RegUS PatOff |
Also, why would they have the Sniping section in Stealth if you could Full Attack (at range) and then 5' move and gain Stealth?
By the pro-Full Attack and 5' step Stealth side of the argument, you don't need a sniping rule. You can take a full attack with your range and gain stealth again (either by moving 5' or declaring a 5' move to 'hunker down behind cover' in the same square).
A Full Attack is a Full Round action. The fact that you are allowed a special type of movement called a 5' step before, during or after you execute the attacks does not mean you are not using a full round action during your entire round and that full round action is an Attack action. RAW you cannot stealth as part of a Full Attack full round action.
I'd tend to also come down on RAI that this indicates a 5' step isn't a type of movement allowing stealth on any other full round action, but that is my opinion.
Link2000 |
The 5ft step is taken "during" the full round action. Whether or not it is effectively after your final attack does not matter, it is still part of the attacks for the round.
I whole-heartedly believe Akkurscid is correct in this matter.
From the PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
The really big thing to remember is the definition of a round. The enemy is not just standing there while you are slashing away with 2+ attacks, they are also attacking, defending, and making other actions during the same 6 seconds you are doing those things.
MeanMutton |
Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Per quoted rules, I can also choose to 5' step after I full attack.
After =/= during.
You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.
The point that Akkurscid is making is that "After the full attack" is "just before your very next turn". Your "full attack" lasts the entire time up until your next turn.
Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:Quote:casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a [/b]1-round[/b] casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.Quote:In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.A full-round action just uses up your move and standard for your turn. This is clearly exampled by doing a full-attack and then casting a quickened spell as a swift action. You are clearly not full-attacking the entire round cause you're casting a spell after your full attack.
So full-round actions are using your move and standard and are completed on your turn. once they are finished doing their thing. Only 1-round things are actually taking longer than your turn and where you are continuing to do that action outside of your turn. A normal full-round action is done before your turn is done.
Not the case, see Charging... armor penalty of -2... last until your next turn. Why does it last? Your attack is over on your turn.
Running, not able to use stealth... Why not? you only move during your turn.Attacking... "um yeah why does it say attacking? This must not be a thing!" lol j/k
agree to disagree. =)
cheers!!
You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. it lasts because it says it lasts. If it didn't last and only said you have a -2 while charging then your AC would be fixed once your turn was over. You're not charging while everyone else is doing their actions. You charged and "the act of charging meant that you couldn't set up your defensive stance and so your AC is lowered" the rules say your ac is lowered till the start of your next turn. Your attack and the charge is over on your turn, but the penalty lasts because rules say it does.
running you can't use stealth because the rules say you can't. "maybe it's cause you're running in a straight line and losing your dex so you can't do it in a manner that stop people from noticing you doing it." But the reason is cause the rules say you can't, if it didn't then you could cause it'd be stealthing while moving.
So during your actual attack you can't stealth. That means you're visible if you were stealthing or you're using the -20 to the DC20 presence of an active invisible or the DC40pinpointing. After your attack you're not doing those so you're no longer taking the penalty. If you did a standard attack and then moved you were attacking for that penalty to pinpoint, then you moved and had a chance to stealth, so the enemy doesn't know where you are anymore. Same with the 5ft step. It's enough to let you stealth again.
I'm fine with you believing whatever you want. But if you're posting incorrect stuff then I'm going to refute your post.
Chess Pwn |
Snowlilly wrote:The point that Akkurscid is making is that "After the full attack" is "just before your very next turn". Your "full attack" lasts the entire time up until your next turn.Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Per quoted rules, I can also choose to 5' step after I full attack.
After =/= during.
You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.
This isn't true. We can know because a full-round spell is over and done in your turn, while only a 1 round spell has you casting during other people's turns and finishes "just before your very next turn". So since a full-round spell doesn't come off "just before your very next turn" but during your turn we see the rules for full-round and that it's just during your turn.
