Hello All!
I'm curious - if someone already done what I'm thinking about right now - making nauseated condition a little bit less... powerful.
I mean this condition actually shutdowns a creature, forbids all actions except move and therefore spells and abilities that create this condition (stinking cloud, stink bomb, cacophonous call, etc) are really-really powerful and can solve entire encounters by just one failed save on not-so-high levels.
Instead of fixing spells individually I thought maybe to change this condition. Any ideas how to change it so:
1. It will still be bad condition to have
2. It should allow to participate in combat at least in some way
Thank you in advance!
If you think Nauseated is too strong just double the penalty for Sickened. That being said, there aren't a whole ton of things that result in being nauseated, all of them require a save, they're measured in rounds rather than minutes like some other effects, and most can be pretty easily negated by other effects (wind wall, gust of wind, silence)
It's supposed to suck.
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All of the effects that cause nauseated are comparable to the power level of similar abilities at their level. If you nerf the nauseated condition, all you do is encourage the use of those other abilities, some of which are more crippling.
For example, you can get access to deep slumber and slow at the same level as stinking cloud. You can get confusion, fear, and black tentacles at a level higher. Web and glitterdust a level lower. There's mass disables at every level and nauseated is one of the lesser of the effects. So you don't really accomplish anything by nerfing nauseated.
For example, you can get access to deep slumber and slow at the same level as stinking cloud. You can get confusion, fear, and black tentacles at a level higher. Web and glitterdust a level lower. There's mass disables at every level and nauseated is one of the lesser of the effects. So you don't really accomplish anything by nerfing nauseated.
I'm still not convinced.
Let's compare conditions you've mentioned.Slow vs nauseated.
In slow you can cast normally, you can make 1 attack per round, after all, you can act in combat.
In nauseated all you can do is retreat via 1 move action and watch as enemies kill you round after round.
Deep Slumber
Very niche spell, casting time 1 round, affect at level-appropriate level only 1-2 creatures, and can be negated by simple standard action that is available for every creature (doesn't require special abilities)
Confusion
Powerful effect but even this effect allows 25% chance per round to act normally plus you can effectively participate in combat if you are attacked.
Fear
Ok, you can be possibly removed from combat (forced to flee) but it's still more preferable than nauseated. In nauseated you are effectively also removed from combat but CAN'T effectively retreat.
Black Tentacles
CMB = CL + 5 is not that strong after all, this spell is overrated. Just check average CMD of monsters in Bestiaries.
Even then, grappled condition still allows you to act, you can cast non-somatic spells with concentration, you can after all activate magic items, etc.
If you are nauseated - that's it. You can't do anything at all.
Blinded
Not even remotely as bad as nauseated.
Basically you just have 50% concealment vs all enemies and have issues with AC, and that's all. But still you can act, you can cast spells, you can retreat, you can drink potions, with Blind Fight you can effectively fight in melee.
Spellcaster affected by blindness can possibly cast spell to remove this condition or mitigate it, if he is nauseated - he can't do anything.
I'm not convinced at all that nauseated is a lesser effect. I personally think that condition that basically removes all you options in combat except one (slow retreat) is very serious condition. Only slightly better than dazed.
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IMO, Nauseated is fine as written. It sucks when you get hit with it but most things that cause Nausea are poison effects, so if you don't want to be hit with it build around that.
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The recent ill-considered ban on swift actions made Nauseated a lot more powerful.
For example, you can get access to deep slumber and slow at the same level as stinking cloud. You can get confusion, fear, and black tentacles at a level higher. Web and glitterdust a level lower. There's mass disables at every level and nauseated is one of the lesser of the effects. So you don't really accomplish anything by nerfing nauseated.I'm still not convinced.
Let's compare conditions you've mentioned.Slow vs nauseated.
In slow you can cast normally, you can make 1 attack per round, after all, you can act in combat.
In nauseated all you can do is retreat via 1 move action and watch as enemies kill you round after round.Deep Slumber
Very niche spell, casting time 1 round, affect at level-appropriate level only 1-2 creatures, and can be negated by simple standard action that is available for every creature (doesn't require special abilities)Confusion
Powerful effect but even this effect allows 25% chance per round to act normally plus you can effectively participate in combat if you are attacked.Fear
Ok, you can be possibly removed from combat (forced to flee) but it's still more preferable than nauseated. In nauseated you are effectively also removed from combat but CAN'T effectively retreat.Black Tentacles
CMB = CL + 5 is not that strong after all, this spell is overrated. Just check average CMD of monsters in Bestiaries.
Even then, grappled condition still allows you to act, you can cast non-somatic spells with concentration, you can after all activate magic items, etc.
If you are nauseated - that's it. You can't do anything at all.Blinded
Not even remotely as bad as nauseated.
