so being a pesh dealer ..... or a prostitute of a certain goddess is legal but not a slaver ?
maybe I am the only one that can see the irony...
any slavers are welcome at my table...along with zon kuthon torturers...and other silly professions ( In game)
and you know why ?
Because its a Game... a game that is fantasy. where you make believe what happens . And I for one wont ruin the players idea or character background because someone might get butthurt.
So you acknowledge that it is a game. Well games have rules, and playing a game means following them. One of the non-negotiable rules of the game is that evil characters are not allowed. Which means that you can't be a character who performs evil as your Nine To Five. Certain professions such as Torturer, have been explicitly banned after campaign discussion deemed them as evil. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that Slaver doesn't belong in the same bucket.
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Saying they have "some" hypothetical rights doesn't make it any less evil.Actually, if we're talking about degrees of evil, yeah, it kind of totally does. Having some (very) limited recourse is better than having none at all.
And apologies for not coddling and sweet talking slavery-apologists.You should apologize, considering this level of personal abuse is against forum rules. I mean, s#@@, I indicate in my very first post that I view the slavery in America's past is horrific, and still your first knee-jerk reaction is to call me a whitewasher. Either calm down or walk away.
It is interesting, because they feel they are arguing on the moral right, they have the right to be offensive and rude. Even people that should be enforcing this are jumping on the band wagon.
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If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.
And when you are doing everything you can to defend slavery I have every right as human being to tell you to get the f%@# out and take your tone policing with you.
You are defending, nay, justifying slavery. We have every right to be mad.
You are not entitled to soft words.
You are not entitled to us holding your hands.
You are not entitled to us using pleasantries and pleading with you.
AND YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED TO TELL US HOW WE REACT OR ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT REGARDING SUCH AN ABOMINATION THAT OFFENDS US ON EVRY LAYER OF OUR BEING.
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It is interesting, because they feel they are arguing on the moral right, they have the right to be offensive and rude. Even people that should be enforcing this are jumping on the band wagon.Saying they have "some" hypothetical rights doesn't make it any less evil.Actually, if we're talking about degrees of evil, yeah, it kind of totally does. Having some (very) limited recourse is better than having none at all.
And apologies for not coddling and sweet talking slavery-apologists.You should apologize, considering this level of personal abuse is against forum rules. I mean, s#@@, I indicate in my very first post that I view the slavery in America's past is horrific, and still your first knee-jerk reaction is to call me a whitewasher. Either calm down or walk away.
I have every g~+&%$n right to be offended and angry when dealing slavery-apologists.
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...I would debate that. In fact I would not see a single instance of slavery, fictional or otherwise that doesn't fall into eithr the D+D definition, or any civilized definition of evil.I know my opinion will spark some controversy. But there are many examples of slavery in fiction that is not evil. Wheel of Time being my primary example.
Then you have not looked hard enough... or maybe even at all. Yes, forced slavery is evil. Very very few will disagree here... and I wouldn't want to have a conversation with the ones who do. But judging every slave system based on the famous horrible ones is just plain lacking intelligence or common sense. This is no different than judging a group of people based on meeting a few of its members or hating a company because one of their supervisors was a jerk to you once. I'm not trying to defend horrible acts caused by forced slavery systems(By forced I do not include judicial based slavery but I do include slavery from war, slavery by birth and slavery by abduction). But I am trying to get across the fact that until you know all you can not judge all.
Historically, most slavery has been forced. But there has been plenty where people literally sold themselves into slavery or otherwise accepted it of their own choice and were protected by the law against mistreatment, This includesa system I know of where after a certain period of time the slave must be released... but they could choose to stay and often did. True, sometimes the level of mistreatment(really, I should say punishment here) could include things we would consider extremely harsh. But it hasn't always been the common picture people have of men and women in chains with no hope and no personal agency.
Once again, slavery has been usually, almost always, evil. But getting hot and bothered by a concept you have only experienced from the other side of the tv screen or from the pages of a book to the
Wow, slavery apologist? Really? Where do I try to make slavery look good? I'm just pointing out the truth that not every system is the same. That some may well escape immediate condemnation.
