Goth Guru wrote: I like Jungian psychology, in the sense that even if the stuff you believe were true, you still need treatment. I like Skinner. Behavioral psychology and the conditioning that grew from it, both operant and classical, work every time. It's the only measurable, viable, consistent school of psychology that isn't open to interpretation.
...well, that and biological/pharmacological, but even that can vary from person to person.
JonGarrett wrote:
The thought has crossed my mind that it's one of those, yes. But if it's accurate them I'm extremely high functioning. Most of the time, for example, I know that hallucinations I have aren't real, although the tactile ones are more...awkward in that regard. Although it has led to a few awkward moments when I assumed something wasn't real when it was...
Honestly, I really think the doctors simply didn't believe me and didn't want to say so. I'm 6ft 3 and not exactly skinny. I think they thought my irritation and frustration were anger or something, and that I'd get violent. You could certainly be right about all that. I would agree with Goth Guru that a second diagnosis could be worth pursuing.
The thing about schizophrenia is that you don't necessarily need to believe the hallucinations are real. Like I said a few posts up, there's this perception that crazy people never know they are crazy. In reality, it is perfectly possible to hallucinate and know it's a hallucination. In fact, I've read that the hallucinations of some schizophrenic people are so mundane that the reason they don't recognize them as such is because they are utterly ordinary.
For example, maybe you're watching television and a family member walks in the room and you two start talking. Nothing weird there. But suddenly you remember the family member had left an hour ago, and couldn't possibly be in the room with you.
Another very common symptom is "hearing voices." And here's a cool thing (again, keeping in mind my definition of cool is... unique): I've read theories that far more people hear voices in their heads than we know.
And why is that?
Because hearing voices is the classic, telltale, stereotypical signal for being nuts*. I read a book a few years back, forget the title. The author's father was "normal" in every regard: normal childhood, normal family, normal career. Maybe a pilot? But late in his life, the father revealed that his entire life he heard these voices in his head. He never believed they were ghosts or aliens or whatever; he knew damn well they were purely in his head. But of course he couldn't tell anyone.
Anyway I'm veering off topic a bit. I guess my point is not to look to Hollywood or pop culture for an idea of what schizophrenia is or isn't.
*EDIT: Improperly so, just to be clear.
thegreenteagamer wrote: Goth Guru wrote: I like Jungian psychology, in the sense that even if the stuff you believe were true, you still need treatment. I like Skinner. Behavioral psychology and the conditioning that grew from it, both operant and classical, work every time. It's the only measurable, viable, consistent school of psychology that isn't open to interpretation.
...well, that and biological/pharmacological, but even that can vary from person to person. me too.
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One last thing I'll say about schizophrenia: I think it is the single most stigmatized mental illness in the western world. I know I've harped a fair bit about stigma, but people like me with depression and OCD have nothing to complain about compared to those of us with schizophrenia.
Here's one reason why. Let's say someone gets a formal schizophrenia diagnosis and their family and/or close friends learn about it. It is very likely those loved will be looking - intentionally or not - for signs that the schizophrenic person is having problems. And because the schizophrenic person isn't oblivious, he is going to pick up real fast that he's now under the microscope.
And that additional little stress? That one factor? It has been shown to statistically up a schizophrenic person's chances of having a major episode. Same with bipolar disorder.
So simply being around people that know about your mental illness can indirectly make you worse. That sucks just so much.
That's also why family counseling can be so valuable. Families can learn what the major warning signs are, while also learning how to not treat their loved one like he's a delicate flower or a ticking time-bomb.
Meh. Rant over.
No animal/vermin phobias here. If I see a spider, I'll scoop it up with a piece of paper, throw it outside my house (just so I don't stomp on it by mistake). If people are screaming because wasp flew into the room I'll attempt to hit it/chase it away with rolled up newspaper. Else I'll ignore it.
Generic Villain wrote: thegreenteagamer wrote: ...I hate my brain so much. It's like a Bethesda game - amazing, but shipped out with way too many damn bugs. I have a ridiculous IQ and I can learn anything like it's a joke, but I can't even hold a mediocre job. I'd trade it all in a heartbeat to just be "normal." I can absolutely relate. Except I wonder - if I were suddenly normal, how much would I still be me? Would I be happier, more at peace with the world, more able to function in a manner that society deems appropriate? Almost definitely. But at the same time, what would I lose? A "Chose your disability/disabilities" kinda like a game?
