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There was lively discussion about E6 and its variants in a couple of other current threads that weren't actually devoted to the topic, so to help keep those threads on topic and also carry on the conversation, I've set up this thread for all sorts of E6/E7/E8 discussion.
Some quick basics for those who are new:
What is E6?
E6, short for Epic 6, is a variant of d20 systems (particularly D&D and Pathfinder) that puts a cap on character advancement at 6th level. After that point, characters are simply given extra feats every few thousand XP or so. There are as many ways to run this variant as there are GMs using it, including setting the cap at other levels (usually 8th, though 7th is fairly common in Pathfinder games, and some go into the low teens). These variants are referred to as E8, E7, and so on, with the number being whatever level you're stopping level growth at.
Why E6?
Well, the answer to this varies from group to group, but there are two main, recurring reasons for this - one fluff-based, and one crunch-based, though there is some overlap.
On the fluff side, E6 helps establish a low-magic world that can be very useful for running games with a classic Lord of the Rings style of fantasy, or Game of Thrones level of grittiness. It also cuts out a lot of high level spells that can be difficult for GMs to design satisfying adventures around without contriving some reason that every Big Bad Evil Guy has their entire fortress warded against scrying, teleportation, and similar abilities.
Mechanically, the range between 6th and 8th levels are also when the various classes are on the most even footing with each other. You're probably familiar with the concept of "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" - that is, early on, warrior-type classes are decidedly sturdier and more robust than mages who often have to nurse single-digit hit points for a couple levels, and have to be judicious about their limited spells per day, but warriors grow linearly in power while mages grow quadratically and around the mid-point, mages' spellcasting easily overtakes martial classes' abilities. 6th to 8th level is roughly the point at which this cross-over happens so every class can bring their A-game without anyone feeling eclipsed.
Blending the two, there are many spells that can end combat in just a couple of rounds regardless of how tough you've made your boss creature, leading to rather anti-climactic combat. Additionally, players' access to magic items is greatly restricted, allowing for only a few of the "best in slot" items that players are practically guaranteed to have at high levels, so characters are more likely to have varied equipment with interesting effects rather than all being decked out in standard stat-boosting gear.
Personally, something I particularly appreciate about E6 is the fact that a 6th-level character is decidedly more powerful than a 1st-level one, but a 1st-level character is still capable of helping out an otherwise 6th-level party. This allows for a number of things like players having alternate characters that can grow independently, and being able to quickly and easily introduce new players to an ongoing game without having to hand them a sheet with dozens of abilities they need to learn.
So how does this work, exactly?
Well, as I said, the basics are simply to stop characters from leveling up at whichever level you've decided is best, and award bonus feats instead at regular intervals (say, every 5000 XP or so), but for ideas on how you can alter this basic concept, check out the (sadly incomplete) P6 Codex. Note that this is a fan-made document, and that the only official rules of E6 are those I've already stated, and whatever else your table decides.
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So, again for those who weren't in the previous conversation, I'm actually pretty new to E6, having only just converted to it a week ago. Still, I've been playing d20 games since I was 14 (about a decade ago).
A question I would like to pose to those more experienced in E6 is this: I like the P6 Codex's use of Epic and Signature feats, because it makes post-6th progression feel more... something. Can't quite come up with a word for it. Also, at least for Pathfinder, I feel like 8th is a cleaner cut-off for class features than 6th, but I also like cutting off spells at 3rd level, as well as the reduced hp, saves, and BAB (in particular, most full BAB classes don't get a lot of cool toys for combat as other classes, so I like that they're the only ones to get an iterative attack - I appreciate that there are those who feel differently, however) that come with stopping level growth at 6th versus 8th.
Anyway, my quandary is that these feats are like the capstone abilities of non-E6 Pathfinder in that they discourage multi-classing, but even moreso since being at (effectively) 8th level, they're actually tangible. While I do prefer this to the way that there was basically no reason not to multi-class in D&D (aside from the XP penalty which I never liked, so I always house-ruled away), I would like multi-classing to be a more viable option, at least.
