Venture-Captain, Missouri—Springfield
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I was thinking of a concept character: A Sacred Huntsman Inquistor/Druid/Wizard/Hunter/Witch/Wild Child Vigilante. A young Wayang who loves animals, particularly dinosaurs. I will also be taking Undersized Mounts to ride these animals. So level 6 I would have 3 Companions, 3 Familiars. A few questions:
1) I believe I have this many Animals, but just to be sure, does this sound right?
2) Do similar Familiar Abilities Stack (+2 Initiative and +4 for a total of +6 for an example)
2a) If so, could I have multiple of the same familiar and have those Stack as well?
3) Is this overboard for the GM?
4) Is this Class Viable in Society Play?
And Finally 5) What do you think of the concept?
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Springfield
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Actually, you CAN have multiple Animal Companions and Familiars, BUT you are only allowed to bring 1 into and given Scenario/Module per the PFS rules.
Where can I find that information? I didn't see that in the guide.
Not trying to be rude BTW, I just am more of a visual person. :)
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How many animals can I have at any given time?
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Springfield
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Ok, again suppose I do this Class setup, and designate an Animal Companion as my Combat. Everything else non-combat. Would I continue to et their bonuses outside combat? If so, would those bonuses stack with themselves? Assuming familiars like Cat and House Centipede.
Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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The ruling is in an obscure place, but the Sacred Huntsman Inquistor/Druid/Wizard/Hunter levels will stack to give you one companion of their combined level.
In addition, the Magical Child says its levels count as wizard levels for determining familiar abilities, as do the witch class rules, which suggests you'd add levels in those classes together to get the stats of your one familiar.
The one companion rule suggest that you'd get the familar's bonuses outside of combat, but as soon as the GM calls for initiative, the familiar vanishes. (So don't bother gettting a familiar with an initiative bonus.)
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Springfield
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I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that it is not possible for a character to have more than one familiar.
If I read that FAQ that Pirate Rob linked to right, you can have more than 1, just not all combat. Certan class features don't make sense if you can't.
Example: hunters ability to count it's level for Druid or Rangers.
Witches getting it's spells back by familiar.
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The rules for having multiple combat companions sort of nix this idea. Still, there are ways around it if you really feel the need to have something in your pocket for emercencies.
A Summoner can spam Summon Monster, while having a fully scaled Ranger's companion thanks to the Animal Ally line, and a familiar thanks to Eldrich Heritage (though it clashes with the Animal Companion by PFS rules). In theory, the Eidolon could still be usable thanks to the Summon Eidolon spell. Assuming you have Superior Summoning, you can have around 5 capable combatants on the field in two turns.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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The rules for having multiple combat companions sort of nix this idea. Still, there are ways around it if you really feel the need to have something in your pocket for emercencies.
A Summoner can spam Summon Monster, while having a fully scaled Ranger's companion thanks to the Animal Ally line, and a familiar thanks to Eldrich Heritage (though it clashes with the Animal Companion by PFS rules). In theory, the Eidolon could still be usable thanks to the Summon Eidolon spell. Assuming you have Superior Summoning, you can have around 5 capable combatants on the field in two turns.
And be completely HATED by your GM. Stuff like that is a friggin nightmare.
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And be completely HATED by your GM. Stuff like that is a friggin nightmare.
They key to playing a Summoner or other companion class has always been to be intimately familiar with the rules relevant to your class. A practiced Summoner can run reference a print-card of their summons' stats, make several attacks with them, and then throw out a key buff/control spell in a portion of the time it takes a less practiced fighter to calculate a combination of power attack, enlarge person, heroism and haste in their full attack routine.
Besides, taking a powerful or complex build doesn't require you to go full ham every encounter. Using the Companion as a bodyguard while your Summons do the heavy lifting is nothing beyond what you can do with Core or the Close Orbit books. Some guys just like to bring help to the table.
Issues between GMs and Players happen far less with a little communication. "Hey, I'm going to bring a guy who has a lot of bodies to the field. But don't worry I studied up and I can run my turns quickly." will nip a lot of malice in the bud as long as you can put in a little extra prep work.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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And be completely HATED by your GM. Stuff like that is a friggin nightmare.They key to playing a Summoner or other companion class has always been to be intimately familiar with the rules relevant to your class. A practiced Summoner can run reference a print-card of their summons' stats, make several attacks with them, and then throw out a key buff/control spell in a portion of the time it takes a less practiced fighter to calculate a combination of power attack, enlarge person, heroism and haste in their full attack routine.