You can do your own research if you dare. And you really should before getting yourself red in the face and insulting those who just may have read more about history than yourself. It is not my job to do that for you. Trust me, you will have a better, more enriching, time doing it on your own.Life is horrible. People can be absolute monsters to each other. And some words are worth being angry at immediately. And, in most cases, you would be absolutely right. Slavery is terrible.
But seek the truth first. Then be angry at what you find. You have not earned the right to be angry at what you haven't yet learned. You just may find that not everything is at it appears at first glance.
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If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.
And when you are doing everything you can to defend slavery I have every right as human being to tell you to get the f%$& out and take your tone policing with you.
You are defending, nay, justifying slavery. We have every right to be mad.
You are not entitled to soft words.
You are not entitled to us holding your hands.
You are not entitled to us using pleasantries and pleading with you.
AND YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED TO TELL US HOW WE REACT OR ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT REGARDING SUCH AN ABOMINATION THAT OFFENDS US ON EVRY LAYER OF OUR BEING.
This is when rational thought is lost.
To convince me I am wrong, provide you best logic to convince me. Not name calling and hatred.
Hate is a circle, and if you want me to hate you back and ignore your words. Well thats the environment you are providing.
Never once did I say my opinion of slavery was moral, infact you were so upset and unwilling to look at my examples you ignored that I said I think it is immoral/ But morality is not universal, I understand that. I understand others disagree with my point and I provided the logic they would give. If you want to attack me instead of providing anothers side point so we can work together to provide a mutual understanding. Well then you have issues.
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Most times I hear verbiage like that are from folks who try to whitewash the nasty truths of American slavery.Yes, because
how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rightsIs totally whitewashing it. American slavery was brutal, and I wouldn't hesitate to call it evil.
That doesn't mean all forms of slavery are automatically the same; perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the in-Golarion form of thralldom practiced in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. That is very much slavery, but thralls do have some rights; they're automatically freed after a set period, and can even file complaints against cruel or unfair masters.
Show up with Profession (Slaver) on any PFS table I run,and you and I are going to have a discussion.You giving a barely-restrained frothing-at-the-mouth rant is not a "discussion".
No, it will be a discussion. I won't punish the player for the fact that for some reason every other PFS judge before he got to me didn't make the catch, and take the appropriate action. I will give him the chance to keep his ranks, and write in some other Profession. I will however, make a note of the character name and number, and will report said character to campaign management through the local Venture Captain, if he either goes back on his word or refuses to make the change to a legal profession.
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Saying they have "some" hypothetical rights doesn't make it any less evil.Actually, if we're talking about degrees of evil, yeah, it kind of totally does. Having some (very) limited recourse is better than having none at all.
Better for the slave, not the slave-owner. Doesn't make the slavery any less an undeniable affront on humanity.
And apologies for not coddling and sweet talking slavery-apologists.You should apologize, considering this level of personal abuse is against forum rules. I mean, s#%+, I indicate in my very first post that I view the slavery in America's past is horrific, and still your first knee-jerk reaction is to call me a whitewasher. Either calm down or walk away.
I will do no such thing. Either grow some thicker skin, or, better idea, stop defending slavery.
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This is the second thread we've had on this topic this week; my stomach hurts.
Oops, make that "in 8 days." The extra day doesn't help any.
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No, it will be a discussion. I won't punish the player for the fact that for some reason every other PFS judge before he got to me didn't make the catch, and take the appropriate action. I will give him the chance to keep his ranks, and write in some other Profession. I will however make a note of the character name and number and will report said character to campaign management through the local Venture Captain, if he either goes back on his word or refuses to make the change to a legal profession.Most times I hear verbiage like that are from folks who try to whitewash the nasty truths of American slavery.Yes, because
how America enslaved blacks, which involved massive amounts of racism that deemed the slaves sub-human and denied them any rightsIs totally whitewashing it. American slavery was brutal, and I wouldn't hesitate to call it evil.