My thought is to create a single feat (or pair of feats) for multi-class characters that basically allows them to choose two classes that they have at least one level in and treat them as being one level higher (solely!) for the purposes of determining class features. Now, the question becomes where exactly should I draw the line so that multi-classing becomes a viable option to compete with single-classing and getting your Signature feat without making multi-classing entirely preferable to doing so.
For one, should I go with one or two feats (that have the same effect, but stack)? Additionally, should this apply to determining everything concerning class features, including granting access to new ones, or just improving existing ones? What about class features that improve existing ones but are given separate entries (like evasion and improved evasion)? I do know there's probably more than one way to answer this question. For example, if I go the two feats route, then it definitely shouldn't add new class features, and vice versa. But aside from that...
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E6 is a Fan Made system in the first place - there's not any really 'official' rules.
That was my point. Perhaps my prose ended up a bit too purple to be clear though, which completely defeats the purpose. -_-' I wanted to be sure that was established since I was linking to a fairly well-formatted PDF, and didn't want anyone thinking that those rules were official (as happened at least once in the previous conversation).
Still, it's good that you reiterated that point since it is a rather important one.
Anyway, I honestly think it's a bit of a shame that pathfinder got rid of, or at least haven't made any of the various 'stacking' feats of 3.5e.
The closest we get is things like kitsune tails, which are admittedly quite good in an e6 environment.
A bard or sorcerer or even paladin would do really well to pick those up.
Yeah, no. Feats are a dime a dozen in E6 (in fact, this very thing is making me consider requiring that bardic masterpieces have to use spells for their cost, and not feats), so allowing a player to take Magical Tail eight times would drastically upset the balance of power. In a regular game, getting to that point would require a player to use up all but three of their feats, and they'd be around 15th level by that point. The ability to use 16 spell-like abilities (and pretty nice ones at that, particularly at low levels) a day is way too much for E6 where the closest thing to a limit on feats that exists would still only make eight tails take up about half your allotment. I would strongly recommend GMs who allow that feat to cap it to three or four at most in an E6 game.
I figured that one out a while ago. I really like that there's this one specific build that can pull off something truly world-changingly incredible like that. You need everything just right, so only one person is going to be able to do it, and when they do, everybody will take notice.
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I figured that one out a while ago. I really like that there's this one specific build that can pull off something truly world-changingly incredible like that. You need everything just right, so only one person is going to be able to do it, and when they do, everybody will take notice.
That's exactly how it worked out in our campaign. :)
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That's your opinion, I guess. Six feats worth of prerequisites, the first three of which are actively bad, in order to be able to take a feat for confusion, and then another one for dominate person is incredibly fair.
Meanwhile mr. Raise Dead is spending some three feats and giving up a class feature (lay on hands) to do so.
Okay, I forgot that you have to take the abilities in order rather than being able to freely choose. Still, suggestion and displacement are pretty useful in E6.
As for raise dead, it also requires a paladin to have a 19 in Charisma which is of questionable use in a full 20-level game, and virtually useless when a few 1st- and maybe a couple of 2nd-level spells are all they'll ever be able to cast. Not to mention that simply getting a character to 19 in a E6 game isn't the easiest thing in the world, and will dictate a few more build options. You only get one ability score increase meaning that you'll have to start with a 18 which will tie up at at least half of your points at character creation. Meanwhile, Magical Tail is freely available to any build if you just pick the right race. You could still set your Charisma at 19, and strengthen the feat as well as your class's main stat if you pick something like sorcerer, bard, or oracle.
On top of that, for an E6 game, personally, I'd still houserule that even with this feat, raise dead would only be usable once per week at most and may even reduce your daily lay on hands uses by 10 for the entire duration of that cooldown.
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The main thing for me about E6 discussions was that if you don't have a lot of experience playing those levels it's hard to know what the outcome of the restriction is going to be. It finally worked when someone said "Lord of the Rings", though I do think my personal view of that series power still clouds my judgement of it. It seems like such a jump to go from that to "flying heroes" at E8: it feels like there should be a middle ground of anime/wuxia jumping before the actual flight.
