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I've been talking over a Starknife build with some friends and the following question was raised:
"If Startoss Comet triggers after a successful hit but Ricohet Toss states that the weapon returns immediately after an attack is resolved, is it possible to use the two together?"
As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack (at your full attack bonus) against a target within one range increment of the first. You determine cover for this attack from the first target's space instead of your space.
When you make a ranged attack with an appropriate thrown weapon, the weapon returns to your hand immediately after the attack is resolved.
Startoss Comet is a special attack, once it's done hitting the target it's still flying in a single (albeit deflected) trajectory, so it bounces into another target. You're getting a free second attack off of the first. The full Startoss Comet attack isn't considered resolved until you determine if that second hit connects, and then Ricochet Toss brings it back.
Startoss Comet is a special attack, once it's done hitting the target it's still flying in a single (albeit deflected) trajectory, so it bounces into another target. You're getting a free second attack off of the first. The full Startoss Comet attack isn't considered resolved until you determine if that second hit connects, and then Ricochet Toss brings it back.
** spoiler omitted **
I've been told to expect table variation due to the wording of "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack" because the reference to a second attack implies the first attack has been resolved. Can you think of any similar abilities I might be able to point to for precedent so that I can feel confident building this character for PFS?
I'd count the entire Startoss feat line as a special action/attack and not a set of individual attacks. As such, I'd expect Ricochet Toss to kick in when Startoss ends.
However, if someone didn't want them to work together, they certainly could read it differently so "expect table variation" is an expected reply.
If you are worried about PFS, you may want to open a thread over in the PFS section. It's possible you could get someone in charge of it's rules to weigh in.
Another thing that can be difficult for throwing, returning, ricocheting etc, is that a Miss doesn't technically have to mean an attack that flies wide. It can just as well be an attack that physically connects, but doesn't deal any significant damage. Ricochets still require something solid to bounce off of. Some storytellers can have difficulty grasping this concept.
Graystone is right, if it's for PFS you should get a pretty good response in their dedicated forum.
Will do, thank you!
Will do, thank you!
You're welcome. Hope you find an answer there that will at least work for PFS. As these abilities didn't come out in a hardback book, it's unlikely we'll ever see an official FAQ but a PFS ruling is a possibility.
Will do, thank you!You're welcome. Hope you find an answer there that will at least work for PFS. As these abilities didn't come out in a hardback book, it's unlikely we'll ever see an official FAQ but a PFS ruling is a possibility.
You say that but they nerfed Fencing Grace back to "I'll just use Dervish Dance", and it was in a soft cover...
You say that but they nerfed Fencing Grace back to "I'll just use Dervish Dance", and it was in a soft cover...Will do, thank you!You're welcome. Hope you find an answer there that will at least work for PFS. As these abilities didn't come out in a hardback book, it's unlikely we'll ever see an official FAQ but a PFS ruling is a possibility.
Ah... You notice it wasn't FAQ'd right? They had to reprint it in a new book to manage that nerfing. So I think I'll stand by that post. ;)
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I'm in the camp that Startoss Comet and Ricochet Toss do not work with each other as written.RAW is VERY subjective.
It needs to be written differently to work, even if the author intended it another way.
I really wish the amount of "bounces" was clarified more officially as well. Alexander Augunas' posts are helpful in seeing the intent, but do not determine the rules.
Sorry for the Necro, but am I to understand that after you take this feat, you can never throw a weapon without it returning to you? Does the option to simply not make use of the feat exist? If you're stuck with an instant returning weapon 100% of the time, then the option to Startoss doesn't even exist anymore, right? But on the other hand, if choosing to make use of Ricochet Toss is an option, then it would stand to reason that you could choose to return it to you after the last bounce.
I want to say that you can choose whether to use your feats or not, but the wording is so severe that I'm unsure. An FAQ would be quite nice
Any feat you possess like this is always optional. It's like Power Attack, Cleave, etc.
I'm in the camp that Startoss Comet and Ricochet Toss do not work with each other as written.
"a ranged attack" means it will happen after one attack roll.
I'd allow it in a home game, but my hands are tied for PFS.
They most certainly are not.
RAW: you do not HAVE to use a feat you possess. Feats "enable" you to do things, they do not require you to do things. You don't have to use the feat if you don't want to (i'd go so far as to say you can turn it on after the last bounce)
RAI: the author of the feat line said they should work together
Power level: its no stronger than an archer and takes about 4 feats.
Any feat you possess like this is always optional. It's like Power Attack, Cleave, etc.Sauce? I agree that it should be, but I'm not seeing rules supporting it.
Benefit: What the feat enables the character ("you" in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
emphasis mine. It LETS you use the feat, it doesn't require you to.