That doesn't mean all forms of slavery are automatically the same; perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the in-Golarion form of thralldom practiced in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. That is very much slavery, but thralls do have some rights; they're automatically freed after a set period, and can even file complaints against cruel or unfair masters.
Show up with Profession (Slaver) on any PFS table I run,and you and I are going to have a discussion.You giving a barely-restrained frothing-at-the-mouth rant is not a "discussion".
Or together agree to not play that character at a table you GM.
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The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.
Please don't. This thread is a good reason not to do it. S&~+ like this is not fun at a game table or to read on the forums.
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I'm a Pathfinder agent. I also happen to purchase slaves at auction with the "intent" to resell them at a profit. I'm just not very good at it; they always seem to "escape" before I can bring them back to market. Sometimes, I can convince their former owners to give me a refund... with a little extra compensation for my trouble.
So, to the original question... "Is Profession (Slaver) legal in Pathfinder Society?" I'd say it could be.
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If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.
And when you are doing everything you can to defend slavery I have every right as human being to tell you to get the f%$& out and take your tone policing with you.
You are defending, nay, justifying slavery. We have every right to be mad.
You are not entitled to soft words.
You are not entitled to us holding your hands.
You are not entitled to us using pleasantries and pleading with you.
AND YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED TO TELL US HOW WE REACT OR ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT REGARDING SUCH AN ABOMINATION THAT OFFENDS US ON EVRY LAYER OF OUR BEING.
Rysky wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.
And when you are doing everything you can to defend slavery I have every right as human being to tell you to get the f%$& out and take your tone policing with you.
You are defending, nay, justifying slavery. We have every right to be mad.
You are not entitled to soft words.
You are not entitled to us holding your hands.
You are not entitled to us using pleasantries and pleading with you.
AND YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED TO TELL US HOW WE REACT OR ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT REGARDING SUCH AN ABOMINATION THAT OFFENDS US ON EVRY LAYER OF OUR BEING.
This is when rational thought is lost.To convince me I am wrong, provide you best logic to convince me. Not name calling and hatred.
Hate is a circle, and if you want me to hate you back and ignore your words. Well thats the environment you are providing.
Never once did I say my opinion of slavery was moral, infact you were so upset and unwilling to look at my examples you ignored that I said I think it is immoral/ But morality is not universal, I understand that. I understand others disagree with my point and I provided the logic they would give. If you want to attack me instead of providing anothers side point so we can work together to provide a mutual understanding. Well then you have issues.
You're trying to justify slavery on a fallacy. There was never anything rational with this conversation to begin with.
There is no mutual understanding. You do not have the higher ground while toning your responses in some faux-zen nonsense to try and make arguments appear logical.
Morality. Is. Universal.
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If you get upset someones imaginary friend(PC) does that you believe is evil you have other serious issues.
I respect other people to have a valid opinion of mine that does not hurt other people. It is not like they are carrying the stars and bars to the table shouting white power.
They are takign the time to be a pretend person to help tell a story. Maybe they view themsevles as a anti-hero with a shaded story. Now if you do not like it in your game fine. But respect their ability to disagree, and do not get mad at them.
Getting mad and asking some to stop participating in the honest discussion because you firmly disagree with them is creating a destructive society. You can agree to disagree, and choose not tell play that story together as friends.
This simple question is not a reason to get upset, or belittle other people. No matter who you are. There is always a polite way to disagree not matter how wrong they are.
Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?
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I have every g!#@+#n right to be offended and angry when dealing slavery-apologists.It is interesting, because they feel they are arguing on the moral right, they have the right to be offensive and rude. Even people that should be enforcing this are jumping on the band wagon.Saying they have "some" hypothetical rights doesn't make it any less evil.Actually, if we're talking about degrees of evil, yeah, it kind of totally does. Having some (very) limited recourse is better than having none at all.