...I'd say the progression typically goes LotR<wuxia<"flying heroes"<literal gods<anime, given the frequency that cliffs get cleaved and planets exploded in them. Or even literal gods punched. :p
Incidentally, I'd also like to raise my eyebrow at the description of "Lord of the Rings" for what E6 is like. Maybe in the Hobbit, or the Fellowship, but Sauron took on half an army single-handedly, Gandalf clearly has way more spells up his sleeves than he ever actually uses in the books, and let's not even get into the Silmarillion. Still, I use it because that's how it tends to be described, and people do seem to have a particular set of ideas about what sort of flavour that series has.
...I guess that might be the disconnect, though. Lord of the Rings has a fairly low-fantasy feel even while some pretty epic powers are are shown. Conversely, Warcraft has a ridiculously high-fantasy feel, but if you look at the powers that most (non-dragons or divinely/fel-infused) characters can perform, they actually line up pretty well with what's available to E6/E8 characters. But yeah, if I were to describe E6 as being like Warcraft everyone would be like "WHAAAAAAAA???" ...Just something that amused me.
Mostly because Warcraft throws bigger numbers on stuff to make them look more impressive at high levels.
When they are actually just kind of doing the same thing as lower levels...everything just scaled.
You still can't pound through a door or wall, after all.
If you want to throw multiclassing into an E6 mix, just allow class levels to be taken after reaching e6, but you don't gain any HD, and it overlaps with your main levels.
i.e. it can't get your BAB above 6, CL above 6, improve your good saves any more, etc. A fighter level could give a wizard better BAB on his off levels, and help his fort save, and that bonus feat..
But you'd probably have to make 'a class level' cost at least three feats to keep the balance even.
Also, it devalues the fighter, just giving out combat feats. After all, anyone can take the combat feats the fighter gets, and his level 6 class features are underwhelming, to say the least.
Just observations. Note that a caster in an E6 campaign is in the fairly unique position of being able to very rapidly pick up tons of metamagic feats, which should really help their versatility.
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For those of you concerned about losing the ability to throw high-level monsters at your E6 party, I'll remind you of a recent example of exactly this happening: Batman vs. Superman.
How does a lowly human take on a demigod? Careful planning, useful gear, elaborate traps, several allies (even non-combat ones), and perfect timing.
Now apply this to your E6 party tasked with killing an adult red dragon. CR 14? No way, right? Well, of course a group of 6th level heroes couldn't just kick in the door of the beast's lair and roll initiative. That would be suicide.
What if they spent a whole adventure planning the fight, though? Gathering up weapons and spells that deal cold damage, potions of fire resistance, items to ward against fear and physical damage... They could hire a bunch of mercenaries to help them out with nets and chains.
Or, if they're very clever, they could actually make contact with the dragon and engage it socially. Sure, it's chaotic evil, but it's not stupid. What if they enticed it with bribery or offered to help it conquer a major city by taking its defenses down from within. After a while of carefully earning the creature's trust, they spring their trap with perfect surprise!
Wouldn't that be a much better story than the time your 15th level party stumbled upon an adult red dragon in a dungeon, rolled initiative, and beat it in a few turns?
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In terms of 3rd party stuff E6 helps casters from Spheres of Power because while a few things have level pre-reqs the majority of their stuff is available at the beginning and can be gained by taking a feat.
Great point!
So while classes like sorcerer stop gaining new spells Sphere Casters can continue to improve their versatility.
Or this.
Color Spray, Web, Stinking Cloud, Hold Person...these can end encounters instantly at low level. Hells, Grease and Entangle can.
That's because stuff is so much more fragile at those levels, and saves fail more often.
Once you get past 3rd level spells, spells start overshadowing everything else, as magic always does. Once a spon caster gets his 3rd level spells, Expanded Arcana will insure that eventually they get all the spells known they want, and don't fall to prep casters. It gets even more fun if they have a level 3 Ring of Spell Knowledge and can pick up any spell in the game on the fly...