Link2000 |
You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. it lasts because it says it lasts. If it didn't last and only said you have a -2 while charging then your AC would be fixed once your turn was over. You're not charging while everyone else is doing their actions. You charged and "the act of charging meant that you couldn't set up your defensive stance and so your AC is lowered" the rules say your ac is lowered till the start of your next...
You are absolutely charging while everyone else is doing their actions.
From the PRD:
"The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."
Everyone is acting in the same 6 seconds. And I assure you, moving thirty feet and getting a solid hit takes about 6 seconds. As is "rushing" 60 ft and hitting with some extra momentum.
Link2000 |
This isn't true. We can know because a full-round spell is over and done in your turn, while only a 1 round spell has you casting during other people's turns and finishes "just before your very next turn". So since a full-round spell doesn't come off "just before your very next turn" but during your turn we see the rules for full-round and that it's just during your turn.
Actually, full round spells come into play right before your turn in initiative...
From PRD:
"Cast a Spell
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from 1 round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.
You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don't threaten any squares around you.
This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions.
Casting a Metamagic Spell: Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.
Clerics and druids must take more time to spontaneously cast a metamagic version of a cure, inflict, or summon spell. Spontaneously casting a metamagic version of a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action is a full-round action, and spells with longer casting times take an extra full-round action to cast."
Snowlilly |
Snowlilly wrote:Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Akkurscid wrote:
....stuff...You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.
No, not really, the full attack action lasts the whole round. Any move action you take on that round happens during your "Full Attack" as a matter of fact If you had a skill or something that gave you a second 5' step and another attack on someone else's turn... say an AoO of some kind, you still would be deigned stealth as an option for the round in question, simple because it is the same round.
I would go as far to say if you were teleported into a different dimension, on a round you did Full Attack, you still would be deigned stealth, for the same reason. It's still the same round.
Cheers!!
Except in the specific case where it is stated an event occurs after other actions.
Snowlilly |
Snowlilly wrote:The point that Akkurscid is making is that "After the full attack" is "just before your very next turn". Your "full attack" lasts the entire time up until your next turn.Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Per quoted rules, I can also choose to 5' step after I full attack.
After =/= during.
You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.
And for any other full round action he would be correct.
Taking a 5' step occurs on your current turn and includes a specific clause stating it takes place after your other actions.
MeanMutton |
MeanMutton wrote:This isn't true. We can know because a full-round spell is over and done in your turn, while only a 1 round spell has you casting during other people's turns and finishes "just before your very next turn". So since a full-round spell doesn't come off "just before your very next turn" but during your turn we see the rules for full-round and that it's just during your turn.Snowlilly wrote:The point that Akkurscid is making is that "After the full attack" is "just before your very next turn". Your "full attack" lasts the entire time up until your next turn.Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Per quoted rules, I can also choose to 5' step after I full attack.
After =/= during.
You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.
A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
Link2000 |
But you are taking the movement during the full round action (even if it's after the component pieces of the full round action), that is what is denying you the stealth check. A full attack is a full attack, no matter how much you read into it. The 5ft movement is during the full attack even if it's after the attacks of the full attack.
Link2000 |
A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Quintain |
Quintain wrote:Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Stealth is done as a part of movement. A 5' step is movement. Ergo, you can stealth after a full attack provided you have the conditions (concealment/cover) to do so.
You are considered hidden at the time your stealth check is made, it is not delayed until your next turn. It happens as a part of your set of full attack actions on this turn.
Your turn doesn't end until you are done performing all allocated actions.
Again impossible to stealth during attack. This is in the stealth skill.
Again A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. You are not completely done with your action/s until the next round. Again you are "adding in" you are done attacking at the end of your turn. This is not what is represented in the above sentence, which is a part of the rules.
Completing a full attack action does not end your turn if you have the ability to act -- in this case, acting involves taking a 5' step after you have completed your attacks.
You are not making a stealth check while attacking, you are making a stealth check while making the 5' step after you are done attacking, which is expressly allowed.