Belle Sorciere wrote: Sissyl wrote: Not to mention personality disorders are a rather outdated concept. In all likelihood, they are other disorders or neurophychological handicaps. Fortunately, the DSM-5 dragged psychiatry into the 20th century by eliminating the concept of personality disorders as "axis 2 disorders." I believe they're all axis 1 now, which is where mental illness goes.
DSM-5... you mean the thing that put Parental Abandonment as a mental illness for the kids? And sounds like it was sponsored by meds/drugs companies?
Insane KillMaster wrote:
DSM-5... you mean the thing that put Parental Abandonment as a mental illness for the kids? And sounds like it was sponsored by meds/drugs companies?
Well, setting aside that my comment was specifically about changes in how personality disorders are defined, could you provide a link for this? I just did a google search and couldn't find anything.
Generic Villain wrote: The thing about schizophrenia is that you don't necessarily need to believe the hallucinations are real. Like I said a few posts up, there's this perception that crazy people never know they are crazy. In reality, it is perfectly possible to hallucinate and know it's a hallucination. Indeed - anosognosia (lack of insight into one's symptoms) happens in about 50% of people with schizophrenia. Also, anosognosia can happen during episodes but not continue after episodes. Or it can happen period and fade with medication. A lot of people - including some psych professionals - believe that anosognosia is a required component of psychosis, but the reality is not so simple.
Generic Villain" wrote: One last thing I'll say about schizophrenia: I think it is the single most stigmatized mental illness in the western world. I know I've harped a fair bit about stigma, but people like me with depression and OCD have nothing to complain about compared to those of us with schizophrenia.
Here's one reason why. Let's say someone gets a formal schizophrenia diagnosis and their family and/or close friends learn about it. It is very likely those loved will be looking - intentionally or not - for signs that the schizophrenic person is having problems. And because the schizophrenic person isn't oblivious, he is going to pick up real fast that he's now under the microscope.
And that additional little stress? That one factor? It has been shown to statistically up a schizophrenic person's chances of having a major episode. Same with bipolar disorder.
So simply being around people that know about your mental illness can indirectly make you worse. That sucks just so much.
That's also why family counseling can be so valuable. Families can learn what the major warning signs are, while also learning how to not treat their loved one like he's a delicate flower or a ticking time-bomb.
Meh. Rant over.
Plus what's a common "go-to" word when describing someone who is dangerous and potentially violent? "Psychotic." A lot of people seem to think it basically means "violent psychopath." Or just plain "dangerously violent." I seem to recall getting into an argument on another forum where someone stated that chaotic evil is the most psychotic alignment.
There's a lot of stigma associated with schizophrenia, and it is pretty frustrating to deal with it.
Belle Sorciere wrote: Insane KillMaster wrote:
DSM-5... you mean the thing that put Parental Abandonment as a mental illness for the kids? And sounds like it was sponsored by meds/drugs companies?
Well, setting aside that my comment was specifically about changes in how personality disorders are defined, could you provide a link for this? I just did a google search and couldn't find anything. They kinda treat the side effects of parental abandonment as natural mental health problems, like if the kids were born with those.
And when there is an increase in suggesting drugging people, and a decrease in suggesting therapy...
Insane KillMaster wrote: Belle Sorciere wrote: Insane KillMaster wrote:
DSM-5... you mean the thing that put Parental Abandonment as a mental illness for the kids? And sounds like it was sponsored by meds/drugs companies?
Well, setting aside that my comment was specifically about changes in how personality disorders are defined, could you provide a link for this? I just did a google search and couldn't find anything. They kinda treat the side effects of parental abandonment as natural mental health problems, like if the kids were born with those.
And when there is an increase in suggesting drugging people, and a decrease in suggesting therapy... Mental health issues have multiple etiologies. Some are due to experiences (PTSD and trauma, for example), some seem to be hereditary (schizophrenia can be, for example), and some might be a combination of both - a vulnerability to the issue and the experience that triggers it. I'm not sure that just describing mental health problems due to parental abandonment (which can be very real) means they're being described as if the kids were born with those. Also, all mental health problems are natural.
As far as an increase in suggesting "drugging people*" or the aforementioned description of parental abandonment, could you provide a more substantial citation? I'd like to see what you're talking about for myself.
* And I kind of wonder about the phrasing of "drugging people" given how much stigma psych meds have despite what they do for people. I am more functional thanks to psych meds than I would be without them, and I certainly don't feel "drugged."
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Belle Sorciere wrote: Mental health issues have multiple etiologies. Some are due to experiences (PTSD and trauma, for example), some seem to be hereditary (schizophrenia can be, for example), and some might be a combination of both - a vulnerability to the issue and the experience that triggers it. I'm not sure that just describing mental health problems due to parental abandonment (which can be very real) means they're being described as if the kids were born with those. Also, all mental health problems are natural.