So, yeah, spells are the reward...a reward that dwarfs those of any other class.
As was pointed out above, e6-e8 are the 'sweet spot' where martial ability and magical ability intersect and do not outshine one another. PF is fine for a game in this range.
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Spells don't break well-crafted games.
True, but as stated before: The point of E6 isn't just to nerf casters. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on this point, like DMs only use E6 because they're scared of giving players access to teleport, raise dead, or wish. This is not the case.
Personally, my favorite part of E6 is how much it reduces all the math in the game, speeding up combat rounds, simplifying character builds, and generally making the game much more newbie friendly. That last part is really important to me because I always seem to be introducing new players to RPGs.
But in either event E6 really just feels to low and is probably better off in a different system than PF.
Give it a shot; you might be surprised. It actually works best in Pathfinder because of their great design decision to eliminate "dead" levels. This makes it so that every one of your 6 levels gives you something fun and useful.
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Mostly because Warcraft throws bigger numbers on stuff to make them look more impressive at high levels.
When they are actually just kind of doing the same thing as lower levels...everything just scaled.
Well I was meaning narratively. The game's status as a MMO obviously prevents it from granting players much world-altering power. Outside of those who are powered by basically divine beings, the most wondrous thing a single person does in the narrative either Khadgar blowing up a small dam, or Thrall momentarily summoning a small thunderstorm (I'm counting his facing Deathwing as being classified under "powered by divine beings" since he was using a magical McGuffin and aided by four practically demigod-like dragon aspects).
If you want to throw multiclassing into an E6 mix, just allow class levels to be taken after reaching e6, but you don't gain any HD, and it overlaps with your main levels.
i.e. it can't get your BAB above 6, CL above 6, improve your good saves any more, etc. A fighter level could give a wizard better BAB on his off levels, and help his fort save, and that bonus feat..
But you'd probably have to make 'a class level' cost at least three feats to keep the balance even.
Eh... This seems a bit messy. It seems to favour players still taking six levels of one class, with the rest just being special add-ons. It also muddles up the identity of multi-class characters. I'd rather have a wizard 4/fighter 2 (as a random, non-literal example) in my game than a fighter 6 who can cast spells like a wizard.
Also, it devalues the fighter, just giving out combat feats. After all, anyone can take the combat feats the fighter gets, and his level 6 class features are underwhelming, to say the least.
This is something I've been trying to figure out, particularly considering I'm building off of the P6 Codex's Signature feats that grant the 7th- and 8th-level class features through feats. How do you make a feat that grants a bonus feat? >.> And it can't simply be ignored since some archetypes replace that 8th-level bonus feat in various classes with a different feature, so there needs to be something replaceable there.
For those of you concerned about losing the ability to throw high-level monsters at your E6 party, I'll remind you of a recent example of exactly this happening: Batman vs. Superman.
How does a lowly human take on a demigod? Careful planning, useful gear, elaborate traps, several allies (even non-combat ones), and perfect timing.
(etc.)
Okay, I know going on about it is going to make me sound like a much bigger fanboy than I am, but... again, Warcraft (or any half-decent MMO, really) with its raids. Most (particularly older) raid bosses are designed to be able to wipe out an entire raid in seconds, if they're allowed to use all their abilities at their full potential. While some of the strategies used to design these encounters don't directly translate to tabletop RPGs (taunting, positioning, watching for tells, etc.), some do (preparation, environmental features that can be exploited, etc.).
As Headfirst said, preparation in particular allows a party to get by with quite a bit more than they otherwise could, but preparation can only be done if you know what you're in for. Players can probably figure out the weaknesses and strengths of a red dragon pretty easily just by knowing that's what they're after, but a powerful orc general is a different matter. Now, if this were a MMO, you could find out how to fight him by looking the encounter up on a website, or - if one's not available - simply going up against him expecting to die just to see what his patterns are.
