Can Stirges be a threat to creatures with DR?

[Matt2VK]

Had a Druid summon up a bunch of Stirge's against a creature with DR/10 good. This was in PFS so have to use the RAW of the rules.

Since the creature had a lousy touch AC, how much threat were these Stirge's to the creature?

By RAW, all the Stirge's needed to do is hit the touch AC of the creature then they'd do 1 point of CON damage. Having multiple Stirge's made this a rule threat.

Could not find any rule, ruling one way or another on this so I ended up letting it slide as a creative spell use (plus it painted a funny scene of this big tough monster being brought down by a bunch of giant mosquitos).

What should have been the actual ruling of this?

[Avoron]

You ran it correctly. Stirges can be devastating at high levels against creatures that don't have a good defense against them. Speaking of which, what creature did they kill?

[Anguish]

Avoron got it right.

The following is an attempt to be helpful, not critical.

Dogs, cats, baboons, stores, telephones, stirges.

Dog's breath, cat's paw, baboon's butt, store's sale, telephone's screen, stirge's bite attack.

[Matt2VK]

Thought that was the case. Just seemed wrong that a bunch of Stirge's could bring down a CR11 Devil. Not going to say more about the type of creature but it should have been a very nasty fight.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Stirges can only deal 4 points of Constitution damage at a time. This means once 4 rounds are done, the Stirge is effectively useless.

Even so, if we have Augment and Superior Summons (1D3+1 for a 2nd level spell, average 3), the Stirge will have 7 hit points, an AC of 12, and requires moving into the square to attach to the target, which provokes unless they are summoned into the square of the creature.

So per casting of a 2nd level spell slot, that's 12 Constitution damage over the course of 4 rounds, and as a 3rd level spell slot, that can be as high as 20.

I mean, the Stirges would have definitely helped make the encounter, since that's 6 points of damage per hit dice the creature possesses, but as far as outright killing it that way? Not realistic.

Especially when the Demon should be smart enough to unleash a full attack and kill 2-3 of them with ease. The creatures only have AC 12 when they're attached, and any hit will kill them since it's only 7 HP.

[Avoron]

Huh. Most devils of that CR will have several layers of defense against that sort of tactic.

Take a CR 11 barbed devil, for instance. If stirges wants to attack it they will have to enter its square, which provokes an attack of opportunity. Barbed devils get 6/round with Combat Reflexes, and if any make contact with a stirge it dies. Any stirges that enter its square and attack it with their touch attack will be killed immediately by its barbed defense before they can deal any damage. If they somehow avoid this, the devil can casually slaughter them all with order's wrath and unholy blight, or just pop away with greater teleport, or just stand there and slaughter them all. With 22 Con and only room for 4 draining stirges at once, there isn't exactly a tight schedule.

The point being that there's a good chance the devil had some potential tactics or abilities that could have helped to protect it - but it's hard to tell without knowing what it is, and stirges can be very nasty if you're not ready for them. If stirges alone were enough to kill it, then I guess it just had an unlucky combination of abilities that didn't give it an easy way out. In any rate, it sounds like a fun encounter, but your player's shouldn't expect that to work against a lot of the enemies they meet.

[Scrapper]

Stirges use to inflict min of 1hp as part of Con drain, but with the lack of dmg now going straight to just Con, it does pose a problem with DR "Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact. " Technicly it is an injury based attack, but with out causing any hit point damage, the DR seems to be negated as a defense. Kinda makes the celestial summons pointless if a neutral druid can squash Evil, or Good for that matter! So the next knock down brawl between a Paladin and Anti-Paladin that rolls through a druid grove will likely end badly for both...

[Matt2VK]

For thinking it would be easy to kill these Stirges -

Summoned into the same square (or even adjacent square as 5' step does not trigger AoO).

Having 1D3+1 Stirges draining your CON. When your turn comes around you have a choice -
Attack the Sturges or attack the party members.

Next round you have another 1D3+1 Sturges attached to you. As the Druid is in the process of summoning up more. (Party was set up tactical to stop the Devil from being able to get to Druid to interrupt the casting).

Creature had no defense against this tactic but for DR/Good

[TriOmegaZero]

You can't summon creatures into other creatures squares.

You can 5ft step into the creatures square, but entering the creatures square still provokes, even on a 5ft step.

Edit: Relevant FAQ

[A Mite Excessive]

Anguish wrote:

Avoron got it right.

The following is an attempt to be helpful, not critical.

Dogs, cats, baboons, stores, telephones, stirges.

Dog's breath, cat's paw, baboon's butt, store's sale, telephone's screen, stirge's bite attack.

...the hell?

[Snowblind]

A Mite Excessive wrote:

Anguish wrote:

Avoron got it right.

The following is an attempt to be helpful, not critical.

Dogs, cats, baboons, stores, telephones, stirges.

Dog's breath, cat's paw, baboon's butt, store's sale, telephone's screen, stirge's bite attack.

...the hell?

Anguish is just being a Grammer National Socialist. Don't pay any attention.

[graystone]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

You can't summon creatures into other creatures squares.

You can 5ft step into the creatures square, but entering the creatures square still provokes, even on a 5ft step.

Edit: Relevant FAQ

CRB [magic section]: "Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate." And "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

Where is it stated that the "place you designate" can't be in a square with another creature? Are you basing it off of "open location"? I take that as meaning a space that the summons can fit in as opposed to completely clear of anything. If you go down the "completely clear of anything" route, then most places that aren't "floating in an empty space" don't count as random plants, rocks, furniture, ect would count as closing off the space as much as a creature would.

[TriOmegaZero]

Take it however you like, I take it as 'a creatures space is not an open location'.

[graystone]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Take it however you like, I take it as 'a creatures space is not an open location'.

Ok, then. I didn't see anything in the linked FAQ so I was wondering if there was a ruling I was unaware of.

If it's just the 'open location' thing, I'll agree to disagree on that.

[toportime]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Take it however you like, I take it as 'a creatures space is not an open location'.

While I sorta agree with you there, how do you explain making Acrobatics checks to Tumble THROUGH an occupied square if there is not enough "open space" for 2 medium creatures?

Better yet, if a Medium Creature fully occupied (hahaha NO) a 5 ft. square, why can you move THROUGH an ALLY with movement as long as you do not stop there?

If you are confused about this, draw out an actual 5' square on the floor and stand in it.

[TriOmegaZero]

Why do I need to explain those things? I did not claim the space is fully occupied, only that it was not an 'open location' for the purposes of summoning spells. If you have a definition of open location in the rules, I will gladly revise my ruling to account for it.