Again, making your last attack does not end your turn unless you used your 5' step before your full attack or during your full attack.
MeanMutton |
Akkurscid wrote:Quintain wrote:Akkurscid wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.Akkurscid wrote:No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.Stealth is done as a part of movement. A 5' step is movement. Ergo, you can stealth after a full attack provided you have the conditions (concealment/cover) to do so.
You are considered hidden at the time your stealth check is made, it is not delayed until your next turn. It happens as a part of your set of full attack actions on this turn.
Your turn doesn't end until you are done performing all allocated actions.
Again impossible to stealth during attack. This is in the stealth skill.
Again A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. You are not completely done with your action/s until the next round. Again you are "adding in" you are done attacking at the end of your turn. This is not what is represented in the above sentence, which is a part of the rules.Completing a full attack action does not end your turn if you have the ability to act -- in this case, acting involves taking a 5' step after you have completed your attacks.
You are not making a stealth check while attacking, you are making a stealth check while making the 5' step after you are done attacking, which is expressly allowed.
Again, making your last attack does not end your turn unless you used your 5' step before your full attack or during your full attack.
No one is saying that a full attack action ends your turn. They are saying that a full attack action takes a full round duration to occur which is complete just prior to your next action.
Link2000 |
Completing a full attack action does not end your turn if you have the ability to act -- in this case, acting involves taking a 5' step after you have completed your attacks.
You are not making a stealth check while attacking, you are making a stealth check while making the 5' step after you are done attacking, which is expressly allowed.
Again, making your last attack does not end your turn unless you used your 5' step before your full attack or during your full attack.
It does end your turn, you are just allowed to make other actions while performing the full round action.
Relevant Quotes from PRD, some of which I have posted already:
"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Snowlilly |
MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.
Link2000 |
Link2000 wrote:MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
PRD wrote:You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.
Now lets get to where specific overrides general...
PRD:
"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."
What this means is during the full attack (the full round action being taken) you can 5ft step (a no action, not even a move), before, after, or between your attacks (those are the component actions of the full round action).
You are not "moving", you are "stepping", and you cannot stealth while attacking (or stepping).
Also, I always read my quotations entirely. You are the one picking and choosing. That particular quote was to provide a rebuttal to full round spells being the only thing that takes the full round in it's way, when it is only one of few.
MeanMutton |
Snowlilly wrote:Link2000 wrote:MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
PRD wrote:You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.Now lets get to where specific overrides general...
PRD:
"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."
What this means is during the full attack (the full round action being taken) you can 5ft step (a no action, not even a move), before, after, or between your attacks (those are the component actions of the full round action).
You are not "moving", you are "stepping", and you cannot stealth while attacking (or stepping).
Also, I always read my quotations entirely. You are the one picking and choosing. That particular quote was to provide a rebuttal to full round spells being the only thing that takes the full round in it's way, when it is only one of few.
Stepping is moving.
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
Akkurscid |
Link2000 wrote:MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
PRD wrote:You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.
You are totally ignoring the "can't use stealth while attacking" thing.
Moving at all is totally not the point. If you Full Attack you can't Stealth.Link2000 |
Combat Actions wrote:Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
Fair Enough.
Still doesn't fix the fact that a Full Attack action would forgo your ability to make a stealth check, as a 5ft step is part of a full attack action.
ShieldLawrence |
What is the difference between a spell with a "one round" cast time and a "full round action" cast time?
If it's "one round" in comes in to effect at the beginning of your next turn. You're casting for the entire round.
If it's a "full round action" the effects happen on your turn after the action. You are not casting for the entire round.
Similarly, you are not attacking for the entire round with a full attack.
Check out Akkurscid's post above for the rules text. The distinction I made in the parts not bolded under "Casting a Metamagic Spell."
Link2000 |
What is the difference between a spell with a "one round" cast time and a "full round action" cast time?
If it's "one round" in comes in to effect at the beginning of your next turn. You're casting for the entire round.