But corpse running isn't typically an option in tabletop games, and if there's a site that details how to take on a boss in your campaign before your party has reached them, you're probably doing something wrong. Still, this vital step of researching the boss is possible through interrogating minions, infiltrating strongholds, and so on. Perhaps the party might find out about his troll ancestry that grants him amazing regenerative abilities - so long as his injuries don't come from fire or acid. However, always be fair about these sorts of surprises. Especially if the boss has a trick up his sleeve that could spell certain doom for an unaware party, they should always have a reasonable opportunity to discover any and all of these sorts of secrets before challenging the boss, and ideally, they should have multiple options for how to acquire this information.
I don't like capped games generally, so you can take this for what it's worth, but E6 is just no fun for casters. The first couple of levels are just mediocre, especially for a spontaneous caster. The reward is higher level spells. There are not a ton of spells at fourth level, at all, that are game enders. Like at three, stinking cloud, etc. are useful, but they don't simply end combat. Combat ending spells are really 5th and 6th level (icy prison, disintegrate). I think it's silly to deny casters useful and fun fourth level spells like dim door. If you are going to do this and plan on including casters I highly recommend E8 and E10.
Also if you plan well you can play to 20, and just have different gritty feels at different levels. Spells don't break well-crafted games. But in either event E6 really just feels to low and is probably better off in a different system than PF.
First, I don't like "combat ending" spells even existing, really. That's pretty much what swings the balance at high levels so heavily towards casters and pretty much why people who like martial classes resent casters so much. If the party mage can banish or disintegrate even the mightiest foe in a single round, what is even the point of having a barbarian or ranger whose fanciest trick is knocking off a tenth of the creature's hp each round? Heck, what is even the point of anyone even having hp at all?
The trouble with play at 20th level is that you have to plan out every encounter to account for these sorts of things. And then, also make sure that you're somehow managing to still let the party caster feel like there was a point to him picking up all these fancy toys. Which strikes me as a rather Heisenbergian problem (in reference to the Uncertainty Principle - that is, either the mage gets to use his toys, or combat actually lasts long enough for everyone in the party to feel useful, but not both at the same time). E6 makes this sort of planning optional, and all the more exciting for it since it means a problem for the party to solve, not just the GM.
And on a personal note, if you think there's nothing fun for casters to do at lower levels, then you simply have no imagination. Many of my personal favourite spells are 2nd- and 3rd-level. And a few are even 1st. Not to mention the antics you can get up to with a cleverly used cantrip. Hell, fireball has unquestionably been the most iconic spell in the game, ever since Gygax and Arneson first wrote it down.
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The fundamental problem with E6 is that it's based on a false premise.
The game doesn't change at level 7. It changes at 3rd level spells, and mostly just transmutations and conjurations at that. And stuff as mundane and grounded as being able to inflict wounds that meaningfully impair your opponent (eg. sickening critical) have steep BAB prerequisites.
No, it doesn't change at level 7. Hence E7. And E8 for that matter. Everyone has their particular tastes for what level of power is acceptable, and even otherwise troublesome 3rd-level spells are often checked by their much lower daily limit than at higher levels, the inability to have metamagic feats applied to them, and that save bonuses and save DCs are within (at least what I consider to be) a pretty decent range of each other. So it's pretty likely that you'll need to have a back-up plan in case you run out of hold monsters and entangles, and still have an ogre or two barreling down the corridor.
Didn't play in Pathfinder E6 but 3.5 after some time really makes you appreciate how much more powerful you are than all those guards, villagers and random bystanders.
Especially if characters even a little optimized.
Like for example simple boring fighter which is really not a good class to play in E6. He can in around 10 minutes crush castle gates with his bare fists. And if he somehow got his hands on adamantine weapons any siege featuring such a fighter probably will go in favor of the side allied with him.
Evocation wizard can kill dozens if not hundreds of soldiers with one spell deciding whole battles in a few rounds. And some tricks that can be made with low level spells are really neat especially if you flaunt them before some 1st-2nd level audience with no access to their own magic.