And apologies for not coddling and sweet talking slavery-apologists.You should apologize, considering this level of personal abuse is against forum rules. I mean, s#@@, I indicate in my very first post that I view the slavery in America's past is horrific, and still your first knee-jerk reaction is to call me a whitewasher. Either calm down or walk away.
Just because you are angry and offended doesn't mean they were being offensive. I haven't seen anyone on this board yet(though, I haven't read every post carefully) that has said a single positive thing about any form of slavery that would be easily considered evil by a rational human being. There are points in history where those who were slaves did not hate their lot in life, even choosing to remain after their time was complete. This is a fact that you can discover on your own or remain blinded by the fact that slavery is almost always completely reprehensible. Which no one here has said word one against.
You are determined to be offended if slavery isn't universally evil as if it affects you directly. Or even affects anyone living today. Which to my knowledge, it doesn't. There are plenty of living slaves today in situations your worst nightmares couldn't possible come close to, but I'm not aware of any cultures with a form where those in the system are happy with their lot.
But I digress. You have a right to be offended. Doesn't mean the facts(which you really should read about if you get this bothered by the concept) are any less true nor does it mean anyone is being truly offensive.
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Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?
The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.
Maybe he means convicted criminals that need to repay their debts. To fight over a game and what other people find fun. I find silly. I honestly do not care enough to debate it.
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Do my research for me to justify my flimsy argument because I can't.Not how arguments and discussions work.
I don't need anyone to do my research for me(well, not true. If you read a history book someone else is doing your research for you). My point is one of academics. Anyone as vehement and vitriolic as you would need to see things from their own research. My words would be pointless in convincing you. Don't be an ass.
And once again, no one is defending the general concept of slavery! Just because it may not be universally evil in all of its forms doesn't make those that are evil any less so.
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You are determined to be offended if slavery isn't universally evil as if it affects you directly. Or even affects anyone living today. Which to my knowledge, it doesn't.
Unfortunately your knowledge is incomplete. Because there are large parts of the world where it does... and you still get cases here in America.
Chattel Slavery is alive and well in the 21st century, even here in the land of the free. So yes, some of us react just as viscreally to this as anyone who'd try to claim a profession of (Rapist) or (Child-Molestor).
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You're trying to justify slavery on a fallacy. There was never anything rational with this conversation to begin with.
There is no mutual understanding. You do not have the higher ground while toning your responses in some faux-zen nonsense to try and make arguments appear logical.
Morality. Is. Universal.
Ok this is a debate, thank you. No you say I am argueign a fallacy. Describe what I said is a fallacy and what fallacy I used. I disagree I used any, please correct me. This will make me a better person
Deinfiton of morality: a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
It is not universal
You are looking for ethical. Ethics are universal, but it is difficult to establish something as ehtical. Because people disagree.
As a side point in my college ethics class I was required to argue the ethical side of slave owning. So this is something I was required to do for college credit.
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Hey, let's move this back to Golarion, because the in game definitions of "evil" and "good" are different than our real world definitions of "evil" and "good".
Are there any examples presented in Golarion canon of slavers who don't have an evil alignment? That would be the evidence that I would want to see to make a ruling.
You're trying to justify slavery on a fallacy. There was never anything rational with this conversation to begin with.
There is no mutual understanding. You do not have the higher ground while toning your responses in some faux-zen nonsense to try and make arguments appear logical.
Morality. Is. Universal.
Ok this is a debate, thank you. No you say I am argueign a fallacy. Describe what I said is a fallacy and what fallacy I used. I disagree I used any, please correct me. This will make me a better person
Deinfiton of morality: a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
It is not universal
You are looking for ethical. Ethics are universal, but it is difficult to establish something as ehtical. Because people disagree.
As a side point in my college ethics class I was required to argue the ethical side of slave owning. So this is something I was required to do for college credit.
And again you forget this isn't the real world of cynical moral relativism... This is a fantasy world where Good,Evil,Law, and Chaos are real forces, not just flags to wear on your chest.
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You are determined to be offended if slavery isn't universally evil as if it affects you directly. Or even affects anyone living today. Which to my knowledge, it doesn't.Unfortunately your knowledge is incomplete. Because there are large parts of the world where it does... and you still get cases here in America.