As far as an increase in suggesting "drugging people*" or the aforementioned description of parental abandonment, could you provide a more substantial citation? I'd like to see what you're talking about for myself.
* And I kind of wonder about the phrasing of "drugging people" given how much stigma psych meds have despite what they do for people. I am more functional thanks to psych meds than I would be without them, and I certainly don't feel "drugged."
I know, and I know natural ones can be triggered and/or worsened by outside circumstances, like parental abandonment, bullying, etc.
Drugging over drugging+therapy(+ potential change of surrounding).
But what is the diagnosis that describes parental abandonment? Googling doesn't find anything for me. I'm really not trying to be adversarial, I am just increasingly curious.
Also, thank you for clarifying.
Belle Sorciere wrote: But what is the diagnosis that describes parental abandonment? Googling doesn't find anything for me. I'm really not trying to be adversarial, I am just increasingly curious. For what I heard, the DSM-5 kinda suggest "to stop blaming the parents for the problems they cause to their children", it does come with the "more Ritalin"... and it gets more WTF from there. Not sure how much of it is true.
Insane KillMaster wrote: Generic Villain wrote:
I can absolutely relate. Except I wonder - if I were suddenly normal, how much would I still be me? Would I be happier, more at peace with the world, more able to function in a manner that society deems appropriate? Almost definitely. But at the same time, what would I lose?
A "Chose your disability/disabilities" kinda like a game?
At no point did I mention a choice or a game. It is what it is. I just wonder how much "it" has influenced who I am today.
Belle Sorciere wrote:
* And I kind of wonder about the phrasing of "drugging people" given how much stigma psych meds have despite what they do for people. I am more functional thanks to psych meds than I would be without them, and I certainly don't feel "drugged."
Yes, this! This so much. My meds allow me to cope with my issues, as do mental exercises learned from therapy. I'm not wandering around in a drugged stupor (unless the "meds" I took were of a different variety... hehe). The important thing is to match the right meds with the right person, because not every medication is right for everybody.
Psych meds are not a matter of "take this and you will become a new and different person." I have heard anecdotally that they can cause dramatic personality changes, but it is in those cases wherein the meds need to be changed. There was a huge scare in the 90s/00s about antidepressants causing - directly or indirectly - adolescent suicide attempts. Like so many scares, this one was overblown and did far more harm than good. Looking back on the evidence, there does seem to sometimes be a slight correlation (though NOT causation) between starting a regiment of antidepressant meds and suicidal ideation. However, these were not the norm. They were outliers. In the same way that driving a car sometimes results in car accidents, antidepressant meds sometimes might contribute to thoughts of committing suicide. But statistically speaking, the benefits far outweigh the risks.
Alas that slight correlation was enough to set back antidepressant research and funding a great deal, while simultaneously frightening many parents enough to refuse to medicate their clinically depressed children. Very likely to those children's detriment.
Anyway, like you Belle Sorciere, I am thankful for my psych meds.
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Interesting article I saw earlier. I imagine it will probably be a while before it becomes broadly available.
Generic Villain wrote: Insane KillMaster wrote: Generic Villain wrote:
I can absolutely relate. Except I wonder - if I were suddenly normal, how much would I still be me? Would I be happier, more at peace with the world, more able to function in a manner that society deems appropriate? Almost definitely. But at the same time, what would I lose?
A "Chose your disability/disabilities" kinda like a game?
At no point did I mention a choice or a game. It is what it is. I just wonder how much "it" has influenced who I am today. I know, but I was thinking: "what if I could trade problem/disability X, for a problem/disability that cause me less trouble?" instead of "being normal".
Insane KillMaster wrote:
I know, but I was thinking: "what if I could trade problem/disability X, for a problem/disability that cause me less trouble?" instead of "being normal". Ah okay, sorry then - mistook your meaning.
Suicidality and depression is complex. If someone is depressed enough, they will not kill themselves, simply because they can't focus enough energy to do it. Will, impulse, drive, all these are things that are hampered by depression. The desire to die depends to some degree on the depression, how it makes you feel. The dangerous part is if you feel everything is hopeless AND have energy to do things.
When a depression ends, in whatever way, you will regain your drive before you start to actually feel better. And that is when it happens. Most of the time, it's "he was finally starting to get better".
