Greater Invis, Full Attack, 5' Step - Perception DC?


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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

What is the perception DC for someone under the effect of Greater Invis that took a 5' step away after a full attack action?

Give the person a +22 stealth skill
Has a Armor Check penalty of -2

What if the person making the perception check has the Scent ability?


Perception check DC is Stealth check+20 to pinpoint the square.
If the invisible guy moves so he is still within 5' of the scent guy the scent guy will automatically pinpoint him without needing a perception check. If scent guy moves so that he is within 5' of the invisible guy he will automatically pinpoint the square.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Since they are attacking and moving, the base DC is 0; +20 for being invisible. (if they were not moving, invis is a +40)
Add in the Armor Check penalty of -2 and the final DC is 18.

Dark Archive

Isn't is an opposed check (Stealth vs Perception)? Shouldn't it be +22 Stealth skill + Invisibility modifiers + d20 for the Perception DC?


The opponent would know the square that they attacked from. But then they moved so Then they would need to pass a perception check equal to the stealth roll of the character which would appear to be +20. So assuming they rolled a 10 it would be a DC 30 perception check.


So if the invis person doesn't move at all, after full attacking, he still gets a stealth check?

I'm assuming the invis attacker has to take a -20 on stealth check as if he was sniping.

The Concordance

You can make stealth checks as part of movement. A 5' step is movement, so they are able to make the stealth check.

The Concordance

Matt2VK wrote:

So if the invis person doesn't move at all, after full attacking, he still gets a stealth check?

I'm assuming the invis attacker has to take a -20 on stealth check as if he was sniping.

Sniping is very specific to making ranged attacks. It's used in order to prevent enemies from learning your position from breaking stealth. It isn't necessary with Greater Invisibility, and it's penalties don't apply simply because you attacked.


Matt2VK wrote:

So if the invis person doesn't move at all, after full attacking, he still gets a stealth check?

I'm assuming the invis attacker has to take a -20 on stealth check as if he was sniping.

You can always identify the square that an attack came from. Normally stealth is done as a part of movement, so if you don't move you can't make a stealth check. I would probably allow the invis guy a stealth check if he takes a move action to do it (sort of pretending to move away, but staying where he is) but that is not strictly within the rules.

Also if the invis guy doesn't move, scent will pinpoint him anyway.


Just brought up the scent in case it happens.

What brought this all up is we had a similar situation happen but the assassin would use spring attack and move away, using stealth and Greater Invis. Think we had that figured out and done correctly. BUT..it brought up what the DC would be with the 5' step after full attacking. Digging through the rules on stealth and invisibility led to some confusion on what was allowed and what wasn't.

The big questions seemed to be -
What action do you use to stealth?
*as in, is a 5'step count as a move action and you can stealth during it?
What are the penalties to your stealth checks for using these actions?
What is the bonus to your stealth check invisibility gives you (after your full round actions)?


dragonhunterq wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

So if the invis person doesn't move at all, after full attacking, he still gets a stealth check?

I'm assuming the invis attacker has to take a -20 on stealth check as if he was sniping.

You can always identify the square that an attack came from.

I used to say this also, but then I was challenged to find the supporting rule. Do you have a quote?


wraithstrike wrote:
I used to say this also, but then I was challenged to find the supporting rule. Do you have a quote?

From the SRD under the Invisibility special abilities rules:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Invisibility
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.


You can't move and take a 5 foot step that's in the rules... a 5 foot step as part of a full attack action can not by definition be a move action. Now I don't know if there is a quote somewhere that says you can stealth as part of a 5 foot step after a full attack. If there is I haven't seen it. Therefore I would have to rule, matter of factly, if subject does not/can not take a "Move" action he also can not make a stealth roll. However if he can move he can stealth even if it's part of a spring attack.

Quote:

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.

A creature with the Survival skill and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Survival check to find or follow a track. A creature with the scent ability can attempt to follow tracks using Survival untrained...

"You smell the rogue to your right." "I move to the right." "When you reach this point you know the rogue is in this square." "I bite him..."

If the creature with scent is fighting a creature who is invisible... he would pretty much know where the invisible creature is. The invisible creature would still be invisible with total concealment and all that.


