
Douglas Muir 406 |
Players are now APL 8. I'm running (as is my wont) a mix of adventure path, other modules, and home brew. This session they may encounter:
Friendly L9 NPC. I design from scratch.
Shadowcount Sial and his cohort. Cut and paste from the module.
Team Evil, consisting of Rolth the necromancer (cut'n'paste), a gnome demoniac (recurring enemy, level up), a new enemy, an antipal (design from scratch), and some medium-power Grey Maidens (modify from existing GMs). Also, print out their creatures (succubus and carrion golem).
BBEG, the CR 13 Fanglord (design from scratch).
Is it just me, or is this getting less fun and more of a chore as the PCs rise in level? Because when they were, say, 3rd level, this was something I could knock off pretty quickly. But building a CR 13 BBEG from scratch requires a fair amount of time flipping through books and posting on this forum. Character generation is getting longer, and character optimization is getting much longer, and thinking about tactics is really becoming nontrivial.
Presumably this will get worse as the PCs continue to level up. Also, presumably I can mitigate it by shifting more and more to pregen stuff, modules and APs, and introducing fewer homebrew NPCs.
Is there anything else to be said here?
Doug M.

Dren Everblack |

Well first I would say that it helps if you are the type who really enjoys building encounters. I enjoy the challenge of trying to optimize my NPC's and monsters the way my PC's do with their characters.
But mainly I would say - Hero Lab to the rescue! I am not sure if TOZ was referring to that, but if you were I totally agree. The program is not perfect, but for me it made building encounters fun again. I find myself playing with it weeks before my next game.
It is almost like a drug. My computer died 2 weeks ago, and I have been positively depressed not having Hero Lab (and internet access). So much so that my wife actually pressured me into buying a new one. Next week can't come fast enough. I miss you Hero Lab.

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What you've run into Douglas, is the sheer reason that most homebrew campaigns top out before they hit the double digits in levels. The work involved in building encounters takes a steep climb, and it only gets worse as the levels rise.
It could be that it's time to consider winding down the current campaign and either handing the GM reigns to someone else or starting anew.

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The Dungeon Master's Guide is a big help if you need NPCs of varying levels. I've found that character generators help out a lot for recurring NPCs. I usually toe the line when it comes to BBEGs and stat everything out, but they don't fight a BBEG more than once every 5 sessions.
I've also done a lot of fudging and guestimating so I don't have to spec everything out (at level 5, the total attack bonus should be around +10 for a fighter, *roll*, yeah, that was good enough to hit, "Take 12 pts as he breaks through your defenses and stbas you with his rapier.") After all, I'm the only one who sees the NPC character sheet, or even knows if there is a sheet!
However, if you want the level of granularity you're doing now, you'll have to take your lumps and build from scratch. You have to ask yourself, "Is it worth it to stat everything up every time, or can I wing it if it doesn't matter?"

Douglas Muir 406 |
1) A database would be nice, but you'd end up with NPCs of widely varying quality. To some extent I can surf d20pfsrd anyhow.
2) What makes Hero Lab so awesome, exactly?
3) While building the characters is a thing, designing them is the real challenge. Will Hero Lab help me pick the best discoveries for my alchemist bomber, or the best magic item for my BBEG? Will it give me advice as to how they can synergize off each other?
Doug M.

Douglas Muir 406 |
Welcome to 3ed D&D.
Ayuh.
I'm not an "old school gamer". I like 3.x a lot, and I think PF is the best 3.5 by far. Early D&D was riddled with all sorts of nonsense that could make it actively painful to play. This is better in almost every way.
But, yeah, I can get very briefly nostalgic. "7 HD, AC 5, 2d6/2d6" -- boom, monster.
Doug M.

Douglas Muir 406 |
I've also done a lot of fudging and guestimating so I don't have to spec everything out (at level 5, the total attack bonus should be around +10 for a fighter, *roll*, yeah, that was good enough to hit, "Take 12 pts as he breaks through your defenses and stbas you with his rapier.") After all, I'm the only one who sees the NPC character sheet, or even knows if there is a sheet!
Oh, I do this all the time. All, the, time.
But sometimes you have to man up and stat things out, and this particular adventure is very NPC-intensive.
Doug M.