Besides, taking a powerful or complex build doesn't require you to go full ham every encounter. Using the Companion as a bodyguard while your Summons do the heavy lifting is nothing beyond what you can do with Core or the Close Orbit books. Some guys just like to bring help to the table.
Issues between GMs and Players happen far less with a little communication. "Hey, I'm going to bring a guy who has a lot of bodies to the field. But don't worry I studied up and I can run my turns quickly." will nip a lot of malice in the bud as long as you can put in a little extra prep work.
Best conjuration guy I know had a binder sorted spell.. performatted and templated in plastic binder sheets with a pen to wipe off hp from as he sent them flooding into killing everything he surveyed. Even had various forms of his eidolon planned out.
First encounter of EoTT? HE did his stuff faster than the fighter did..and he had like 6 Foo Lions running around eating goons.
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Best conjuration guy I know had a binder sorted spell.. performatted and templated in plastic binder sheets with a pen to wipe off hp from as he sent them flooding into killing everything he surveyed. Even had various forms of his eidolon planned out.
First encounter of EoTT? HE did his stuff faster than the fighter did..and he had like 6 Foo Lions running around eating goons.
That man is my hero. It makes me want to step up my game and upgrade from these stingy note cards.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I want to say that Rosc is an awesome summoner. He is so well organized that no one minds when he brings tons of bodies to the table. I admire how cannily he plays his casters.
Summoners don't have to be a problem. They just need to be played with organization and savvy.
Hmm
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I want to say that Rosc is an awesome summoner. He is so well organized that no one minds when he brings tons of bodies to the table. I admire how cannily he plays his casters.
Summoners don't have to be a problem. They just need to be played with organization and savvy.
Hmm
Should a brand new player be dissuaded from playing a summoner then?
I have a new group that I am introducing to PFS and the Pathfinder rule system simultaneously, and one of my players has a character concept that might be best met using an eidolon.
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Should a brand new player be dissuaded from playing a summoner then?I have a new group that I am introducing to PFS and the Pathfinder rule system simultaneously, and one of my players has a character concept that might be best met using an eidolon.
Summoner with an eidolon... maybe? Summoner with summon spanms, definitely
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I will probably hold his proverbial hand in building his eidolon, so that's not too much of a worry. It's the eidolon that he needs for his concept anyway.
It's the spontaneous summons that worry me more. XD
Any ideas on how to mitigate this?
Pick the best summons at each level and make a character sheet for it. Or a flash card with HP/AC attacks and damage.
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Yeah, seconding the advice here. Read up on a Summon Monster guide and pick out 1-3 reliable stand by critters for each level, make stat cards for them. Assuming the Summoner isn't rushing Augment Summons, you can get away with having the Celestial Eagle for offense and a Celestial Pony for flank partnering and meat walls.
Remind him of the relatio shit bewteen these two signature abilities, and that you often have to decide between one or the other as a core c9mbat strategy. Summon Eidolon complicates this dynamic, but he's got 3 levels worth of play to get familiar with the baseline features before that becomes a major factor.
Encouraging fire-and-forget buffs like Mage Armor helps keep spellcasting in the background so he can focus on familiarising himself with the rest of the mechanics.
I want to say that Rosc is an awesome summoner. He is so well organized that no one minds when he brings tons of bodies to the table. I admire how cannily he plays his casters.
D'aww, thanks! I was inspired to put in the extra work after one particularly hectic session, where my Summoner tozsed out a small squad of Earth Elementals. Having to look at their base stats, calculate the +4 strength on their attacks and strength mod x1.5 on their damage plus Power Attack brought that fight to a crawl. Being That Guy is never fun.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I've never seen you be that guy. In fact, I study your casters for lessons to make mine more awesome. Zahra is totally going to learn to scry and fry after the shenanigans that you pulled off the last time I GM'ed for you!
I know how tempting summoners are to new players... And it's not just the summoner class. It's also occultist arcanists, priests, druids, and any other caster who can summon stuff. It can slow gameplay to a crawl if you don't have your act together. Do your research ahead of time. You can also print off excellent summon monster / nature's ally cards from this excellent free site.
Summoned monsters, cannily used, can be game changers. They can flank with party members, making the rogue shine. They can scout! They can heal and cast spells to aid the party (at higher levels.) They don't have to be annoyances! But you have to do your homework!