Increased suicidal ideation is not necessarily a consequence of medication, but likely a result of getting better from depression. That is why you need close follow-up when you start antidepressants. If you don't treat the depression, you will pass through this phase with no follow-up, at a random time. I have a hard time seeing that as better.
In an episode of The Blacklist, Red says that all suicides are like a suicide bomber. You don't solve your problems, you make a bigger mess that others have to deal with.
Believe it or not, it doesn't solve all your problems either. Someone asked me how do I remember my past lives? Was it hard? No, I just stopped trying to forget. It takes a lot of effort for the flat earth society to find ways for evidence of the real shape of the earth to have been faked.
When I dream that my Mom is still alive, the dream falls apart very fast because it all falls apart.
Goth Guru wrote: In an episode of The Blacklist, Red says that all suicides are like a suicide bomber. You don't solve your problems, you make a bigger mess that others have to deal with.
I think about suicide pretty frequently - another common schizoid personality trait. It's evolved from depressing, overly dramatic thoughts to simple pragmatism. In fact, I'd say it's become a coping mechanism. A healthy one? Perhaps not, but when things become very stressful, the thought of a way out is actually like an emergency pressure release valve. I've heard that people who cut themselves without suicidal intentions do so for similar reasons.
Anyway, to your point, the thing that keeps me from pulling the proverbial trigger is first, I don't own a gun and I likely never will precisely so that trigger remains proverbial. More importantly, I know that I would only be devastating the lives of the people that cared about me.
I don't believe in past lives, or afterlives. I think our time as conscious beings capable of experiencing the world is preceded by, and proceeded by, insensate oblivion. That consideration is actually another comfort for me. Which is to say, I'm here and aware very temporarily, so may as well see how long I can go.
And hey I might be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Just pretty sure I'm not.
Well, I will say that back when I was severely, clinically depressed the bit the seemed to shock the intake nurse out of, not indifference... I'm not sure the right term, but sit bolt upright and really focus was when they asked if I had thoughts of killing myself I said something along the lines of: "Yes, but that would make the pain stop."
Norman idea if it was just weird or was some sort of red flag.
They could have been upset, because it went against their theories, they were interested for that reason, or they thought you were intentionally baiting them.
I inherited some guns, so I gave them to a family member in the military. The temptation to commit suicide was one factor. That I had a hard time firing them was another.
So the state I live in just cut another half of a million from our local mental health agency. They were stretched as it is.
Makes me wish I could move but I know this sort of thing is happening nationwide.
Ack, Molten Dragon. Yeah, that stuff happens far too often. I hope you can still access services you need.
Krensky wrote: Well, I will say that back when I was severely, clinically depressed the bit the seemed to shock the intake nurse out of, not indifference... I'm not sure the right term, but sit bolt upright and really focus was when they asked if I had thoughts of killing myself I said something along the lines of: "Yes, but that would make the pain stop."
Norman idea if it was just weird or was some sort of red flag.
If you say that you're thinking of committing suicide to any health professional or police officer, they are required to take action. That's why the confidentiality that exists between a psychologist/iatrist and their patient has one very important exception: if the doctor believes you may be a harm to yourself or others. They are required by law to treat that as a very serious matter and must report it to the proper authorities and otherwise act as if it were legitimate threat.
So to answer your question, yes. That was a huge red flag.
Well all they did was make note of my Prozac prescription and make an appointment for therapy. It's been close to two decades, so I might have said no, that would etc. My words are fuzzy, their reaction is what stuck in my mind.
Krensky wrote: Well all they did was make note of my Prozac prescription and make an appointment for therapy. It's been close to two decades, so I might have said no, that would etc. My words are fuzzy, their reaction is what stuck in my mind. Yeah I don't know what your situation was obviously. Just confirming that the moment you say "I'm thinking of suicide," that's going to be a big deal for doctors. And rightfully so, I'd add. One of the primary warning signs of a suicide attempt is someone saying they are considering killing themselves. Intuitive enough I guess.
I've said several times I was considering suicide to therapists, and the responses have varied from brushing it off (this therapist said 50% of people in the US have suicidal ideation, which I know is a lie) to trying to shame me out of suicidal ideation but only succeeding in silencing my attempts to explain my problems and eventually firing the therapist. Once during intake someone took me seriously enough to ask if I thought I was a danger to myself and basically said she had a crisis team ready to handle me if I was likely to attempt suicide within the next few days.
I've had fairly constant suicidal ideation over the past 20 years, and suicide attempts going back to when I was 12 years old, so I'm always kind of surprised and saddened when a professional doesn't take that seriously.