Slavery is alive and well in the 21st century, even here in the land of the free. So yes, some of us react just as viscreally to this as anyone who'd try to claim a profession of (Rapist) or (Child-Molestor).
Someone needs to learn how to read. Here, let me quote my whole phrase.
"You are determined to be offended if slavery isn't universally evil as if it affects you directly. Or even affects anyone living today. Which to my knowledge, it doesn't. There are plenty of living slaves today in situations your worst nightmares couldn't possible come close to, but I'm not aware of any cultures with a form where those in the system are happy with their lot."
In your speed to condemn someone you have failed to see the whole picture... which is exactly what I've been talking about this whole time.
I was saying that I wasn't aware of any non-evil forms that currently exist.
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Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?
Please do not put words in my, nor my prospective character's mouth.
Please do not put words in my, nor my prospective character's mouth.
Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?
If it's a viable character, you should be able to do it without the profession. Also, what else could "acquire" possibly mean in that case?
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Do my research for me to justify my flimsy argument because I can't.Not how arguments and discussions work.I don't need anyone to do my research for me(well, not true. If you read a history book someone else is doing your research for you). My point is one of academics. Anyone as vehement and vitriolic as you would need to see things from their own research. My words would be pointless in convincing you. Don't be an ass.
And once again, no one is defending the general concept of slavery! Just because it may not be universally evil in all of its forms doesn't make those that are evil any less so.
Nooo, I'm saying YOU need to do YOUR Own research.
You keep mentioning academia and history in order to defend your stance, but haven't actually put forth any evidence to do so.
Slavery isn't universally evil = defending slavery. You. Need. To. Realize. This.
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so being a pesh dealer ..... or a prostitute of a certain goddess is legal but not a slaver ?
maybe I am the only one that can see the irony...
any slavers are welcome at my table...along with zon kuthon torturers...and other silly professions ( In game)
and you know why ?
Because its a Game... a game that is fantasy. where you make believe what happens . And I for one wont ruin the players idea or character background because someone might get butthurt.
Pesh dealer? Possibly.
Pesh pusher? Yes.
And oh for the love of gods- of course the slut-shaming commences. Because sex is bad. And woman (and men, but we all know who you were referring to) being in charge of their sexuality and taking pride in it is bad as well. Is very bad. Bad as completely stripping away another person's humanity.
Yes it's game, that a group of people get together and build forth with their imaginations and personalities. Complete Detachment like you describe isn't healthy.
Going off the above I'm guessing you wouldn't have any problems running a game with a serial rapist character?
nope.. its a game
is it distasteful -yes... but rapist isnt really a job is it ?
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so being a pesh dealer ..... or a prostitute of a certain goddess is legal but not a slaver ?
maybe I am the only one that can see the irony...
any slavers are welcome at my table...along with zon kuthon torturers...and other silly professions ( In game)
and you know why ?
Because its a Game... a game that is fantasy. where you make believe what happens . And I for one wont ruin the players idea or character background because someone might get butthurt.
Pesh dealer? Possibly.
Pesh pusher? Yes.
And oh for the love of gods- of course the slut-shaming commences. Because sex is bad. And woman (and men, but we all know who you were referring to) being in charge of their sexuality and taking pride in it is bad as well. Is very bad. Bad as completely stripping away another person's humanity.
Yes it's game, that a group of people get together and build forth with their imaginations and personalities. Complete Detachment like you describe isn't healthy.
Going off the above I'm guessing you wouldn't have any problems running a game with a serial rapist character?
nope.. its a game
is it distasteful -yes... but rapist isnt really a job is it ?
The "it's a game!" Defense used to defend playing a mental projection of yourself as a rapist is probably the most f~!!ed up thing I've read so far in here.
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Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?The question is in the name of the thread, folks, I have a character concept that is skilled in the 'acquisition of talented individuals, for a variety of tasks from the mundane to the exotic', and I want to know if I can do it in Pathfinder Society.