And that assassin rogue really works. Cause most people have at best 30 HP or even less. So he can go down their chimney and murder them in their sleep with one attack. With different protective spells much less prevalent it is also easier to steal stuff. You probably will still have trouble getting into royal treasury without magic but it will be only "insanely hard" instead of straight up impossible.
Overall E6 favors specialisation even more than normal games. Having a couple of tricks that you are really good at is much more valuable than general versatility. And feats give you chance to broaden your available tricks later.
Nightflier, I would't do that to paladins. They were redesigned specifically not to depend on wisdom, because requiring two different mental stats to make use of their powers when they're expected to be warriors first made them so unfocused that they were bad at their own job.
I suggest banning them or finding a way to limit them other than making them less powerful and less fun to play.
That's a nice summary of E6. I like the general idea, even if it comes with issues. P6 was quite a letdown though: Unnecessary restrictions on rather weak feats (Fleet, several extra feats) while sticking with the abomination called Leadership (which would be gone with pure E6) makes it a no-go.
I see an issue with getting a new feat every 5k XP (or similiar static numbers). Because with each additional feat, you can overcome stronger encounters, resulting in increased level speed. There are diminishing returns (you picked the 'best' feats already), but it might still spiral out of control - on the long run. Not sure whether this is an issue in real play.
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That's a nice summary of E6. I like the general idea, even if it comes with issues. P6 was quite a letdown though: Unnecessary restrictions on rather weak feats (Fleet, several extra feats) while sticking with the abomination called Leadership (which would be gone with pure E6) makes it a no-go.
The best way to play Pathfinder, in my opinion, is pure E6. That's where you just cap advancement at 6th level, then give bonus feats every 3 sessions. all that extra stuff in the P6 Codex sounds fun, but it really just clutters up a system that shines because of its simplicity. No new rules, no Leadership, no capstone feats, etc.
Nightflier, I get what you're going for and it's not a bad idea, but by making the entry requirements anti-synergistic with the class itself you're going to unintentionally hose it. I'd consider using level, race, backstory, and/or any qualities that make Paladins better at their jobs instead.
I'll be off now, since this is somewhat off topic.
My table has been thinking an awful lot lately about implementing an E6 restriction on our game. The one question I have that I haven't seen really addressed (could just be I'm not looking in the right places, if that's the case please point me in the right direction) is how this affects the use of the Bestiaries? Do all the monsters that are APL +4 just get tossed out summarily? Or do those monsters get weakened by taking away HD above 6, and removing powers that would obviously be overpowered given the power level of the PCs?
I get the PC end of E6, and I can definitely see the benefit of level capping at six for PCs and NPCs, but the affect that has on the Bestiary is my main concern.
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how this affects the use of the Bestiaries?
There are three ways to handle monsters in E6, in my opinion:
1. As you said, just throw out all the high level monsters. This is the easiest way, but by far the least recommended.
2. Modify all the high level monsters by tweaking their numbers so they're viable in E6. While this method works, it's really time-consuming for the DM.
3. The best way, as I see it, is to keep the monsters as they are, but introduce other elements into the game that allow the players to take on larger challenges. Your 6th level party needs to take on a red dragon? Before they charge into its lair and try to take it on, maybe construct the adventure so they first have to find several scrolls or limited use magic items that bolster their defenses or allow them to overcome the dragon's resistances. Maybe you forego all that and just challenge them to setup some traps (like the dwarves did in the Desolation of Smaug). Maybe they convince a gold dragon to help them out (so the E6 characters really only need to take on the red dragon's minions and maybe jump in to assist at the very last moment against the main enemy).
A lot of people tend to think of E6 as limiting because of all it cuts out of the game, but I think it adds a great new dimension to Pathfinder, forcing players to use their wits and plan ahead instead of just relying on their mountains of hit points, arsenals of magic items, and reliable access to crazy high level magic.
Excellent advice, and that just furthers the reasons that my table would be very happy to adopt E6. High level monsters become consuming story elements, not just mounds of flesh and treasure. Thanks Headfirst for the great advice!