Belle Sorciere wrote: I've said several times I was considering suicide to therapists, and the responses have varied from brushing it off (this therapist said 50% of people in the US have suicidal ideation, which I know is a lie) to trying to shame me out of suicidal ideation but only succeeding in silencing my attempts to explain my problems and eventually firing the therapist. Once during intake someone took me seriously enough to ask if I thought I was a danger to myself and basically said she had a crisis team ready to handle me if I was likely to attempt suicide within the next few days.
I've had fairly constant suicidal ideation over the past 20 years, and suicide attempts going back to when I was 12 years old, so I'm always kind of surprised and saddened when a professional doesn't take that seriously.
Sigh. Yeah, I guess I aught to have said health providers SHOULD always treat someone talking about suicide as a big deal.
I can relate with you a bit on your frustrations with therapists. I remember one time telling a psychologist or therapist exactly why I did something (specifics don't matter), and she outright said "I think you did it for this other, totally unrelated reason." I was like really? So you're completely ignoring what I JUST said, when I've shown no predilection for lying, and replacing it with your own theory? Fuc... freaking fascinating! I was 15, had just attempted suicide, and was in a psych ward.
No, I'm not still bitter about it at all! :D
As for your former therapist's statement that 50% of those in the U.S. have suicidal ideation, I totally believe it... but only if by that they meant that half of Americans have thought about suicide at least once in their life. It's one thing to consider it at some point - everyone whose been a teenager can likely relate - and an entirely different matter when those thoughts become your constant companion. Two hugely different situations there.
And if you happen to be a woman, congratulations! You're a solid candidate for having your issues waved off as "hysteria lol." Guys on the other hand, get the "men are tough and need to suck it up" thing. Obviously not all, or hopefully even most, healthcare providers believe this outdated and potentially dangerous crap, but research has shown that a statistically significant number just might.
*EDIT: Felt like I needed to show my work a bit for that last statement.
"Experts say more women than we know walk out of doctors' offices feeling that their symptoms haven't been taken seriously. They are told that their complaints are all in their heads or that everything will be fine if they would just stop worrying."
"Empirical evidence shows that low treatment rates [for depression] for men cannot be explained by better health, but must be attributed to a discrepancy between perception of need and help-seeking behavior. It is argued that social norms of traditional masculinity make help-seeking more difficult because of the inhibition of emotional expressiveness influencing symptom perception of depression."
Belle Sorciere wrote: I've said several times I was considering suicide to therapists, and the responses have varied from brushing it off (this therapist said 50% of people in the US have suicidal ideation, which I know is a lie) to trying to shame me out of suicidal ideation but only succeeding in silencing my attempts to explain my problems and eventually firing the therapist. Once during intake someone took me seriously enough to ask if I thought I was a danger to myself and basically said she had a crisis team ready to handle me if I was likely to attempt suicide within the next few days.
I've had fairly constant suicidal ideation over the past 20 years, and suicide attempts going back to when I was 12 years old, so I'm always kind of surprised and saddened when a professional doesn't take that seriously.
I would say the number does hover around there, yes. But shaming someone out of suicidal ideation is just as bad as ignoring it. Professionally speaking, even the most whimsical of suicidal ideations is taken with incredible seriousness at every place I work. It is not a joke, and most people who say it as one or hear it and treat it as one will find themselves receiving services/working someplace else very, very soon.
I think The number is much lower than 50% although I forget the precise percentage. But most certainly half the population doesn't experience the kind of ideation that got me diagnosed with severe mdd. I believe half or more think about it at some point like Generic Villain said, though. I have been surprised every time a therapist brushed it off or tried to shame me for it.
Also, Generic Villain, I've had the experience of a therapist dismissing my stated thinking in favor of her theory. It's pretty frustrating.
Also years of chronic pain dismissed as anxiety. Fun times.
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Belle Sorciere wrote: I think The number is much lower than 50% although I forget the precise percentage. But most certainly half the population doesn't experience the kind of ideation that got me diagnosed with severe mdd. I believe half or more think about it at some point like Generic Villain said, though. I have been surprised every time a therapist brushed it off or tried to shame me for it.
Also, Generic Villain, I've had the experience of a therapist dismissing my stated thinking in favor of her theory. It's pretty frustrating.
Also years of chronic pain dismissed as anxiety. Fun times.
I think you're spot on to your first point. The idea of "maybe I should kill myself" is probably close to universal. Far fewer of us have that thought on a weekly or even daily basis, however.