The real problem is this line -

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

in the pathfinder rules on stealth.
So reading that, if using Greater Invis, you can make a Stealth check after full attacking.

Then there's this line -
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Which clearly gives rules for using Stealth while you take a move action to move. Just nothing for the 5' step.

Sovereign Court

Matt2VK wrote:

The real problem is this line -

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

in the pathfinder rules on stealth.
So reading that, if using Greater Invis, you can make a Stealth check after full attacking.

Then there's this line -
You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Which clearly gives rules for using Stealth while you take a move action to move. Just nothing for the 5' step.

I don't see the problem. A 5ft step is movement, so you can stealth. Since

1) you can only take 5ft steps if your normal speed is bigger than 5 and
2) pretty much everything that modifies speed rounds to increments of 5;

a creature taking a 5ft step is almost certainly not moving more than half its speed, so no fast stealth penalty.


Action: Usually none. I disagree it doesn't say free action... it says it's normally part of a move action. Like drawing a sword is normally part of a move action... however it dose not necessarily elevate it to a free action.

Also if you can't use stealth while attacking... you definitely can't use stealth while full attacking.

Sovereign Court

It says it's normally part of movement, not move action.

And you're not stealthing during a full attack, but after it.


we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.


Akkurscid wrote:
we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.

From PRD: "You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

Use of "before" and "after" implies the 5 ft step occurs separately from the full attack action.


Bacondale wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.

From PRD: "You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

Use of "before" and "after" implies the 5 ft step occurs separately from the full attack action.

And it specifically says that there is an "after".....


Akkurscid wrote:
we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.

I can find no rules support for this assertion. You can take free and swift actions after a full attack.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.
I can find no rules support for this assertion. You can take free and swift actions after a full attack.
I get it from this, in the description of a full round action.
Quote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

So if an entire round is required to make a full attack you are attacking for the entire round... there is no "after" my attack, the fact that it says "after" is not relevant in this case, because after you make your attacks and make your 5 foot step, you are still in the same "round" until you return to the top of the intuitive.

EDIT: that's not even technically correct either, your full-round action doesn't actually end until the start of your next turn. There is a difference between the end of your "turn" and the end of the "round"


Akkurscid wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
we'll have to agree to disagree... and there is no "after" your full attack. You are considered attacking until your next turn.
I can find no rules support for this assertion. You can take free and swift actions after a full attack.
I get it from this, in the description of a full round action.
Quote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

So if an entire round is required to make a full attack you are attacking for the entire round... there is no "after" my attack, the fact that it says "after" is not relevant in this case, because after you make your attacks and make your 5 foot step, you are still in the same "round" until you return to the top of the intuitive.

EDIT: that's not even technically correct either, your full-round action doesn't actually end until the start of your next turn. There is a difference between the end of your "turn" and the end of the "round"

This is so full of wrong I don't know where to start.

The rules specifically allow you to take a 5' step. They specifically allow you to do so before, during or after your full round action. The relevant rules are quoted above.
Since the rules specifically mention a 5' step AFTER the full attack (or other full round action) where do you get that there is no after?

You are conflating full round action with 1 round action. The former only happens during your turn. The latter takes place throughout the round ad stops just before your next turn. A Sorcerer casting a metamagiced spell uses a full round action. You cannot interrupt his spell except with a readied action or AOO. That same Sorcerer casting Sleep would take 1 round, meaning that it carries over until just before his next action. That means that every bad guy can walk over to hum and take a swing at him to interrupt that spell.
A full attack works just like the Sorcerer's full round action, it stops when the character's turn ends.


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A 5' step can be taken as part of a Full Attack action. Therefore, that 5' step is part of an attack action. You cannot stealth as part of an attack action. Therefore, you cannot stealth as part of a 5' as part of a full attack.

Note: sniping gives the exception to the general stealth rule that you cannot stealth as part of an attack. It costs you a movement action (not the 5' step of a full attack). Since you cannot use the sniping rules for melee combat, IMO it seems pretty clear that the 5' step as a 'movement' that allows stealth is not a valid ruling.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Quote:

This is so full of wrong I don't know where to start.