Dren Everblack |

1) A database would be nice, but you'd end up with NPCs of widely varying quality. To some extent I can surf d20pfsrd anyhow.2) What makes Hero Lab so awesome, exactly?
3) While building the characters is a thing, designing them is the real challenge. Will Hero Lab help me pick the best discoveries for my alchemist bomber, or the best magic item for my BBEG? Will it give me advice as to how they can synergize off each other?
Doug M.
Designing the characters will still have to come from you - Hero Lab makes building them faster. You can try out some build ideas and see how they stat out and then with a few clicks, get rid of that and try something else.
Hero Lab does the math for you, and most of the time it gets it right. :-)

Caineach |

Gorbacz wrote:Welcome to 3ed D&D.Ayuh.
I'm not an "old school gamer". I like 3.x a lot, and I think PF is the best 3.5 by far. Early D&D was riddled with all sorts of nonsense that could make it actively painful to play. This is better in almost every way.
But, yeah, I can get very briefly nostalgic. "7 HD, AC 5, 2d6/2d6" -- boom, monster.
Doug M.
Add saves and you can still do exactly this. What has changed is that now you want to have flavorful, memorable NPCs, and those need to be statted up to a little higher detail and have battle plans, otherwise they will not be memorable.

Mournblade94 |

Just kill them. The Paladin of my party found out Laori was working for Zon Kuthon and killed her outright.
I had a primarily good party so they were not about to work with the COunt or Laori.
I know its not a viable solution, but I had the two all statted out, and then my Paladin player goes ahead and kills one of them. I was pretty mad.
Count Sian was no match for my PC's either.
WOrd of Warning though: The Crimson Throne was made with 3.5 rules. If one of your characters is a Paladin built with PF rules, the last two adventures are not going to be difficult. Especially with some of the armor and swords that AP gives. You might have to beef them up if a PF paladin is present.

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It wouldn't be as bad if the increased amount of time designing NPCs led to a longer or more memorable encounter, but half the time the PCs pull out a can of spinach (or a lucky save-or-die effect) and you're left sitting there going, "Well, that was 90 minutes well spent!" while they're going through your latest creation's pockets. And, of course, those pockets will be bulging with gear if you seriously intended your high-level NPC to do more than amuse the PCs.
That said, I really have presented my PCs with a couple of fights that were totally, totally worth the big time investment. The gang of illithid slavers (together with their thralls and guards) was one: the Neutral-aligned NPCs out to recover a relic the PCs had stolen was another. Slow fight, since the number and power level of that gang was about the same as that of the PCs, but it was totally worth it since they got to see a lot of their same tactics (and a couple of new tricks) thrown right back at 'em.

Ice Titan |

Just kill them. The Paladin of my party found out Laori was working for Zon Kuthon and killed her outright.
Every time I hear something like this I imagine a booming voice saying 'LAWFUL GOOD' drowning out anyone trying to ask if the action is morally right.
But yeah, if you don't enjoy making NPCs... it'll become tiresome. Really, really tiresome.
I've gotten it down to a general routine. One thing I do is make making them fun-- I play around with fun builds or powerful builds and new feats from new books, new spells, try to find ways to synergize their abilities. It's fun. It also takes a lot more time than just going Improved Initiative here, Power Attack there, done. At least I don't dread it, though.

Zen79 |

Using mainly NPCs as antagonists is the most work-intense way to do it.
If you would use more monsters of appropriate CRs, you would have much less work.
Another way is to steal ("reuse") NPCs from Modules/APs. Just reflavor them, give them a different look/name, and they will be hard to recognize even if encountered later in their original source.
Hero Lab is great. It makes creting NPCs from scratch much easier. Another great way is to start with a monster of a not-quite-high-enough CR and adding a few class levels with Hero Lab, that's even faster.

Dren Everblack |

Using mainly NPCs as antagonists is the most work-intense way to do it.
If you would use more monsters of appropriate CRs, you would have much less work.Another way is to steal ("reuse") NPCs from Modules/APs. Just reflavor them, give them a different look/name, and they will be hard to recognize even if encountered later in their original source.
Hero Lab is great. It makes creting NPCs from scratch much easier. Another great way is to start with a monster of a not-quite-high-enough CR and adding a few class levels with Hero Lab, that's even faster.
+1 to all of that.

Mournblade94 |

Mournblade94 wrote:Just kill them. The Paladin of my party found out Laori was working for Zon Kuthon and killed her outright.
Every time I hear something like this I imagine a booming voice saying 'LAWFUL GOOD' drowning out anyone trying to ask if the action is morally right.
There was more to it than I literally wrote because it would just be too much to say without anyone caring. I like to view the alignment system as absolutes, so if a that same Paladin wanted to kill Laori because by virtue of worshipping Zon Kuthon she would harm others, I would have no problem with it.