If it's a "full round action" the effects happen on your turn after the action. You are not casting for the entire round.
Similarly, you are not attacking for the entire round with a full attack.
Check out Akkurscid's post above for the rules text. The distinction I made in the parts not bolded under "Casting a Metamagic Spell."
There is no difference.
PRD:
"A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
Link2000 |
Nevermind, I was correct.
PRD:
"Casting Time
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a swift action.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
Akkurscid |
What is the difference between a spell with a "one round" cast time and a "full round action" cast time?
If it's "one round" in comes in to effect at the beginning of your next turn. You're casting for the entire round.
If it's a "full round action" the effects happen on your turn after the action. You are not casting for the entire round.
Similarly, you are not attacking for the entire round with a full attack.
Check out Akkurscid's post above for the rules text. The distinction I made in the parts not bolded under "Casting a Metamagic Spell."
I think you are misunderstanding the point a bit. Nobody is saying a full round action is like a one round spell cast time, with the damage occurring on the next round... so you can't do anything on this round... They are actually saying you can't do forbidden things on this round. Specifically forbidden is activating stealth.
i.e. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Bill Dunn |
Also, why would they have the Sniping section in Stealth if you could Full Attack (at range) and then 5' move and gain Stealth?
** spoiler omitted **By the pro-Full Attack and 5' step Stealth side of the argument, you don't need a sniping rule. You can take a full attack with your range and gain stealth again (either by moving 5' or declaring a 5' move to 'hunker down behind cover' in the same square).
Let's not confuse staying hidden after an attack while remaining in the same spot with changing location and hiding after making one or more attacks, because that's what you're doing by using the sniping section to try to undermine being able to be stealthy shifting position after a full attack.
Quintain |
You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
After is not during.
And a 5' step has been expressly defined as movement thus allowing stealth.
You cannot stealth while attacking. It does not say you cannot stealth during a full attack action.
During your full attack action, you are attacking and after your attacks, you are making a 5' step and hiding via stealth.
100% permitted by RAW.
ShieldLawrence |
ShieldLawrence wrote:What is the difference between a spell with a "one round" cast time and a "full round action" cast time?
If it's "one round" in comes in to effect at the beginning of your next turn. You're casting for the entire round.
If it's a "full round action" the effects happen on your turn after the action. You are not casting for the entire round.
Similarly, you are not attacking for the entire round with a full attack.
Check out Akkurscid's post above for the rules text. The distinction I made in the parts not bolded under "Casting a Metamagic Spell."
I think you are misunderstanding the point a bit. Nobody is saying a full round action is like a one round spell cast time, with the damage occurring on the next round... so you can't do anything on this round... They are actually saying you can't do forbidden things on this round. Specifically forbidden is activating stealth.
i.e. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
I understand that you interpret the rules as "saying you can't do forbidden things on this round." I disagree, since the stealth rules don't list what you do in a round to matter, they list actions (attacking, charging, running).
You've made it clear how you trace it back to a sentence in the "full round actions" description and how that must explicitly mean you can't stealth, but I'm not going to grasp at the same rules-straws in my games.
The rules don't define a character's round by their full-round actions. That's a construct of the rules you've created. You're free to interpret them in that way, that's fine. Its your game.
Snowlilly |
Snowlilly wrote:Link2000 wrote:MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
PRD wrote:You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.Now lets get to where specific overrides general...
PRD:
"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."
Once again, you skipped the part you disagree with, I emphasized it for you.
You also continue to discount the entry for 5' step under miscellaneous actions.
While a 5' step is not a move action, it is a change in physical location, i.e. movement. The 5' step is explicitly listed as movement in combat, taken in conjunction with a full round action.
Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do something that requires a full round, you can only take a 5-foot step.
Bolded for emphasis.
The Sword |
The verbal gymnastics around before and after is irrelevant. You can't attack and use stealth - see the sniping rule for the exception. What is the point of saying you can't use stealth if attacking, if the assertion that you can attack and then use stealth is true?