Basically you just have 50% concealment vs all enemies and have issues with AC, and that's all. But still you can act, you can cast spells, you can retreat, you can drink potions, with Blind Fight you can effectively fight in melee.
Spellcaster affected by blindness can possibly cast spell to remove this condition or mitigate it, if he is nauseated - he can't do...
I feel like you're mostly making excuses than arguments here. For some of them, you compare the conditions and not the effects while ignoring some of the most powerful aspects. For example, if you're blind, you have to use Perception to locate creatures, can only move at half speed, and can't use any ability that requires line of sight (like target spells). Black tentacles has a huge area, impedes movement, and can grapple foes every round and when they move through it. And confusion can make you attack your own allies and potentially kill them if they're also confused.
Stinking cloud is balanced against other effects at its level.
Are there any other effects that trouble you?
I still do not undestand how can you compare spell level 3 with spell level 4 and say that something is balanced.
Plus you completely miss my point. All other conditions still allow actions from combatant. Nauseated doesn't allow to participate in combat at all. No chance. 0%.
It's not stinking cloud that bothers me personally, its nauseated condition.
I would like to hear your arguments for example for cacophonous call.
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I'm pointing out that the effects on par with stinking cloud are 3rd level spells. The effects that are slightly more powerful are 4th level spells and the effects slightly weaker are 2nd level spells. Hence, stinking cloud -- the most commonly used ability that inflicts the nauseated condition -- is balanced compared to other effects. Sure, stinking cloud takes you out of the fight, but it also protects you. The other comparable spells not only cripple your action economy, but also put you at serious danger. Even if the action economy debuff isn't as strong as nauseated, they usually
As for cacophonous call, what's my analysis? It's a second level Save or Suck spell. Only targets one creature. Ear-piercing scream is a level lower, deals damage, and dazes (though for one round). Hideous laughter is way more crippling (disabling actions AND knocking you prone) and can be gained by the bard one level lower. However, hideous laughter allows a save every round. Blindness/deafness can be obtained at the same level as cacophonous. Though it doesn't cripple the action economy as hard, it has a permanent duration and more vertasility. Cacophonous call is slightly stronger than spells of a lower level, has trade-offs when compared with comparable spells at the same level, and isn't as strong as spells on a level higher. Plus, the spell only appears on the bard list and won't be obtained until 8th level. As a result, my analysis points that cacophonous call is fairly balanced.
Conditions serve the abilities, not the other way around. Nerfing nauseated just nerfs those otherwise balanced abilities just because you believe nauseated is too powerful in a vaccum. That's my main problem with your argument to nerf nauseated. You mainly look at the condition by itself.
With all due respect, but I do not agree with your arguments, based on following points:
1. You are wrong, Cacophonous Call is bard 2 spell, so it can be used on 4th level, not 8th level.
2. It strange that you compare this spell to Ear Piercing Scream as it's strange to see a comparison between spells that have a duration of 1 round only and 4+ rounds (average duration of combat in PF is 4-6 rounds, btw)
3. Hideous Laughter not only allows save every round, but it allows saves on creatures turn (not your turn) plus wrong type provides huge +4 bonus vs save, plus creatures with low Int are unaffected.
So how this translates to 'slightly better' - I do not understand.
We have a spell that doesn't allow save per round, doesn't allow additional save bonuses, doesn't have limitation (basically works on all animals) vs spell that only gives +4 attack in melee (prone), but -4 on ranged
4. Again, all effects that you claim to be stronger (blindness, confusion, grapple) do not disable actions, therefore there is a lot of room for character to simply remove this condition, either via spell, or via potion, or via feat / other ability. You can check how many different options are available to auto-dispel or auto-remove a lot of harmful conditions. Or you can still fight. With penalties, ok, but you can. While you are dazed/nauseated you can't do anything, so you will be forced to do nothing till you will die. It's just a matter of time when this will happen - in 2 rounds or 3 rounds, without active involvement in combat there is no chance to survive it. I dare you take 4 PCs of any level and then create an encounter for their APL. Then make a test. Assume that all characters suffer from blindness for let's say 5 rounds. Check how they fare. No make all of them nauseated for 5 rounds. Check the result.
5. You can check any Pathfinder guides on the internet. Stinking Cloud, Cacophonous Call and majority of abilities that cause nauseated condition are marked as must have.
Stinking Cloud is the best (or one of the best) control + disabling spells of 3rd level. It can alone solve encounter only by 1 casting. Alchemist Stink Bomb - same. And don't assume that this spell protect you, no way - if you decide to be there, you will be nauseated not for 1d4+1 rounds, but for 1 rnd / level. Your choice - you will be hammered with 50% concelment chance / by area spells, and you won't be able to do nothing.
