It's defined in Intrigue.
States of Awareness pg 188
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For me, it is the first line of uncanny dodge that makes the difference.
a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so
Since they can react before thier senses do, then they are not truly unaware. The hard part is that is can be argued either way. Hopefully paizo will help clarify it.
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For me, it is the first line of uncanny dodge that makes the difference.
a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do soSince they can react before thier senses do, then they are not truly unaware. The hard part is that is can be argued either way. Hopefully paizo will help clarify it.
You mean like was explained in the post 5 hours and 10 minutes before yours?
You mean like was explained in the post 5 hours and 10 minutes before yours?For me, it is the first line of uncanny dodge that makes the difference.
a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do soSince they can react before thier senses do, then they are not truly unaware. The hard part is that is can be argued either way. Hopefully paizo will help clarify it.
I believe that Carnithia is stating that because of the clause about "before her senses would normally allow her to do so" that a rogue can never be "completely oblivious". So, no. Not like was explained in that post.
This is an old debate about Uncanny Dodge vs Sneak Attack that goes back to the beginning of d20.
tl;dr Uncanny Dodge makes targets immune to Sneak Attack from hidden and invisible attackers.
Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attacks
The uncanny dodge class ability is just about the nastiest sneak attack breaker in the game. Only immunity to critical hits offers more absolute protection against sneak attacks. So, uncanny dodge gets a section in the article all to itself.
The uncanny dodge ability allows a flat-footed creature to retain its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and it foils sneak attacks when in does so.
The uncanny dodge ability also allows a creature to use its Dexterity bonus (if any) against unseen foes, so an unseen foe must find some other way to make sneak attacks against creatures with this ability.
Uncanny dodge does not allow a creature to keep its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) when it physically cannot move. If you're grappled, held, helpless, incapacitated, pinned, or stunned, you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. If you're attacked while climbing, you also cannot use your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Uncanny dodge doesn't allow you to retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in any of these cases.
I have not seen any indication that Pathfinder changed any of that, so no, a vigilante does not get the extra damage in that situation.
Hidden strike is definitely a new thing it also applies against targets with concealment. So yes Pathfinder did change that.
Yeah, Unchained Rogue Sneak Attack can also be used against someone with concealment. It still doesn't work if they have total concealment, AKA Invisibility.
Uncanny Dodge does nothing to mitigate the "unaware" triggering condition, so a stalker vigilante would get his or her bonus d8s.
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This is a silly question. Use common sense like the developers have said (multiple times) and realize it's just a variation on sneak attack.
I think you're extracting a lot from the ability summary. Uncanny Dodge specifies exactly how "rogues can react to danger before their senses allow her to do so", they aren't considered flat-footed before they act in combat or even before they're aware combat has begun. Their dodge is uncanny because they're dodging attacks they were unaware of. However they certainly can be unaware, which is a game term defined under determining surprise not an arbitrary phrase. Uncanny Dodge mentions nothing about surprise or awareness, it only mentions flat-footedness and the ability to add Dex to AC. Because hidden strike only cares about awareness and not flat-footedness it can be used on rogues who don't know a threat exists even though they still get dex to AC.
It would be odd for Uncanny Dodge to mention "unawareness" specifically since it was only recently defined.
Hidden strike isn't sneak attack. Hidden strike applies in all ways that sneak attack does dealing d4s of damage. It also applies in two ways that sneak attack doesn't. It applies when the target considers the vigilante a friend and when the target is unaware of the striker. In these cases it does d8s of damage. In addition to all this and to solidify that Hidden strike is definitely a new thing it also applies against targets with concealment. So yes Pathfinder did change that.
A rogue attacking an unaware target (I.e. a failed perception check) would still get sneak attack. They could also get sneak attack if they attack a supposed "ally," though it would probably require a bluff check.
Both of these work for the same reason: they effectively make the target flat-footed.
No. Hidden Strike works because you're unaware. It doesn't care about flat flooted at all. It works because you don't know there's an enemy about to attack you.