What is the point of the sniping rule as a move action if you can hide as a 5ft action. (Incidentally if the sniper wanted to move 5ft Bill Dun they still could because using stealth when sniping is a move equivalent action, not a move action)
It sounds that pro stealthers are trying to have their cake and eat it. The restrictions on attacking are one of the few things that balances invisibility.
Snowlilly |
The verbal gymnastics around before and after is irrelevant. You can't attack and use stealth - see the sniping rule for the exception. What is the point of saying you can't use stealth if attacking, if the assertion that you can attack and then use stealth is true?
Order of operation is important in many things, both in-game and in real life.
What is the point of the sniping rule as a move action if you can hide as a 5ft action. (Incidentally if the sniper wanted to move 5ft Bill Dun they still could because using stealth when sniping is a move equivalent action, not a move action)
It sounds that pro stealthers are trying to have their cake and eat it. The restrictions on attacking are one of the few things that balances invisibility.
With sniping, the opponent is unaware of the point-of-origin. At best, he gets a direction the attack came from.
Akkurscid |
Quote:
You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
After is not during.
And a 5' step has been expressly defined as movement thus allowing stealth.
You cannot stealth while attacking. It does not say you cannot stealth during a full attack action.
During your full attack action, you are attacking and after your attacks, you are making a 5' step and hiding via stealth.
100% permitted by RAW.
Nope...
You cannot stealth while attacking. It does not say you cannot stealth during a full attack action.It doesn't have to...
During your full attack action you are attacking and after your attacks, you are making a 5' step and hiding via stealth.
With this you are ignoring both rules. You just decide that your full attack ends after you made your second attack or whichever.
I understand you might think this a some kind of harsh interpretation but really it's not. I don't have to reword anything. I don't have to say stuff like:
"Entire Round, Doesn't actually mean the Enite WHOLE Round... just the part where I am swinging my sword." (no one actually said this)
All I am doing is copy and Paste from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ and point out where violations of said rules are.
=)
Cheers!!
The Sword |
+1 Akurscid
@Snowlilly: I agree totally... and yet the argument is being made above that it should be harder for a sniper to use stealth than a person standing five foot away who has just hit you with an axe?
Improved invisibility and naturally invisible creatures don't break invisibility. You can cast a swift invisibility as a spell or creatures can turn invisible after an attack. Or a potion of invisibility could be drunk after an attack (with a swift action). However none of these should allow the attacker to use stealth to hide further as they have attacked and you can't use stealth while attacking.
Snowlilly |
Quintain wrote:Quote:
You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
After is not during.
And a 5' step has been expressly defined as movement thus allowing stealth.
You cannot stealth while attacking. It does not say you cannot stealth during a full attack action.
During your full attack action, you are attacking and after your attacks, you are making a 5' step and hiding via stealth.
100% permitted by RAW.
Nope...
You cannot stealth while attacking. It does not say you cannot stealth during a full attack action.
It doesn't have to...During your full attack action you are attacking and after your attacks, you are making a 5' step and hiding via stealth.
With this you are ignoring both rules. You just decide that your full attack ends after you made your second attack or whichever.I understand you might think this a some kind of harsh interpretation but really it's not. I don't have to reword anything. I don't have to say stuff like:
"Entire Round, Doesn't actually mean the Enite WHOLE Round... just the part where I am swinging my sword." (no one actually said this)
All I am doing is copy and Paste from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ and point out where violations of said rules are.
=)
Cheers!!
Please give me your definition of the word AFTER. It is used repeatedly in the RAW specifically in conjunction with 5' steps.
I suspect your definition of the word may be very different from the standard.
Akkurscid |
Link2000 wrote:Snowlilly wrote:Link2000 wrote:MeanMutton wrote:A full-round spell is a specific case where the rules just for a full-round spell explicitly over-ride the general case of how full-round actions work. There's no similar wording around a full-attack action that would over-ride the general wording of how full-round actions work.