The rules specifically allow you to take a 5' step. They specifically allow you to do so before, during or after your full round action. The relevant rules are quoted above.
Since the rules specifically mention a 5' step AFTER the full attack (or other full round action) where do you get that there is no after?

You are conflating full round action with 1 round action. The former only happens during your turn. The latter takes place throughout the round ad stops just before your next turn. A Sorcerer casting a metamagiced spell uses a full round action. You cannot interrupt his spell except with a readied action or AOO. That same Sorcerer casting Sleep would take 1 round, meaning that it carries over until just before his next action. That means that every bad guy can walk over to hum and take a swing at him to interrupt that spell.
A full attack works just like the Sorcerer's full round action, it stops when the character's turn ends.

I'm pretty sure this "A full-round action requires an entire round to complete." means exactly the opposite of your example. It is, by it's own definition an entire full round action.

Edit: I don't mean the damage takes place the round after your turn. However I do mean you are, like I said, considered to be "attacking" for the entire round.


  • The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
  • You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The 5' Step is listed twice in the combat rules, with neither statement contradicting the other.

You can take a 5' step as part of a full-attack action

or

You can take a 5' before or after your other actions.

A 5' step is certainly movement, and if taken as a separate action after the full-attack action would allow the character to apply stealth. If the 5' step were taken as part of the full-attack action it would not allow the character to apply stealth. The way the rules are written, it is the character's choice which mechanical implementation he chooses.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Snowlilly wrote:
  • The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
  • You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The 5' Step is listed twice in the combat rules, with neither statement contradicting the other.

You can take a 5' step as part of a full-attack action

or

You can take a 5' before or after your other actions.

A 5' step is certainly movement, and if taken as a separate action after the full-attack action would allow the character to apply stealth. If the 5' step were taken as part of the full-attack action it would not allow the character to apply stealth. The way the rules are written, it is the character's choice which mechanical implementation he chooses.

You are ignoring one of two rules... It's the two rules together that cause the problem...

Either you are ignoring the stealth rule... ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Or you are ignoring the Full Round Action rule... A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.

It doesn't matter where your 5 foot step comes in, because you are attacking for the entire round and therefore your stealth ability is unavailable to you for the entire round.


I think the main problem here is many people miss the full attack = full round action = take's an entire round = you are not done with your attack action until the entire round has expired.

Needs a FAQ maybe.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Akkurscid wrote:

I think the main problem here is many people miss the full attack = full round action = take's an entire round = you are not done with your attack action until the entire round has expired.

Needs a FAQ maybe.

Attacking is not well-defined. Are you attacking only during the instance of time that you declare an attack action and are finished rolling attack rolls?


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Xethik wrote:
Attacking is not well-defined. Are you attacking only during the instance of time that you declare an attack action and are finished rolling attack rolls?

It depends if you use a standard attack yeah sure then you move or what ever you can do... But not in the case of the Full Attack here is a quote from d20PFSRD.com

Quote:

The Combat Round

Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.

Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)

When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

See the first sentence of the last paragraph? ...When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round.

This one is where the confusion is coming from people miss it or just disregard it.

Now we'll skip down to the actual section where it talks about full round actions.

Quote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

See that First sentence again? A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Some people tend to ignore it or disregard it, even though here it is a second time.

It says you can take a five foot step if there is no other movement, as people keep pointing out, but that 5' does not let you out of the "Entire round to complete" part.

So which actions are included in the full round action? These ones...

If you are interested in any of these they are linked so you can read how they would apply in a full round action. Mind you an action that takes up the "entire round"

Now the only one we have been discussing here is the Full Attack.

Quote:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

If you use this Full Attack option It's condition lasts for the whole entire round... because all of these options do.

You could say if the Player calls for a full attack then after his first attack he changes his mind and uses a standard action then moves.. SURE! He didn't use the full attack option, no one disputing that...

Now we come to Stealth the part we are looking at is where it says...

Quote:

Common Uses

Hide

Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).