And I have to say as a gay man whose friends are almost all straight dudes... I still have so much sympathy for women. Like, I have very little interaction with you double-X types in a social context and none in a romantic one, but it's still so glaringly obvious to me that ladies get the short end of the stick. If they're lucky. But that's another matter I guess...
I did find a study once that stated like 50% of university students have suicidal ideation due to sheer stress.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
When I go to the [u]dark[/u] places it's really dark, scary, and I have to hit 'bottom' and then 'rebound'.
As someone noted above, part of that process is the thought of self-termination, only the barest of instances, though, as the realization that I'm not going to give anyone the satisfaction of taking myself out is usually the bootstrap I need to 'level out'-ish.
Just a Mort wrote: No animal/vermin phobias here. If I see a spider, I'll scoop it up with a piece of paper, throw it outside my house (just so I don't stomp on it by mistake). If people are screaming because wasp flew into the room I'll attempt to hit it/chase it away with rolled up newspaper. Else I'll ignore it. So I gotta ask. What's a newspaper? ;p
KenderKin wrote: Krensky wrote: It's amazing how many people still believe in the pseudoscience party game bull crap that is the MBTI. But they made it so much fun!
As a "personality test" it doesn't pathologize and everyone feels good about the results.
The idea of a continuum between introversion and extroversion is good to know,
If you already know yourself then you gain nothing from the MBTI...which makes me wonder how it offends you? Maybe you took it and gained nothing and feel cheated.
They now even use it in business and to help people work together, like I said it is entertainment and fun to do.
No, the real question is - Which of the 16 types thinks the MBTI is a load of ####?
It would have to be at least one of the 16 types that loathes such an exercise.
<said with a cheery smile and chipper voice>
Oh, you hate the Myers-Briggs? There's category for that and you fit nicely into that type.
:D
Sissyl wrote: Which disease has been created so Big Pharma can sell their drugs? Was visiting my gran the other week and she insists on watching the evening news. It's only a small exaggeration to say that all the commercials were for some sort of medication. Using rapid-fire legalese they each listed potentially awful side-effects, and then prompted the listener to "ask your doctor if __X__ is right for you". So, just from that experience alone I would say marketing is all they've got to make back their R&D investment.
Or how about the 'female Viagra'? Word is that this is all talk and no better results than from a placebo.
These meds are often not a better mouse traps. Hence the big push to "sell" the meds. I see Big Pharma doing these things and think; it might be perfectly legal on paper but is not ethical in execution.
various peeps wrote: stuff 'bout Asperger's Syndrome BigNorseWolf wrote: Or you could just take that criteria off the list? Srsly, right? What would happen to computer science if we medicated the Asperger's out of all the programmers?
Back to the abacus.
That reminds me of a study I read not too long ago. The conclusion was that despite cutting off anyone 1 standard deviation below the norm, average IQ scores for people with AS are slightly lower than for the general population.
While I am sure there are quite a few autistic programmers I suspect that quite a few more programmers are not in fact autistic, regardless of statements by people such as Temple Grandin.
In fact, other research indicates that employment is very difficult for autistic people anywhere on the spectrum, including those who have been diagnosed with AS (or would have been under the DSM-5 criteria), and most are not employed. This is due to a combination of factors that no doubt includes difficulty in getting past job interviews, what with the social impairments that are common across the entire spectrum.
Regarding employment.
Hello ladies and gents,
I find this whole conversation to be very interesting. As someone without any mental health issues, I am not really too surprised that many people playing RPGs have them. TTRPGs provide a great way to direct creativity. Despite some occasional bumps in my life, everything seems to be great and getting better as time goes on.
Now, I happen to be very close to many people that suffer from varying degrees of bipolar, depression, and some other things I forget the names for. My wife and her grandmother, my brother and mother, and two of my very close friends.
I have talked with most of them about it and I have found that the best thing I can do is listen. I cannot truly understand what is going on inside their head, but I told them the same thing I told my friend serving in the Army; I'm here for you, you need someone to listen, someone to hit, someone to play a game with, I'll be here.
Does anyone have any advice they feel like sharing that they have given their friends and loved ones?
EDIT: Seems some part of my first sentence got eaten up and smacked together. Fixed.
Being listened to helps.
Towards the end, I visited my Mom at the nursing home often.
I had to tell her a lot of times that she couldn't go home because we had to sell the place.
A friend told me B12 helps mental functions, and it seems to.
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Belle Sorciere wrote: That reminds me of a study I read not too long ago. The conclusion was that despite cutting off anyone 1 standard deviation below the norm, average IQ scores for people with AS are slightly lower than for the general population. I've read the same. Not an insult on anyone who falls on the spectrum obviously, but yeah.