Maybe he means convicted criminals that need to repay their debts. To fight over a game and what other people find fun. I find silly. I honestly do not care enough to debate it.
One..he did not qualif,y so he doesn't get props for maybes. He says "acquire" individuals for "tasks" mundane and exotic. Not even close to what you're putting forth. It's fairly clear that he's looking to harvest people for slavery and the buzzwords he translates correspond to "general labor" and "sexual slavery".
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Regardless of the question of whether slavery is evil (I think it is, for the record), it is really bad form to bring something like that to a table of people you don't know. Even if you can be trusted to not be a dick about it, those people you play with that day don't know that. Even if you aren't a dick about it, it could still be a raw subject for them. They may just want to spend 4-5 hours relaxing without dealing with any BS.
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Guys, referring to people as "mouth-frothers" is not a great way to prove that your style of arguing is civil and issue-focused.
Also, anybody who leans on "morality isn't universal" in a discussion about Pathfinder alignment has pretty much conceded the point.
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If it's a viable character, you should be able to do it without the profession. Also, what else could "acquire" possibly mean in that case?Please do not put words in my, nor my prospective character's mouth.
Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?
verb (used with object), acquired, acquiring.
1.to come into possession or ownership of; get as one's own:
to acquire property.
2.
to gain for oneself through one's actions or efforts:
to acquire learning.
Acquire is an open-ended word, used by myself because the character is not yet fully formed, and used in-character because of their employment of what will likely be various methods.
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If it's a viable character, you should be able to do it without the profession. Also, what else could "acquire" possibly mean in that case?Please do not put words in my, nor my prospective character's mouth.
Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?verb (used with object), acquired, acquiring.
1.
to come into possession or ownership of; get as one's own:
to acquire property.
2.
to gain for oneself through one's actions or efforts:
to acquire learning.Acquire is an open-ended word, used by myself because the character is not yet fully formed, and used in-character because of their employment of what will likely be various methods.
Neither "Acquire" or anything else in the OP you put into '' is open ended in that context.
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Oh, and yeah, what the hell kind of PFS character needs to have Profession (slaver)? If you're really desperate to play a human trafficker, don't come here and kick off a doomed thread—there are a million and one ways to make a character associated with slavery without literally putting Profession (slavery) in there. My character in a home game is a wilderness guide who frequently hires out to slavers. She's Neutral Evil, by the way.
If you really can't get by without making your little alignment debate fuel, at least make a character a GM won't have to waste everybody's time disallowing. Keep the evil crap to yourself. Other Professions you can use:
- Profession (mercenary)
- Profession (auctioneer)
- Profession (bounty hunter)
- Profession (overseer)
- Profession (sailor)
- Profession (trader)
- Profession (guard)
- Profession (warden)
- Profession (investor)
- Profession (flamewar starter)
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Regardless of the question of whether slavery is evil (I think it is, for the record), it is really bad form to bring something like that to a table of people you don't know. Even if you can be trusted to not be a dick about it, those people you play with that day don't know that. Even if you aren't a dick about it, it could still be a raw subject for them. They may just want to spend 4-5 hours relaxing without dealing with any BS.
Exactly. While there may be a few PFS scenarios where roleplaying Profession (Slaver) might be useful, such scenarios are few and far between. And if you have taken ranks in such a profession, at the end of the scenario when the GM asks if you have a day job, just say "Yes" and tell her what you rolled. I see no reason why a player couldn't take Profession (Slaver), but I also see no reason why a player has to broadcast it to the rest of the table.
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Do my research for me to justify my flimsy argument because I can't.Not how arguments and discussions work.I don't need anyone to do my research for me(well, not true. If you read a history book someone else is doing your research for you). My point is one of academics. Anyone as vehement and vitriolic as you would need to see things from their own research. My words would be pointless in convincing you. Don't be an ass.
And once again, no one is defending the general concept of slavery! Just because it may not be universally evil in all of its forms doesn't make those that are evil any less so.
Nooo, I'm saying YOU need to do YOUR Own research.