See the last sentence of the first paragraph where it says

It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

The whole problem is If you use this Full Attack option you can't use Stealth because you are in a Full Round Action of Full Attack for the whole entire round... not just when swinging your swords. Stealth is unavailable as an option during any of the places where you can take a 5 foot step during this round.

Should add Run is also on the list of Full Round Actions, that you can't use stealth with.

Cheers!!


From all the breaking down of the rules, I agree you can not Stealth with a 5' step after Full Attacking.

Which brings us back to the original Question -

What is the DC to spot (figure out) someone under the effect of Invisibility that takes a 5' step away from you?


Except...

"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."

The rules you cite are in contradiction. By plain english, I am no longer attacking after I have finished my attacks.

There's been discussion on this point before. See here and here.


Well, I came into this thread thinking that the 5' step could occur after your full attack was completely done.

But, Akkurscid, you have convinced me otherwise with your argument. Nice job!

Quote:
You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

There is a simple explanation for this:

You are taking the 5' steps between (or before/after) the individual attacks of the full attack. However, the ENTIRE full attack includes the time before and after all those individual attacks.

To really be a contradiction, it would have needed to say:

"You may take the step before or after your full attack, or between any of the individual attacks."


Blakmane wrote:

Except...

"The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks."

The rules you cite are in contradiction. By plain english, I am no longer attacking after I have finished my attacks.

There's been discussion on this point before. See here and here.

Just going to point out that once again just because the 5' step appears after you resolve your sword swings doesn't count as I am now free from my "entire round" of attacking obligation.

I have read a lot of those discussions and everyone of those pro "stealth movers" arguments ignore the fact that you are locked into a set of actions until your next turn.

It would be like saying that I can still take my turn to do whatever I want while being the victim of hold person or dead, because "I am only under the effects of those conditions while it's someone else's turn, it clearly says in the rules on my turn I can do whatever I want."
You are just ignoring the inconvenient parts of the state of your character.


Matt2VK wrote:

From all the breaking down of the rules, I agree you can not Stealth with a 5' step after Full Attacking.

Which brings us back to the original Question -

What is the DC to spot (figure out) someone under the effect of Invisibility that takes a 5' step away from you?

Just from the rules, it is a DC 20 to spot an invisible character who is moving and within 30 feet... so your +19 perception guy should be able to spot an invisible guy who just walks into the middle of the room doing nothing.

If the invisible guy is was already in the room and is just standing there doing noting and not trying to hide it is DC 40. If he is actively hiding add stealth check to the 40. The rogue my games normally gets into the 60ies.

However if he full attacking, running, or charging... because they are not able to engage their stealth (roll and/or modifiers) while doing any of those 3 things... likely is zero. Its +20 for being invisible and moving then -20 for combat or speaking, (also -20 for running or charging) placing it at zero.

To sum up it's not that great to be invisible and engaging in combat... However they still have total concealment(50% miss) and rogues still get to have sneak attack with all attacks because they have still have concealment. The rogue is just not at DC 96+ stealth, so he is not safe from counter attack. If you are invisible and standing in a den of hyenas, you might possibly be boned.

The Concordance

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The rules don't define "attacking" as a condition. I don't gain the "attacking" condition when I opt for a full attack.

@Akkurscid You've made your interpretation easy to follow, but I'm unconvinced that it is correct. Let's say I used my full round action to charge an opponent, you would say I'm considered "charging" until my next initiative count. Could a character come up and ready an attack with a brace weapon and then immediately use that attack for extra damage? It fulfills the requirements if I'm still considered "charging" and they readied their attack with a brace weapon. I doubt this is the intent.

Actions in combat happen linearly for the most part. I'm moving when I move, I'm attacking when I attack, and I'm casting when I cast a spell. When my action completes, I am no longer considered to be doing that action.

My full attack may take the duration of one round, but I'm not still "attacking" after my final iterative is resolved.


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ShieldLawrence wrote:

The rules don't define "attacking" as a condition. I don't gain the "attacking" condition when I opt for a full attack.

@Akkurscid You've made your interpretation easy to follow, but I'm unconvinced that it is correct. Let's say I used my full round action to charge an opponent, you would say I'm considered "charging" until my next initiative count. Could a character come up and ready an attack with a brace weapon and then immediately use that attack for extra damage? It fulfills the requirements if I'm still considered "charging" and they readied their attack with a brace weapon. I doubt this is the intent.