Yes, uncanny dodge prevents you from being flat footed. No, that doesn't stop hidden strike because hidden strike doesn't mention flat footed anywhere in the description of its d8 ability.
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Hidden strike is different from sneak attack. If they wanted to give the vigilante sneak attack, they would have given him sneak attack. They gave him this instead. Uncanny dodge protects you from being flat-footed, but doesn't let you be aware of things you wouldn't otherwise be aware of. Hidden strike triggers on being unaware.
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Even if we take the writing of the Core Rulebook as proper here, the proposed reading presents a logical fallacy.
Basically, what we have, if we dissect the given premise of "Vigilantes attacking someone with Uncanny Dodge don't get Hidden Strike damage", is:
-Hidden Strike deals Xd8 damage against targets who are unaware of the Vigilante.
-Targets who are unaware of the Vigilante are flat-footed against the Vigilante's attack.
-Therefore, Hidden Strike deals Xd8 damage against targets who are flat-footed against the Vigilante's attack.
Or, to shorten it, "if A causes B, then A and B are the same thing". This is tantamount to saying fire and smoke are the exact same.
Being unaware is a status all on its own. Yes, most people who are unaware of your attack are also flatfooted against it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those people who aren't flatfooted against your attack are also aware of it. Likewise, it does not mean that all people who are flatfooted against your attacks are unaware of them.
The ability specifically says that you get the bonus damage "against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance". Yes, the first two scenarios cause your opponent to be flatfooted. But they could have rolled the bonus damage into that as part of the third scenario, and mention foes made flat-footed by being unaware of the Vigilante's presence or due to considering him an ally. They didn't.
Could they have intended it the other way? Possibly. Maybe it was easier for them to type it the way they did. But, it's also possible, and in my opinion more likely, that the intention was as part of getting the extra damage dice due to ambushing your opponent in some manner. Which you are still, absolutely, doing, even if they're able to dodge your attack.
They still get their DEX and Dodge to AC... but if that doesn't get them away from your blade, it's not going to be a good day for them.
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Nice! Glad to see some clarity finally written.
As a brief summary for those reading along, the 4 states are:Unaware: completely oblivious
Aware of Presence: knows something is around, but no idea where and/or what
Aware of Location: square pinpointed with an imprecise sense such as hearing
Observing: direct observation with a precise sense such as vision
How does the forewarned ability of diviners figure into that new awareness system?
Forewarned (Su)
You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
Whether or not it's RAI that uncanny dodge is supposed to protect against hidden strike I think unawareness is actually written to avoid people thinking Uncanny Dodge protects against it.
I don't get that impression at all. If it did it would say something like "Uncanny Dodge does not protect it against this" and it does not say that.
Unawareness doesn't even cause the flat-footed condition, not having acted yet does. If Uncanny Dodgers are immune to the unaware condition it means they're immune to being surprised.
I see what you are saying, but they are not the same thing. Being caught unaware is losing your dexterity bonus to AC and not acting yet in a surprise round is flat-footed. Those two things are synonymous in all ways except the conditions that caused them. Uncanny Dodge protects against both.
Really, what is the difference between hiding in the shadows and then attacking, or having a (2nd level) Invisibility spell on you and then attacking? Both are the same in that the target did not see you until you attacked. Uncanny Dodge protects against both of those situations because they are essentially the same thing.
To me, the only logical conclusion is that a vigilante does not get extra damage dice against a character with Uncanny Dodge.
No. The entire point of uncanny dodge is to avoid that sort of thing.
On top of that
Startling Appearance (Ex): At 5th level, a vigilante learns
o use the element of surprise to his advantage, startling
oes that are unaware of his presence. Whenever a vigilante
with this ability attempts an attack against a foe that is
ompletely unaware of the vigilante’s presence (usually due
o Stealth or invisibility), the foe is treated as f lat-footed
or the rest of the vigilante’s turn (uncanny dodge or a
imilar ability prevents this effect unless the vigilante is
t least 4 levels higher than the foe with uncanny dodge).