Here's any interesting one: it's possible that girls are woefully under-diagnosed with autism than boys, perhaps because its effects are more subtle in the former than the latter. There are some theories, but this is the thrust of it.
Also some really interesting first-hand accounts by girls with autism.
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Wraithguard wrote:
I have talked with most of them about it and I have found that the best thing I can do is listen. I cannot truly understand what is going on inside their head, but I told them the same thing I told my friend serving in the Army; I'm here for you, you need someone to listen, someone to hit, someone to play a game with, I'll be here.
Does anyone have any advice they feel like sharing that they have given their friends and loved ones?
I think your first paragraph was absolutely perfect. And not just in regards to mental illness either - I'd say that's honestly a solid way to live life in general. I tend to be the friend in my social circle to whom others open up, and I think it's precisely because I listen to what they have to say, don't make it about me, do my best not to judge, and never try to fix their problems. To extrapolate on your point: you can never know what another person has experienced, what haunts them, what keeps them awake at night. And you certainly can't swoop in and take their troubles away - much as you may want to do precisely that.
Like you, I've had friends tell me about some of their wartime trauma. About being raped. About being shuffled through the foster care system. Men and women whose struggles are like those of a modern Sisyphus. And like you, I listened. That's all. That's all I could do.
There's a beautiful Stephen King short story called My Pretty Pony about a grandfather and his grandson. The grandfather thinks to himself "Only fools give advice, and only fools take advice." It's human nature to want to "fix" one another, especially those we care most for. But I firmly believe that people can't be fixed, because people also can't be broken. We can be hurt, emotionally savaged, dragged through hells of mind and body, tormented beyond measure. But broken? No. I just don't believe it. Pessimist, cynic, nihilist, and pragmatist that I am, I think that people are far more resilient than most will ever know.
That's my long-winded way of saying: I have no advice for you. Just keep doing what you're doing.
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Generic Villain wrote: There's a beautiful Stephen King short story called My Pretty Pony about a grandfather and his grandson. The grandfather thinks to himself "Only fools give advice, and only fools take advice." It's human nature to want to "fix" one another, especially those we care most for. Part of it is the frustration of being helpless to do anything, leading one to try all sorts of 'magical thinking' solutions to the difficulties a friend is facing. Wanting to help, and not feel powerless, is a strong motivator to try all sorts of ill-advised things (including offering some unintentionally terrible advice...).
Another part, unfortunately, is the notion that one size fits all, and that a coping strategy that works for someone *who doesn't even have a problem* will somehow 'fix' what's 'wrong' with someone who very much does have a problem. 'You know what I do when I feel down?' 'No. And I don't care, because you don't have crippling depression. So stop humble-bragging about how you have brilliantly coped with not being depressed all the time.' One size does not fit all, and what worked for one person, once, might not even work for that same person in another situation, let alone for someone else whose circumstances are just amazingly different and in no way comparable.
Even something as reductionistic and 'science-y' as drugs aren't guaranteed to affect two different people the same way, and 'try smiling more' or 'lose weight' or 'go outside and get more sunlight' or 'try to focus on the positives' or 'meditate and do yoga' or 'eat less red meat' are even less reliable.
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Generic Villain wrote: Belle Sorciere wrote: That reminds me of a study I read not too long ago. The conclusion was that despite cutting off anyone 1 standard deviation below the norm, average IQ scores for people with AS are slightly lower than for the general population. I've read the same. Not an insult on anyone who falls on the spectrum obviously, but yeah. Indeed! Not meant as an insult at all. It just seems to me that often people focus on the gifts associated with AS over the difficulties and this can trivialize the latter. I am glad that so many Aspies can find work in an appropriate field and I just wish more could, and that those who can't get past job interviews, or who can't actually work for very long without burning out or have issues that make work difficult or impossible, who aren't intellectually gifted, don't get forgotten or left in the dust.
Quote: Here's any interesting one: it's possible that girls are woefully under-diagnosed with autism than boys, perhaps because its effects are more subtle in the former than the latter. There are some theories, but this is the thrust of it.
Also some really interesting first-hand accounts by girls with autism.
Before her death, Lorna Wing said that the number of autistic girls and women were probably not that much different from the number of autistic boys and men, and that these problems you linked makes it more difficult for girls to be identified. I don't know if her statement is accurate, but I believe the number of women and girls diagnosed is far far below the number of autistic women and girls who exist.