You keep mentioning academia and history in order to defend your stance, but haven't actually put forth any evidence to do so.
Slavery isn't universally evil = defending slavery. You. Need. To. Realize. This.
Is it? Is it defending what the early american settlers did? I will leave indentured slavery out of this comment merely because it deserves a discussion... but all of the rest? Is it really? Does it defend how Egypt handled those it conquered?
No.So if it does not defend all of slavery it does not defend general slavery.
You. Need. To. Realize. This.
Seriously... basics of logic here. It is a matter of sets. Set A all of slavery, Subset 1 of A(evil) and subset 2 of A(not necessarily evil).
If I make a comment about subset 2 it has no relation to subset 1.
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Oh, and yeah, what the hell kind of PFS character needs to have Profession (slaver)? If you're really desperate to play a human trafficker, don't come here and kick off a doomed thread—there are a million and one ways to make a character associated with slavery without literally putting Profession (slavery) in there. My character in a home game is a wilderness guide who frequently hires out to slavers. She's Neutral Evil, by the way. Other Professions you can use:
- Profession (mercenary)
- Profession (auctioneer)
- Profession (bounty hunter)
- Profession (overseer)
- Profession (sailor)
- Profession (trader)
- Profession (guard)
- Profession (warden)
- Profession (investor)
- Profession (flamewar starter)
-Profession (Manhunter)
Inbetween Profession (bounty hunter) and Profession (assassin).
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In addition to what others have said, it's important to note that you're playing in the real world - that context is still there, regardless of whether you can dredge up a culture that totally had good-guy slavery. In the US, especially, there's a very real subtext when you talk about slavery, especially in a casual or dismissive manner.
PFS is supposed to be welcoming to everybody. Please, please, do your part to keep it that way.
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Wait, I can rhyme this.
MERCENARY
AUCTIONEER
BOUNTY HUNTER
OVERSEER
RAIDER
TRADER
SAILOR
GUARD, OR
WARDEN
'VESTOR
FLAMEWAR STARTER
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Do my research for me to justify my flimsy argument because I can't.Not how arguments and discussions work.I don't need anyone to do my research for me(well, not true. If you read a history book someone else is doing your research for you). My point is one of academics. Anyone as vehement and vitriolic as you would need to see things from their own research. My words would be pointless in convincing you. Don't be an ass.
And once again, no one is defending the general concept of slavery! Just because it may not be universally evil in all of its forms doesn't make those that are evil any less so.
Nooo, I'm saying YOU need to do YOUR Own research.
You keep mentioning academia and history in order to defend your stance, but haven't actually put forth any evidence to do so.
Slavery isn't universally evil = defending slavery. You. Need. To. Realize. This.
Is it? Is it defending what the early american settlers did? I will leave indentured slavery out of this comment merely because it deserves a discussion... but all of the rest? Is it really? Does it defend how Egypt handled those it conquered?
No.
So if it does not defend all of slavery it does not defend general slavery.
You. Need. To. Realize. This.Seriously... basics of logic here. It is a matter of sets. Set A all of slavery, Subset 1 of A(evil) and subset 2 of A(not necessarily evil).
If I make a comment about subset 2 it has no relation to the subset 1.
You missed my point. You need to provide actual evidence that "subset 2 of A" ever existed at all.
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I figured it was a buy low, sell high situation. A person trained in making fancy rugs in Sothis isn't as valuable as they are in Cheliax. There would be a profit for finding people with skills and matching them people with who value those skills. Like physicians...
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If it's a viable character, you should be able to do it without the profession. Also, what else could "acquire" possibly mean in that case?Please do not put words in my, nor my prospective character's mouth.
Did you even read the OP? He's describing a person who goes out and KIDNAPS (which is the translation of his word "acquire") people into slavery. Are you seriously going to argue that that's not evil?verb (used with object), acquired, acquiring.
1.
to come into possession or ownership of; get as one's own:
to acquire property.