Bottom line. Frankly speaking, I feel that I'm losing my time trying to argue with you on this topic. I'm sure that you have your own experience on PF, I have mine, I doubt that I will be able to convince you that you are wrong, and you won't convince me that my experience is not true.
I started this tread in attempt to understand if someone already made some houserules on this topic, you know, to use good ideas in my games.
Just revert the silly "Can't use Swift or Free actions" FAQ and have done. Otherwise, no change necessary.
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The Nauseated condition essentially mimics a severe concussion. Ask anyone whose had one of those. It's pretty spot on.
Like I said if you don't like it. Escalate Sickened from -2 to -4 or -6
Ok, then please provide your opinion on following changes:
Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. A nauseated creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A nauseated creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.
Overall this allows:
1. Activation of magic items (except Spell Completion)
2. Drinking a potion
3. Lower spell-resistance so that you friend cleric can actually cast something on you
4. Probably total defense action
Still nauseated remains really bad condition (after all you can't attack, can't concentrate, can't cast spells) but at least it allows you to do something or at least hope that with proper preparation you can remove this condition from yourself.
P.S. With this ruling feat Heroic Recovery at least allows to remove nauseated condition.
Ok, then please provide your opinion on following changes:
Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. A nauseated creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A nauseated creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions.
Overall this allows:
1. Activation of magic items (except Spell Completion)
2. Drinking a potion
3. Lower spell-resistance so that you friend cleric can actually cast something on you
4. Probably total defense actionStill nauseated remains really bad condition (after all you can't attack, can't concentrate, can't cast spells) but at least it allows you to do something or at least hope that with proper preparation you can remove this condition from yourself.
P.S. With this ruling feat Heroic Recovery at least allows to remove nauseated condition.
Looks good to me. Personally I think it should be kept a move action or lesser action and allows any action that removes the condition to be taken. This way all those special abilities/spells that allow it be removed can be used. I also agree that the Nauseated condition was made ridiculous with the recent FAQ ruling which voided pretty much ALL the class abilities/spells that were supposed to remove the condition. The FAQ seemed a bit off the cuff without consideration for all the abilities/spells that the ruling would effect.
Confusion
Powerful effect but even this effect allows 25% chance per round to act normally plus you can effectively participate in combat if you are attacked.Fear
Ok, you can be possibly removed from combat (forced to flee) but it's still more preferable than nauseated. In nauseated you are effectively also removed from combat but CAN'T effectively retreat.
These 2 I think are worse than nauseated. Particularly Confusion.
25% chance for each creature to act normally, 25% chance do nothing (worse than nauseated), 25% chance to do nothing and damage themselves (worse than nauseated), 25% chance to attack nearest creature (worst of them all.)
75% chance to do something worse than nauseated. And 25% is to attack the nearest creature, which is also probably confused, locking them into attacking each other until one dies for the duration of the confusion effect.
Confusion is a party killer, easily.
From a narrativist perspective, the nauseated condition means that you're doubled over and actively vomiting/dry heaving.
From that perspective, I think the penalties from the standard rules are just about right.
Mrakvampire, I can see you like standard actions. But if "nauseated" permits them, you're turning it into "staggered." Are you going to take aim on cowering, dazed, paralyzed, petrified, & stunned, next?
I don't think it's broken. But if you really want to "fix" it, try allowing 2 move actions. At least that lets you get out of the cloud.
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Perhaps, similar to Confusion, create a Nausea table, like:
25% - Queasy - limited to one Standard or Move action only
50% - Long Heave - Do nothing but barf profusely
75% - Big Heave - Buckle over in sickness, falling prone and dropping held items, limited to a Move action only
100% - Projectile - Barf on nearest creature within reach, who must save (same DC) or be Nauseated for 1 round
Necromancy is a great way to deal with nausea, it seems.
Necromancy is a great way to deal with nausea, it seems.
Unfortunately I'm very sure that you can't conduct a ritual of lichdom while nauseated. :)
Revised Action Economy
For a rough translation, Staggered would deny the creature 1 act, and Nauseated would deny them 2 acts.
I completely removed the nauseated condition and any spells, potions or effects that caused it from games I ran. Mainly because I had more than one player make an alchemist and min-max his/her nausea bomb so that any fight against things that could be nauseated was smashed easily.
Its a broken condition, period. My suggestion Mrakvampire is just remove it from your game and move on.
Or take nausea bombs away from alchemists...
Or take nausea bombs away from alchemists...
Once I removed the condition suddenly my players no longer wanted to play Alchemists.
I'm a firm believer that no amount of playtesting (no matter how amazing. Thanks Paizo :D), cannot account for players who wish to break the system.
I'm also a firm believer in nerfing broken class features, feats and spells often and with prejudice.