Hmm
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Honestly, if you have Augment Summons and Superior Summons Ponies are viable up through Summon Monster III. 19 hit points a pop makes for a mighty thick Wall of Ponies.
Another fun thing about Summoners if the pure versatility of spells thag get added to your list. Bralani Azatas are literally good at everytbing you need when they're in your range of summon spells.
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That man is my hero. It makes me want to step up my game and upgrade from these stingy note cards.Best conjuration guy I know had a binder sorted spell.. performatted and templated in plastic binder sheets with a pen to wipe off hp from as he sent them flooding into killing everything he surveyed. Even had various forms of his eidolon planned out.
First encounter of EoTT? HE did his stuff faster than the fighter did..and he had like 6 Foo Lions running around eating goons.
Not PFS specific, but years ago I made a druid/sorcerer combo for a home game that specialized in summoning creatures. IIRC, it was Council of Thieves, and it was our first game after transitioning over from 3.5, so 3.5 feats/prestige classes were allowed as long as there wasn't something similar in pathfinder. I had augment summoning, and some other feats that worked with augment summoning as a chain (there's a feat from some splatbook that had augment summoning as a prereq and let it come in w/a buff spell you had prepared)...I had a binder full of each creature I could summon, already pre-augmented, and with what changes would be made by buff spells that i knew that would be likely to be used. Didn't go so far as to put them in sheets to mark HP (used note cards for that myself), but now i wish I would have.
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Keep in mind that lack of preparation isn't the only way to be "that guy" as a summoner. If your summons:
* Are defeating non-trivial encounters by themselves
* Are taking up flanking/melee slots needed by other players (providing flanking is great: taking flanking away is not)
* Getting in charge lanes by other players
you are still "that guy" and should reconsider your actions, no matter how well-prepared you are.
On the other hand, a well-played summoner can, at times, save a party from defeat when things are going poorly. A summoner that both understands proper summoning etiquette and that can step things up to prevent a TPK is a treasure.
I was thinking of a concept character: A Sacred Huntsman Inquistor/Druid/Wizard/Hunter/Witch/Wild Child Vigilante. A young Wayang who loves animals, particularly dinosaurs. I will also be taking Undersized Mounts to ride these animals. So level 6 I would have 3 Companions, 3 Familiars. A few questions:
1) I believe I have this many Animals, but just to be sure, does this sound right?
2) Do similar Familiar Abilities Stack (+2 Initiative and +4 for a total of +6 for an example)
2a) If so, could I have multiple of the same familiar and have those Stack as well?3) Is this overboard for the GM?
4) Is this Class Viable in Society Play?
And Finally 5) What do you think of the concept?
It's called hogging table time. It's bad form and thus it's one of the behaviors targeted under the "Don't Be A Jerk" rule.
And I'm pretty sure that the rules don't allow you more than one Companion and Familliar.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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4) Is this Class Viable in Society Play?
Pick one for combat, pick the other 5 for "flavor". If you have any flavor choices, they provide no mechanical advantage (just as if you didn't have them) when in combat.
So it's fine, because you'd be mechanically no different than someone with one combat AC or familiar.
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I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that it is not possible for a character to have more than one familiar.
The only such statement I am aware of is from Familiar Folio;
You have learned a ritual that allows you to gain a familiar.
Prerequisites: Iron Will.
Benefit: You gain a familiar, as the wizard arcane bond class feature. You do not gain the special ability the familiar normally grants its master, and the familiar does not gain the deliver touch spells, scry on familiar, share spells, speak with animals of its kind, or spell resistance special abilities. Otherwise, your total Hit Dice are used as your wizard level for determining the familiar’s abilities.
Special: If you have (or later gain) levels in a class that grants a familiar, whenever you select a familiar, you can either base your familiar’s abilities on your total Hit Dice per this feat (including the restrictions on its special abilities), or choose to apply only your levels in classes that grant a familiar (and thus gain all the special abilities that familiar would grant based on those class levels). You can never have more than one familiar.
That said, there are some situations where familiar levels clearly cannot be stacked. For example, a Wizard with a figment familiar that then takes levels in Witch... Witch familiars CANNOT be figments. Ergo, the two familiars are incompatible. Thus, I'd think that as per the animal companions FAQ you'd have two lower level familiars rather than one familiar combining the levels of both classes.
Thus, I suspect the 'no more than one familiar' statement above is specific to JUST that feat.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that it is not possible for a character to have more than one familiar.The only such statement I am aware of is from Familiar Folio;
You have learned a ritual that allows you to gain a familiar.