2.
to gain for oneself through one's actions or efforts:
to acquire learning.Acquire is an open-ended word, used by myself because the character is not yet fully formed, and used in-character because of their employment of what will likely be various methods.
You're obviously using the first definition. Like, obviously obviously. Absolutely no one is going to read your post and say, "Gee, the character with Profession (Slaver) must be looking to acquire people the way an autodidact acquires knowledge; nothing creepy about that!"
If you had asked about something like Ugly Jed Peeps character who uses Profession (Slaver) to sabotage the institution from within, I'd have assumed you were asking in good faith, but as is, it looks like you're trying to find an excuse for an evil character.
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I figured it was a buy low, sell high situation. A person trained in making fancy rugs in Sothis isn't as valuable as they are in Cheliax. There would be a profit for finding people with skills and matching them people with who value those skills. Like physicians...
Profession (Job Recruiter)
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Hey, let's move this back to Golarion, because the in game definitions of "evil" and "good" are different than our real world definitions of "evil" and "good".
Are there any examples presented in Golarion canon of slavers who don't have an evil alignment? That would be the evidence that I would want to see to make a ruling.
Slavery is huge in Osirion. They have a large writeup on it.
Caught between the potential for permanent economic
harm posed by prospect of abolition and the slave revolts
that threatened to bring down his father's government,
Khemet III instituted the Laws of Equitable Use in 4679
AR. These laws abolished hereditary slavery, established
guidelines under which the government could place
someone in slavery as punishment for criminal activity,
prohibited harsh mistreatment of slaves and killing or
marrying them against their wills, and chartered the
Council of Liberated Slaves. This compromise ended the
slave rebellions and restored order in Osirion. Osirian
slaves today are considerably better off than their
counterparts in other slaving nations such as Cheliax
and Katapesh.
Osirion is an established LN society.
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You missed my point. You need to provide actual evidence that "subset 2 of A" ever existed at all.Do my research for me to justify my flimsy argument because I can't.Not how arguments and discussions work.I don't need anyone to do my research for me(well, not true. If you read a history book someone else is doing your research for you). My point is one of academics. Anyone as vehement and vitriolic as you would need to see things from their own research. My words would be pointless in convincing you. Don't be an ass.
And once again, no one is defending the general concept of slavery! Just because it may not be universally evil in all of its forms doesn't make those that are evil any less so.
Nooo, I'm saying YOU need to do YOUR Own research.
You keep mentioning academia and history in order to defend your stance, but haven't actually put forth any evidence to do so.
Slavery isn't universally evil = defending slavery. You. Need. To. Realize. This.
Is it? Is it defending what the early american settlers did? I will leave indentured slavery out of this comment merely because it deserves a discussion... but all of the rest? Is it really? Does it defend how Egypt handled those it conquered?
No.
So if it does not defend all of slavery it does not defend general slavery.
You. Need. To. Realize. This.Seriously... basics of logic here. It is a matter of sets. Set A all of slavery, Subset 1 of A(evil) and subset 2 of A(not necessarily evil).
If I make a comment about subset 2 it has no relation to the subset 1.
I do? You have the right to tell me what I must do? I think not. No, all I need do is say "here, this thing exists". You can say "No, it does not" if you want. But you are not proving your point any more than I am proving mine.
My point, in the end, is to not be closed minded due to anger. You must learn all of a thing before you can judge all of a thing. How is saying something is universal without being able to give more evidence than "no seriously guys, I'm angry" any different than what you are saying I am doing. Yet I'm in the wrong? I assure you, do your research. You'll see that I am correct here. I'm just not going to do it for you. Your lazy anger offends me.
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I'm a Pathfinder agent. I also happen to purchase slaves at auction with the "intent" to resell them at a profit. I'm just not very good at it; they always seem to "escape" before I can bring them back to market. Sometimes, I can convince their former owners to give me a refund... with a little extra compensation for my trouble.
I should report you to the Chain for questioning about your lost shipments. But... as long as you're doing your best to operate in good faith. Non-Hellknights can't be expected to be perfect, after all.
Keep up the good work.