Actions in combat happen linearly for the most part. I'm moving when I move, I'm attacking when I attack, and I'm casting when I cast a spell. When my action completes, I am no longer considered to be doing that action.

My full attack may take the duration of one round, but I'm not still "attacking" after my final iterative is resolved.

On the charging part yes you are correct you can't "Brace" after the fact because Brace is a readied action, it's"Conditional!" lol there I said it. But the answer is actually yes... how long do you get the minus to your armor class? does it end when your charge/attack ends? The beginning of the round? Nope not until your next turn.

We have to agree to disagree, but once again you are ignoring "entire round" part of full attack.

"Full attack is actually a bunch of standard actions plus a small move..." this is what the pro Full Attack+Stealth argument boils down to. You are changing the conditions of using the Full attack option to suit your purpose.

I am not saying "Attacking is a condition" like grappling...
I am saying you can not activate stealth during a round you agree to a "condition" that takes a full round, in order to get off your iterative attacks. The Full Attack is an action that takes a full round, it's a "Full Round Action" you agreed to this when you swung your weapon the second time.

How can I make it clear we're not talking about "conditions" like in game diseases. We are talking about conditions like in a contractual agreement legal document. "I will do my part on the condition that you do yours" kind of thing.


You know it's funny...
When I decided to get involved in this conversation I just wanted to show the Stealth+Full attack was not a thing.

However after reading and rereading the rules multiple, multiple times... I think the "Intent" of the developers is actually you can't use stealth at all during a round after you do even a single attack.

This isn't because of something specifically spelled out in the rules, but rather it comes from becoming familiar with all the dice checks +20 DC to find invisible guy -20 if he is in combat... How can he be in combat if he moved after his turn? -20 if he is speaking, "Speaking" on not his turn? Sniping is the exception... etc.

Not going to debate this just an observation...

Edit: In the future I will probably take this stance. Looks pretty solid.


I would like to point out that during a "round" everyone is acting within a 6 second time span at about the same time.

The initiative turn order is to make things less chaotic as to how that exactly occurs.

So while Opponent A is charging Player 1, Player 1 is performing a full round attack against Opponent A as soon as he entered reach (Probably trading blows for the first hit, with Player 1 finishing off his flurry).

I'm with Akkurscid on this one. The 5ft step is a non action form of movement, that when combined with a full attack means that he is still attacking, and the 5ft movement was a part of the attack.


Quote:
casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a [/b]1-round[/b] casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.
Quote:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

A full-round action just uses up your move and standard for your turn. This is clearly exampled by doing a full-attack and then casting a quickened spell as a swift action. You are clearly not full-attacking the entire round cause you're casting a spell after your full attack.

So full-round actions are using your move and standard and are completed on your turn. once they are finished doing their thing. Only 1-round things are actually taking longer than your turn and where you are continuing to do that action outside of your turn. A normal full-round action is done before your turn is done.

The Concordance

Chess Pwn wrote:
Quote:
casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a [/b]1-round[/b] casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.
Quote:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

A full-round action just uses up your move and standard for your turn. This is clearly exampled by doing a full-attack and then casting a quickened spell as a swift action. You are clearly not full-attacking the entire round cause you're casting a spell after your full attack.

So full-round actions are using your move and standard and are completed on your turn. once they are finished doing their thing. Only 1-round things are actually taking longer than your turn and where you are continuing to do that action outside of your turn. A normal full-round action is done before your turn is done.

+1


Chess Pwn wrote:
Quote:
casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a [/b]1-round[/b] casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn.
Quote:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

A full-round action just uses up your move and standard for your turn. This is clearly exampled by doing a full-attack and then casting a quickened spell as a swift action. You are clearly not full-attacking the entire round cause you're casting a spell after your full attack.

So full-round actions are using your move and standard and are completed on your turn. once they are finished doing their thing. Only 1-round things are actually taking longer than your turn and where you are continuing to do that action outside of your turn. A normal full-round action is done before your turn is done.