The foe also takes a –4 penalty on attacks made against the
vigilante until the start of the vigilante’s next turn.
Startling appearance is hidden strike on steroids.. and even that doesn't get through uncanny dodge.
Startling appearance is hidden strike on steroids
??
Hidden Strike gives you bonus damage on your attacks if you meet certain conditions. Startling Appearance lets you make people flat footed and take a penalty on attack rolls.They're not even slightly the same ability.
and even that doesn't get through uncanny dodge.
Well.. Startling Appearance is an ability that says it makes someone flat footed.
And it doesn't work against someone who has an ability that says they're immune to being flat footed. That seems both pretty obvious and doesn't have much to do with how hidden strike may or may not work.
Startling appearance is hidden strike on steroids??
Hidden Strike gives you bonus damage on your attacks if you meet certain conditions. Startling Appearance lets you make people flat footed and take a penalty on attack rolls.They're not even slightly the same ability.
Ones a very large cherry on top for the other.
Normally you pop out of the darkness and gank someone. you try to gank them again , they're aware of you, no sneak attack damage unless its the surprise round.
With this, you can let your big noisy fighter tromp his way into the middle of the room, pop out of the shadows, and full attack gank someone with all those lovely D8 sneak attacks. Otherwise you just get the one.
and even that doesn't get through uncanny dodge.Well.. Startling Appearance is an ability that says it makes someone flat footed.
Uncanny dodge: She cannot be caught flat-footed,
The thing is
1) Sudden strike is basically sneak attack, uncanny dodge prevents that.
2) an abilty that augments sudden strike,spells out that uncanny dodge stops them baring a big level difference.
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No. The entire point of uncanny dodge is to avoid that sort of thing.Can we try to forget for a second that Uncanny Dodge has historically been used to prevent sneak attacks? Hidden Strike isn't sneak attack.
Its sneak attack with d8's if you're surprising someone and d4's if you're flanking. If there's something more complicated than that in the tea leaves they need to point it out.
A rogue most certainly can sneak attack someone that is unaware of their presence. That denies them their dex , the sneak attack goes off.
Same thing with someone considering them an ally. Surprise round, gank, and if you win initiative,gank.
Those are the same things that let a rogue sneak, it just matters which one is which for the vigilante.
Uncanny Dodge means that the character who possesses it does not loses their dexterity bonus against the attacker.
If Hidden Strike does not rely on this to work, then it is golden.
Uncanny Dodge however does mean that the target's dex modifier still counts towards AC caluclations.
Startling Appearance can extend that, and with Shatter Defenses you can use it on anyone who is shaken.
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Thanks guys. Once a fight gimmicks bypassing Uncanny Dodge is not a huge concern IMO. If it goes down to 1d4 after the initial 'boo!', I think it's cool by me... however the text for Hidden Strike does seem to indicate the full d8 version works on unaware combatants *and* those that are flat-footed by startling appearance:
"A stalker gains an ability called hidden strike, which allows him to deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance. "
Looks like extending startling appearance as long as possible is the name of the game... in that case I'm kinda/sorta against bypassing Uncanny Dodge unless the Vigilante is 4 levels higher etc.
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Uncanny Dodge prevents you from being caught flat footed. So an ability that makes you flat footed...doesn't bypass uncanny dodge.
Hidden Strike via Startling Appearance is beaten by Uncanny Dodge because it requires you to be flat footed. Startling Appearance even outright says in its description that it's defeated by uncanny dodge.
Also even if you could-
Looks like extending startling appearance as long as possible is the name of the game
Startling appearance only lasts until the end of your turn. You can't extend it anyways. All startling appearance does is let you full attack with your d8s once. I don't think there's any way to extend it beyond that.
I feel the vigilante is quite good and serviceable. The avenger is kinda straight forward as to how to make it work, but the stalker has lots of cool tricks to really help it be a force to reckon with.