From PRD:
"Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions."
Bolded the second part of your quote for emphasis. You need to read the entire rule, not just stop at the part you agree with.
PRD wrote:You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.And added the second quote, from miscellaneous actions.Now lets get to where specific overrides general...
PRD:
"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."
Once again, you skipped the part you disagree with, I emphasized it for you.
You also continue to discount the entry for 5' step under miscellaneous actions.
While a 5' step is not a move action, it is a change in physical location, i.e. movement. The 5' step is explicitly listed as movement in combat, taken in conjunction with a full round action.
Movement in Combat wrote:...
Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action).If you do nothing but move (that is, if you use both of your actions in a round to move your speed), you can move double your speed.
If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed (or three times your speed in heavy armor). If you do
Really good points... but if you read it that way you disregard full attack is a full round action and you can't attack when attacking. "Full attack" doesn't last the whole round only "while making dice" rolls is incorrect.
The Sword |
That is isn't the question. TOZ. According to the arguments above a sniper and an ace wielded could both be visible, but have cover and the sniper who is further away and already hidden would find it harder to hide than the axe wielded.
That is of course if we ignore the rule that says you can use stealth while attacking. Obviously you cannot use stealth during the standard action part of the round that you use to make an attack as it isn't a move action and stealth is part of a move action. Why call it out unless it meant attacking in the general context. It doesn't mention not using stealth and drinking a potion or not using stealth and casting a buff spell. As a result it is reasonable to assume attacking has some special effect that means you can't use stealth on a round you have attacked.
Those arguing for the alternative are effectively saying that the rules for stealth are referring to the fact that you can't use stealth as part of an attack standard action or a full attack full round action. Which is a totally redundant statement as nothing in the rules suggest you ever could.
One fairly explicit interpretation vs one interpretation that requires a redundant statement.
I know which one makes more sense to me.
Akkurscid |
Snowlilly wrote:
Please give me your definition of the word AFTER. It is used repeatedly in the RAW specifically in conjunction with 5' steps.I suspect your definition of the word may be very different from the standard.
After means after but if you want an example:
You are driving in an area where U-turns are illegal. You are at a red light. The drivers manual says "You may proceed when the light turns green." After the Light turns Green... You are still not allowed to make a U-turn.=)
Cheers!!
Akkurscid |
That is isn't the question. TOZ. According to the arguments above a sniper and an ace wielded could both be visible, but have cover and the sniper who is further away and already hidden would find it harder to hide than the axe wielded.
That is of course if we ignore the rule that says you can use stealth while attacking. Obviously you cannot use stealth during the standard action part of the round that you use to make an attack as it isn't a move action and stealth is part of a move action. Why mention if unless it meant attacking in the general context. It doesn't mention not using stealth and drinking a potion or not using stealth and casting a buff spell. As a result it is reasonable to assume attacking has some special effect that means you can't use stealth on a round you have attacked.
Yes Great point. I Was in a different camp before this thread... but now I am pretty sure after all my research the no stealth while attacking thing means you can't activate stealth and use an attack of any kind in the same round... with the exception of sniping. But I am just trying to stay on target with people who reply to me.
The Sword |
Sniping, as well as requiring the attacker to be further away and already hidden also require a move action to use stealth at a -20 penalty.
According to the pro-stealth attackers our axe wielder can do this as a free action with a 5ft step without the penalty when only 5ft away.
If they are both invisible then the hidden sniper has a substantial disadvantage against the axe wielder, or are we suggesting that invisibility allows you to ignore the sniping rules. I can't see that it gives you more than total concealment, a penalty to be hit and a substantial stealth bonus. It doesn't allow you to re-write the rules for stealth.