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I'm not suggesting any solutions, but here is what I do to address your concerns...
I use my entire v.3.5 collection of books+Pathfinder Adventure Paths or Modules+GameMastery Guide NPCs+Bestiary I,II+I make my own on Hero Lab.
I tend to think of the power and complexity of high level play as a feature rather than a flaw. Basically, if you can dream it, you can do it.
For example, I whipped up L12 Half-fiendish, Tiefling, Monks for my weekly group last week, and they were like, "WOW, awesome fight!" I did this on Hero Lab.
For example, I take a cue from the old BECM guides TSR made, where at around 11th-13th level I change the types of adventures the PCs go on. During levels 1-10 they are making a name for themselves and going on classic style quests, but at the mid levels a larger portion of the evening is spent in roleplay and intrigue before the major battles. This offsets the work-intensity of preparing a great game.
Finally, its just a fact that being the GM is a lot of work, but tools make it fun and quicker. I cannot say enough good things about Hero Lab. I've owned it since it first came out, and the software basically updates itself, is very intelligent and user friendly, and the Pathfinder RPG pack is very awesome because it has everything we're using from the Core Rule Book, Advanced Players Guide etc.
I spoke with the developers of Hero Lab back when Eric and Jason were first formulating Pathfinder RPG, and they are thrilled to be supporting the game! You get the sense that Hero Lab really understands what gamers, especially GMs, need out of a support software.
After almost 30 years of playing this game, I'm finally comfortable enough to totally create whatever I can imagine, then quickly print block stats or full NPC sheets for all the nasty besties and NPCs I wish to bring to life in my game.
But even if you don't get Hero Lab, I will underscore that your collection of v.3.5. is backward compatible and it doesn't take much to adjust stats for CMB on the fly. And use of the NPC stats provided in the GMG has value.
One after thought... based on your post, you've already got a good sense of encounter building as I can see the BBEG, his lackeys, and the minions you have in mind. At the high levels, I tend to focus more on exotic locations, the story, and roleplay before during and after combat. At you suspect... when the characters ascend to L15-20, it seems like it will be a huge effort, but not really any moreso, provided you readjust your story to play more "high levelish", and take inventory of the resources you can use on-the-fly.
For the higher level play, I view it like this: I'm going to do about the same amount of work planning as before, however, I'm not going to try to plan for all eventualities. I just stay in the moment, and know where I'm going to quickly glance when I need something. This is working so far, as my games are very flowing/smooth in play each week.
At the end of each adventure arc, I probably spend a bit more time just because of my own GM desire to make it awesome, but the burden of planning/preparing is only cumbersome if you let it get to you, or if you don't make a concious effort to relax and flexibly use resources.
Just my 2cp; this is just my opinion, not necessarily the right solution for you.
Pax

Dren Everblack |

Finally, its just a fact that being the GM is a lot of work, but tools make it fun and quicker. I cannot say enough good things about Hero Lab. I've owned it since it first came out, and the software basically updates itself, is very intelligent and user friendly, and the Pathfinder RPG pack is very awesome because it has everything we're using from the Core Rule Book, Advanced Players Guide etc.
I spoke with the developers of Hero Lab back when Eric and Jason were first formulating Pathfinder RPG, and they are thrilled to be supporting the game! You get the sense that Hero Lab really understands what gamers, especially GMs, need out of a support software.
After almost 30 years of playing this game, I'm finally comfortable enough to totally create whatever I can imagine, then quickly print block stats or full NPC sheets for all the nasty besties and NPCs I wish to bring to life in my game.
It sounds like you are very comfortable with "customizing" things in Hero Lab as well. Thus far I have been afraid to try it. I figure I will start small like making a +2 or +4 item into a +3. But eventually I want to add my own custom magic items, feats and abilities. Do you do that a lot? On a scale of 1 to 10 how hard was it to master?

Dreaming Psion |

1) A database would be nice, but you'd end up with NPCs of widely varying quality. To some extent I can surf d20pfsrd anyhow.2) What makes Hero Lab so awesome, exactly?
3) While building the characters is a thing, designing them is the real challenge. Will Hero Lab help me pick the best discoveries for my alchemist bomber, or the best magic item for my BBEG? Will it give me advice as to how they can synergize off each other?
Doug M.
Combat Manager (combatmanager.com) has a database of most of the official/canon npcs and monsters you can customize with a click of a button.
Also, for designing npcs, you might check out various character making guides on these boards.
You can also reskin monsters to save some time. A Giant Quickling could make for an interesting rogue/monk type speedster, for example.