Not the case, see Charging... armor penalty of -2... last until your next turn. Why does it last? Your attack is over on your turn.

Running, not able to use stealth... Why not? you only move during your turn.

Attacking... "um yeah why does it say attacking? This must not be a thing!" lol j/k

agree to disagree. =)
cheers!!


Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
  • The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
  • You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The 5' Step is listed twice in the combat rules, with neither statement contradicting the other.

You can take a 5' step as part of a full-attack action

or

You can take a 5' before or after your other actions.

A 5' step is certainly movement, and if taken as a separate action after the full-attack action would allow the character to apply stealth. If the 5' step were taken as part of the full-attack action it would not allow the character to apply stealth. The way the rules are written, it is the character's choice which mechanical implementation he chooses.

You are ignoring one of two rules... It's the two rules together that cause the problem...

Either you are ignoring the stealth rule... ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Or you are ignoring the Full Round Action rule... A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.

It doesn't matter where your 5 foot step comes in, because you are attacking for the entire round and therefore your stealth ability is unavailable to you for the entire round.

Specific > general, and 5' step specifically states it can be taken after. It states this is both locations the mechanics are discussed.


Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
  • The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
  • You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

The 5' Step is listed twice in the combat rules, with neither statement contradicting the other.

You can take a 5' step as part of a full-attack action

or

You can take a 5' before or after your other actions.

A 5' step is certainly movement, and if taken as a separate action after the full-attack action would allow the character to apply stealth. If the 5' step were taken as part of the full-attack action it would not allow the character to apply stealth. The way the rules are written, it is the character's choice which mechanical implementation he chooses.

You are ignoring one of two rules... It's the two rules together that cause the problem...

Either you are ignoring the stealth rule... ...It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

Or you are ignoring the Full Round Action rule... A full-round action requires an entire round to complete.

It doesn't matter where your 5 foot step comes in, because you are attacking for the entire round and therefore your stealth ability is unavailable to you for the entire round.

Specific > general, and 5' step specifically states it can take after. It states this is both locations the mechanics are discussed.

Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.

Specifically ignoring ... impossible to stealth during attack.
Specifically ignoring ... Entire Round...


Akkurscid wrote:


Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.

No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.


Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.
No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.

Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.


Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.
No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.

Per quoted rules, I can also choose to 5' step after I full attack.

After =/= during.

You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.


Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.
No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.

Stealth is done as a part of movement. A 5' step is movement. Ergo, you can stealth after a full attack provided you have the conditions (concealment/cover) to do so.

You are considered hidden at the time your stealth check is made, it is not delayed until your next turn. It happens as a part of your set of full attack actions on this turn.

Your turn doesn't end until you are done performing all allocated actions.


Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


....stuff...

You are restating the 5' step as described in the full-attack action, but there is a second option that allows a 5' step that is not attached to full attacking.

No, not really, the full attack action lasts the whole round. Any move action you take on that round happens during your "Full Attack" as a matter of fact If you had a skill or something that gave you a second 5' step and another attack on someone else's turn... say an AoO of some kind, you still would be deigned stealth as an option for the round in question, simple because it is the same round.

I would go as far to say if you were teleported into a different dimension, on a round you did Full Attack, you still would be deigned stealth, for the same reason. It's still the same round.

Cheers!!


Quintain wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Akkurscid wrote:


Good point but after the "full attack" happens on your next turn, no stealth this turn.
No; I can 5' step on the same turn I full attack. After I have completed my full attack.
Sure you can 5' on your Full Attack. Just not stealth.

Stealth is done as a part of movement. A 5' step is movement. Ergo, you can stealth after a full attack provided you have the conditions (concealment/cover) to do so.

You are considered hidden at the time your stealth check is made, it is not delayed until your next turn. It happens as a part of your set of full attack actions on this turn.

Your turn doesn't end until you are done performing all allocated actions.

Again impossible to stealth during attack. This is in the stealth skill.

Again A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. You are not completely done with your action/s until the next round. Again you are "adding in" you are done attacking at the end of your turn. This is not what is represented in the above sentence, which is a part of the rules.

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