with a regular gunslinger too.

Though in the right group you can get some mileage out of distracting shot, especially if you're TWF so you throw away one of your crappy offhand attacks first.

Actually, you have to take your attacks in order: main-hand, off-hand, highest BAB to lowest.

[Gulthor]

graystone wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

LOL It's pretty clear they suck. All we're doing now is quibbling over how much, or to what degree, they suck. ;)

Well, they're actually pretty great for a Bolt Ace's "My First Crossbow", but as soon as the BA can afford to pick up Rapid Reload, they're outclassed.

And anyone else is better off spending a feat on Rapid Reload than they are spending a feat on EWP (R.C.)

[graystone]

Gulthor wrote:

graystone wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

LOL It's pretty clear they suck. All we're doing now is quibbling over how much, or to what degree, they suck. ;)

Well, they're actually pretty great for a Bolt Ace's "My First Crossbow", but as soon as the BA can afford to pick up Rapid Reload, they're outclassed.

And anyone else is better off spending a feat on Rapid Reload than they are spending a feat on EWP (R.C.)

Yes, they have a VERY narrow use just for the bolt ace's starting levels. The actual BEST use for them is to take a hand repeating crossbow at 1st and then sell it off for a Masterwork underwater crossbow + profit once you have the Rapid Reload feat.

[zainale]

Firebug wrote:

Is it just me, or does rapid reload not apply to a repeating crossbow, at all.

The feat says "crossbow(hand, light, heavy)" and makes no mention of "repeating crossbow(light, heavy)". Not only that, it requires "weapon proficiency(crossbow type)" or "exotic weapon proficiency (firearm)". A repeating crossbow would have needed to say exotic, since they are clearly making the distinction for firearms.

Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).

--
proficiency
The state or quality of being proficient; competence.

-Crossbow Maven

A bolt ace is proficient with all crossbows instead of all firearms.

Crossbow Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a bolt ace can select one specific type of crossbow, such as hand crossbow or heavy crossbow. <--- examples
--

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Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Remember, bolt aces are incidental to the discussion. We're discussing how repeating crossbows suck. Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

no the thread was created so someone could explain why people hated the repeating crossbow. not a rag on the weapon. because i kept getting responses like "Repeating crossbows are worthless, and worth less to the bolt ace than any other option." with out getting a reason why

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Rub-Eta asked how one could dual wield crossbows. i answered with taking a 2-4 lvl dip in alchemist for the "grow extra arms". the other ones were possibilities that had tail options.
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[Bob Bob Bob]

zainale wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Remember, bolt aces are incidental to the discussion. We're discussing how repeating crossbows suck. Well, technically whether they suck, but I think it's established by now.

no the thread was created so someone could explain why people hated the repeating crossbow. not a rag on the weapon. because i kept getting responses like "Repeating crossbows are worthless, and worth less to the bolt ace than any other option." with out getting a reason why

Well, now you have a reason why. They suck. Only two classes get proficiency (that I can think of, I might have missed one) and every class that isn't proficient is better off taking Rapid Reload (light crossbow) and always reloading as a free action. 5 round case lasts a battle if (and only if) you only shoot 1 bolt/round or combats last 1 round (maybe 2). If you ever fire 3 bolts/round you'd need to reload after every round or come up short. If you build for crossbows you go for Crossbow Mastery and then a repeating crossbow is just a heavier version of the normal crossbow.

The problem they're suggesting with Rapid Reload has to do with the part at the beginning:

Rapid Reload wrote:

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.

You'll notice that "repeating" isn't on that list, therefore you can't chose it.

As for growing a second arm to dual-wield, Rub-Eta was responding to someone who said that one of the "pros" of Bolt Ace is "can dual wield without munchkinning". Two levels of alchemist for a second hand... has nothing to do with a Bolt Ace, and lets anyone dual-wield crossbows. Or firearms. Or pretty much anything that requires two hands. How is dipping two levels of alchemist a "special feature" of the Bolt Ace?

[graystone]

To add to Bob Bob Bob's post:

#1 Yes, repeaters suck and are only useful for a few levels until the PC's gain the feats to make free reloads, The rub, of course, is that as expensive as they are, only the bolt ace can benefit from it's limited usefulness. Afterwards they're just heavier, slower, unable to be used underwater and the bolts cost twice as much. Or to quote Bob Bob Bob, "They suck."

#2 Yep, Rapid Reload isn't an official option for the repeater. I don't think allowing it would alter the repeater's suckiness. The fact is there is no listing for what the reduction would be for repeaters as neither the feat nor the weapon list it. As such, it's not allowed.

#3 "can dual wield without munchkinning": The non-"munchkinning" way is crossbow mastery and two heavy wrist launchers. No extra arm, no juggling multiple crossbows, no weapon cords, ect.

zainale - "not a rag on the weapon.": That's impossible to do IN a thread about repeating crossbows. They are just bad overall and you SHOULD "rag on the weapon" as it's worthy of scorn. For most PC's in most situations, it's the worst option.

On Rapid Reload, please give me a quote of what the reload time is for a repeating crossbow with rapid reload. Every weapon usable with the feat has a new listed reload time. For instance "free action (for a hand or light crossbow)" or "a spear-sling is a standard action (a move action if the wielder has the Rapid Reload feat".

Note that repeating crossbows don't have a note, like the underwater crossbow, that they function as a normal crossbows or use normal crossbow proficiencies so the notes for hand, light and heavy have no bearing on repeaters.

[swoosh]

Do wrist launchers actually work with crossbow mastery? The weapon says if you're proficient with hand crossbows you're proficient with them, but they don't actually say they function like crossbows or count as crossbows.

[graystone]

swoosh wrote:

Do wrist launchers actually work with crossbow mastery? The weapon says if you're proficient with hand crossbows you're proficient with them, but they don't actually say they function like crossbows or count as crossbows.

*shrug* It fires a crossbow bolt and uses hand crossbows proficiency so I don't see a reason to say it isn't. Using a crossbow proficiency pretty much tells me it's a crossbow. It, of course, could have it's wording tightened up to make it super clear.

I'd be really confused that they made the Tube arrow shooter a crossbow but made the wrist launcher one of the other ranged categories [Bows, Firearms, Thrown, Siege Engines]. Given the options, I don't see it falling under any other group.