Set wrote:
Part of it is the frustration of being helpless to do anything, leading one to try all sorts of 'magical thinking' solutions to the difficulties a friend is facing. Wanting to help, and not feel powerless, is a strong motivator to try all sorts of ill-advised things (including offering some unintentionally terrible advice...).
Another part, unfortunately, is the notion that one size fits all, and that a coping strategy that works for someone *who doesn't even have a problem* will somehow 'fix' what's 'wrong' with someone who very much does have a problem. 'You know what I do when I feel down?' 'No. And I don't care, because you don't have crippling depression. So stop humble-bragging about how you have brilliantly coped with not being depressed all the time.' One size does not fit all, and what worked for one person, once, might not even work for that same person in another situation, let alone for someone else whose circumstances are just amazingly different and in no way comparable.
Even something as reductionistic and 'science-y' as drugs aren't guaranteed to affect two different people the same way, and 'try smiling more' or 'lose weight' or 'go outside and get more sunlight' or 'try to focus on the positives' or 'meditate and do yoga' or 'eat less red meat' are even less reliable.
Yeah absolutely to like, all that. Here's the exact Stephen King quote, said in-character:
"I stopped giving advice a long time ago," he said. "Thirty years or more, I guess. I stopped when I noticed only fools gave it and only fools took it. Instruction, now... instruction's a different thing. A smart man will give a little from time to time, and a smart man — or boy — will take a little from time to time."
It seems like everyone is so ready to advise one another on so many matters, but in my opinion, advice is only valuable to the giver because he or she had the experience that made it meaningful. It's one thing for your buddy to suggest you 'meditate and do yoga,' but another entirely when a doctor or psychologist says it. That doesn't necessarily mean the latter are correct, but their training at least gives them the authority to instruct rather than merely advise.
I was wondering when someone was going to mention the pretty pony thing.
Whether you want to call it instruction or advice or scripture or whatever, listening and responding to what was said earnestly and humbly does some good. It may not be enough good, by far. But it does some good.
Freehold DM wrote: I was wondering when someone was going to mention the pretty pony thing.
Whether you want to call it instruction or advice or scripture or whatever, listening and responding to what was said earnestly and humbly does some good. It may not be enough good, by far. But it does some good.
I don't like complaining (that's a lie, I love complaining), but my ex was the opposite of this so freakin' hard. In the first years of our relationship I would open up to him about difficulties big and small, and his immediate reaction was to try and solve my problems for me. Oftentimes before I even finished my thoughts. I needed to stop being down all the time, needed to think happy thoughts instead of brooding, needed to stop obsessing (he knew I had OCD), needed to stop sacrificing animals in the living room to honor mighty Shub-Niggurath*, etc.
Was he technically wrong in his "advice"? Nope. But telling me to stop being depressed or having OCD is a bit like telling a blind person to try really hard and maybe they'll be able to see. If he had just let me vent my frustrations, it would have been cathartic. Instead all he did was piss me off and stop confiding in him.
*Like Hell I'm not going to feed the Black Goat with a Thousand Young...
Some autistic women may be mistaken for shy, while people who like butchering animals might become actual butchers.
Ever eat a gyro? Yum.
Sometimes there is no cure. Try things till you find multiple ways to manage the condition. Kidding about worse behavior, including fantastic stuff like old one worship, is a way to cope. :)
Sometimes the line is so thin, I can't tell if I'm depressed, really bored and unmotivated, or one is just a symptom of the other...
GTG, I hope you make some progress. Were you eating/drinking/sleeping enough yesterday? Take care.
Wraithguard wrote: Hello ladies and gents,
I find this whole conversation to be very interesting. As someone without any mental health issues, I am not really too surprised that many people playing RPGs have them.
That's very amusing. I assume you have a physically perfect body and have never been sick at all in your life? Not even a common cold? So you've never had physical health issues then.
Everyone has mental health issues. Every Single Person reading this board. And I don't claim to be an exception. However, because of the stigma we attach to them, and our own self assuredness, the vast majority of them go undiagnosed and untreated. Fortunately for many people those untreated illnesses are survivable and can be adapted to. But not everyone is that lucky.
That's why mental health is in such a crappy state on this planet. Because of the very significant stigma, no one is willing to admit to problems they have.... not even to themselves.
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Snakes are always hanging out and surprising people. You should always assume the snake is under the down spouts.
I had a king snake in my yard, and had to put him in a box and set him on the deck every time I mowed the yard. I do not think snakes are pets and strongly dislike venomous snakes.
My neighbor was cleaning up his mess and found a nest of copperheads. I was glad I had my snake to eat them.....
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