Prerequisites: Iron Will.
Benefit: You gain a familiar, as the wizard arcane bond class feature. You do not gain the special ability the familiar normally grants its master, and the familiar does not gain the deliver touch spells, scry on familiar, share spells, speak with animals of its kind, or spell resistance special abilities. Otherwise, your total Hit Dice are used as your wizard level for determining the familiar’s abilities.
Special: If you have (or later gain) levels in a class that grants a familiar, whenever you select a familiar, you can either base your familiar’s abilities on your total Hit Dice per this feat (including the restrictions on its special abilities), or choose to apply only your levels in classes that grant a familiar (and thus gain all the special abilities that familiar would grant based on those class levels). You can never have more than one familiar.
That said, there are some situations where familiar levels clearly cannot be stacked. For example, a Wizard with a figment familiar that then takes levels in Witch... Witch familiars CANNOT be figments. Ergo, the two familiars are incompatible. Thus, I'd think that as per the animal companions FAQ you'd have two lower level familiars rather than one familiar combining the levels of both classes.
Thus, I suspect the 'no more than one familiar' statement above is specific to JUST that feat.
No. Elsewhere it says that when you have multiple classes that grant familiars, your familiar level stacks.
Allowing multiple familiars would be heavily unbalanced since many familiar abilities are based on character level. If you pick up something that makes you familiar ineligable for it's template, you would lose the template.
Consider someone who took four different classes that gave them familiars and then took protector familiars. Effectively they would have triple their hit points, and could split up to 4 attacks a round to share damage among their HP batteries.
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No. Elsewhere it says that when you have multiple classes that grant familiars, your familiar level stacks.
Yes. Just as when you have multiple classes that grant animal companions the animal companion level stacks... except when it can't.
Allowing multiple familiars would be heavily unbalanced since many familiar abilities are based on character level.
That's a solid argument, but there ARE inescapable problems with combining familiar levels as well.
There are just too many unique / incompatible familiars mandated by different classes; Magical Child shape changing familiar, Duettist Bard performing familiar, Horticulturist plant familiar, Demonic Apostle fiendish/Quasit familiar, Leshy Warden Leshy familiar, Alchemist tumor familiar, Chosen One emissary familiar, Tattooed Sorcerer tattoo familiar, Spirit Binder soul bound familiar, Eyebiter eyeball familiar, Familiar Adept school familiar, Homunculist Homunculus familiar, et cetera.
How do you 'combine' a familiar which has to be a Leshy with a familiar that has to be a flying eyeball? Would a Magical Child / Chosen One / Familiar Adept have some kind of Uber Familiar combining the abilities of all those options into a single creature?
I agree that whenever possible familiar levels from different classes should stack towards a single familiar... but what should happen when that just ISN'T possible?
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I don't think there's a problem. At least with the Chosen One, many of the familiar's abilities are linked to the character's class levels, and it comes at the cost of some of the abilities that would otherwise accrue from those class levels. In other words, there are the baseline familiar abilities, and then there are some classes that have class abilities that make a familiar more powerful. Sure you can dip around to make an uber-familiar...but I expect that the cost to the character who owns the familiar will in most cases balance it out.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I don't think you can combine a Leshy with an eyeball. But a magical child, chosen one, duettist bard familiar should all stack... I also think that alchemist tumor could stack too. This could get BIZARRE but I don't see why those familiars could not stack.
Hmm
(Who now wants to make this character. It would be completely INEFFECTIVE, but boy, would it ever have a neat familiar.)
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I don't think there's a problem. At least with the Chosen One, many of the familiar's abilities are linked to the character's class levels, and it comes at the cost of some of the abilities that would otherwise accrue from those class levels. In other words, there are the baseline familiar abilities, and then there are some classes that have class abilities that make a familiar more powerful. Sure you can dip around to make an uber-familiar...but I expect that the cost to the character who owns the familiar will in most cases balance it out.
I looked into it a little more, and would like to make an addendum:
School familiars and bloodline familiars and patron familiars get added abilities, the archetypes that grant them those abilities are archetypes of the character classes rather archetypes of the familiar per se. That means that they all stack, but all level-dependant abilities are based on levels that the master has in those classes. So you can stack them, but if the abilities are level-dependant you won't get much benefit at all without substantial dipping. Furthermore, if you're a primary caster dipping into two other primary casting classes, you've delayed your spells and higher-level class abilities by a few levels. Your familiar also suffers because it uses the master's BAB, and dipping say two levels in slow-progression classes means two levels in which it's BAB remains stagnant. If you're using your familiar for anything that relies on BAB, this too is a real cost. If you're a Chosen One paladin, the hit to BAB hurts you directly too.