Incidentally, technically if the target can smell you through extraordinary sensory abilities like scent you can't use stealth
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth." [/prd]
Akkurscid |
The Sword wrote:As a result it is reasonable to assume attacking has some special effect that means you can't use stealth on a round you have attacked.Unless you have some other effect or ability to use stealth, like the target not being able to see you.
a bit off topic
You and I are hiding in a couple of bushes both stealthed there are some orcs. You Snipe them. You fire one arrow and then take a -20 move action to return to stealth the orcs know where the arrow came from but can not see you. I on the other hand use a full attack and fire a magically boosted blankety blank ton of arrows. Then use a 5' step to restealth and move behind a rock. I have no -20 penalty and now have total cover. On the orcs turn I am just as invisible as you except I am not in the same square as before and now have total cover.Its a Ninja comedy =)
Cheers!!
ShieldLawrence |
Sniping is a nice little thing ranged characters can do in lieu of having conditions to re-stealth (cover, concealment, unobserved). It also prevents enemies from knowing where you are! Bonus!
To make the 5' step stealth is definitely better (no penalty) but only possible if you have the conditions to stealth. That level 4 spell we all love to hate is one such way to do it. Otherwise you need to step around a corner on into darkness, etc.
Chess Pwn |
While making you attack, aka while attacking, you cannot stealth. You definitely can stealth before and after attacking, because at those points you're not attacking.
if someone invisible attacks you it is a dc 20 to pinpoint which square it came from
DC40 to pinpoint
-20 for attacking
DC20 to pinpoint which square the attack came from.
If the enemy then stealthily moves (or stays in there square) you don't know where the enemy is, only that they were in that square when they attacked you.
It also means that if there are 2 guards and you successfully snuck up next to them and attacked one the other guard would instantly see you as you can't attack with stealth
Sniping lets you effectively continue to stealth while attacking.
Akkurscid |
Sniping is a nice little thing ranged characters can do in lieu of having conditions to re-stealth (cover, concealment, unobserved). It also prevents enemies from knowing where you are! Bonus!
To make the 5' step stealth is definitely better (no penalty) but only possible if you have the conditions to stealth. That level 4 spell we all love to hate is one such way to do it. Otherwise you need to step around a corner on into darkness, etc.
It's good, but if you have stealth without invisibility then you already have the conditions for stealth at the beginning of the encounter. They don't know which bush you are in but they know you are in the bushes. I am behind the rock but since they didn't see me move there they don't know where I am either.
Akkurscid |
While making you attack, aka while attacking, you cannot stealth. You definitely can stealth before and after attacking, because at those points you're not attacking.
if someone invisible attacks you it is a dc 20 to pinpoint which square it came from
DC40 to pinpoint
-20 for attacking
DC20 to pinpoint which square the attack came from.
If the enemy then stealthily moves (or stays in there square) you don't know where the enemy is, only that they were in that square when they attacked you.
It also means that if there are 2 guards and you successfully snuck up next to them and attacked one the other guard would instantly see you as you can't attack with stealth
Sniping lets you effectively continue to stealth while attacking.
well if some one invisible attacks you, you automatically know where they are. It's your friend that has to make the DC. If the invisible guy moves His DC is 20 and if he is in combat it is -20=0.
Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:well if some one invisible attacks you, you automatically know where you are. It's your friend that has to make the DC. If the invisible guy moves His DC is 20 and if he is in combat it is -20=0.While making you attack, aka while attacking, you cannot stealth. You definitely can stealth before and after attacking, because at those points you're not attacking.
if someone invisible attacks you it is a dc 20 to pinpoint which square it came from
DC40 to pinpoint
-20 for attacking
DC20 to pinpoint which square the attack came from.
If the enemy then stealthily moves (or stays in there square) you don't know where the enemy is, only that they were in that square when they attacked you.
It also means that if there are 2 guards and you successfully snuck up next to them and attacked one the other guard would instantly see you as you can't attack with stealth
Sniping lets you effectively continue to stealth while attacking.
Okay, you know which square, your right it's the friends that needs to make a check. But if they 5ft step then they are done attacking and are now moving and do a stealth check they are stealthing.