It strikes me more as a fun gimmicky concept that might amuse the others at the table, but I highly doubt this will lead to anything close to a super-powered character. The familiar might become quite powerful for a familiar, but it will still be a long way from overshadowing any actual character, and the cost to the master will make the overall result relatively tame.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Agreed. The familiar would be fun and neat but the character? Pfft. I'm having a hard time seeing a build where this could be at all effective.
Though come to think of it, a 2 level alchemist dip for oradins could give you a tumor familiar that is a HP battery. So you could do a chosen one / alchemist with tumor familiar and have that work with the Oradin concept. Unfortunately, life oracle doesn't provide a familiar of its own, so you'd either have to use a shaman (making you even more MAD) or use boon companion feat. You *could* add 4 levels of bard to get your familiar to perform, but the ability would come in so late and add so little I'm not sure why you'd bother other than bragging rights.
Gads, I just designed this monstrosity, didn't I?
Hmm
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How would this be a HP battery? A Chosen One paladin cannot pick the protector archetype for his familiar, because of the mandatory emissary archetype that Chosen One paladin needs to pick for his familiar. So he lacks a means of transfering damage taken with his familiar.
A regular alchemist could do this just by taking the protector archetype for his tumor familiar.
Actually, any single-classed caster with access to both the soulswitch and shield other spells will be able to do this far better. Soulswitch with an inevitable arbiter familiar, cast shield other on your familiar who is in your actual body, then switch back. Now half of all the damage you take is transfered to your familiar, who unless he takes chaotic damage will just keep regenerating without fear of death.
Once again, single-classed does it best.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There are just too many unique / incompatible familiars mandated by different classes; Magical Child shape changing familiar, Duettist Bard performing familiar, Horticulturist plant familiar, Demonic Apostle fiendish/Quasit familiar, Leshy Warden Leshy familiar, Alchemist tumor familiar, Chosen One emissary familiar, Tattooed Sorcerer tattoo familiar, Spirit Binder soul bound familiar, Eyebiter eyeball familiar, Familiar Adept school familiar, Homunculist Homunculus familiar, et cetera.
Really? you are really going to make me do this...
Magical Girl - In social ID, it is just a familiar. In vigilantee id it is an improved familiar, see improved familiar below.
Duetist - Doesn't change anything about the familiar, but now it can dance, stacks with anything.
Horticulturist - Turns the familiar into a plant. Still stacks with everything, but now it is a dancing plant
Leshy Warden - The familiar is a singing dancing leaf leshy, that is now a plant...
Alchemist - Singing, Dancing, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor
Chosen One - Singing, Dancing, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor and talks to god
Tattooed Sorcerer - Singing, Dancing, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor or a tattoo and talks to god
Spirit Binder - isn't PFS legal but if it was - Singing, Dancing, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor or a tattoo and talks to god and has your dead ones soul.
Demonic Apostle (up to level 7) - Singing, Dancing, Fiendish, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor or a tattoo and talks to god and has your dead ones soul. Past level 7, see improved familiar.
Homunculist - Singing, Dancing, Fiendish, Plant, Leaf Leshy that can turn into a tumor or a tattoo and talks to god and has your dead ones soul and you can give it evolutions.
Improved Familiar (also Magical Girl and Demonic Apostle)
Improved familiar just allows you to switch your familiar animal for a different type from the list. This works for everything on the above list (although a fiendish angelic familiar would get a little weird. But IIRC there is actually a good aligned outsider with the fiendish template in a scenario, so clearly it can happen. )
Of course, if you chose this (or in the case of Demonic Apostle, have it thrust on you when you hit level 7) your familiar is no longer a leshy, and you lose the plant domain.
Eyebiter is a problem, and probably needs an FAQ about what happens when it is combined with other familiar levels. This is pretty much the only one where I get the sense it is "not a familiar, but uses the general rules for a familiar" and you could have it not stack.
Familiar Adept is a problem, but only when combined with Chosen one. I would be interested to see a FAQ on this.
So I definitely shouldn't be a pack master Hunter in Society right?
Change that shouldn't to "can't".
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Springfield
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In the Additional Resources
Thanks again! Still trying to learn the game... There is a lot of information.