You can command the skeletons... directly... constantly. Or things go bad. They are like low grade robots- no vending machines or other crude appliances. you tell them to dig a hole, they dig until they hit the middle of the earth or get eaten by some underbeast. They don't really consider the circumstance that much- they just follow orders. I would rule that it uses your sailing check, and they just add an extra set of hands for you. A circumstance bonus at best.
Skeleton crew works even if you are not there though. Even if you are asleep. They have their own sailing checks. So if you leave regular skeletons on autopilot and tell them to sail east, they will do it even if they crash into the rocks in the middle of the night. Skeleton crew realizes it should probably avoid crashing the ship.
Past that, it is more on your GM for buffing up the control of the spell. Skeletons like that are mindless- no int scores. If he lets them do whatever perfectly anyway, then it is his fault for buffing up the lower level spell and making the higher level spell obsolete. Sometimes you have to consider why they would even make a spell like skeleton crew- because other spells don't cover the same niche. Negation can be useful for areas that are unclear- if the spell/feat says you can perform an action now that you got that resource, it is implied that you couldn't before getting the resource.
Anyway, the other advantages of skeleton crew are as follows:
-They can get decent profession sailor checks that scale with level. Even if you work with intelligent undead, you won't really find that (although I am sure there are some undead pirates you can make out there with their own checks). So it is better than an untrained profession check most of the time.
-they don't count towards your normal undead limit. Rather attractive, since you can have the crew and still have a bajillion undead soldiers waiting in the back.
-no material costs, like with regular undead options. These are an ongoing spell effect, not long term equipment.
-it is surprisingly not an evil spell. I suppose that, since they get checks based off of your level adn scores, they are more akin to robots with a sailing program uploaded than proper undead.
Very useful in a sailing campaign like skull and shackles where you encounter enemy ships with frequency. It means you can kill all the enemies, then tell them to get back on their boat and follow you to port. Nice logistical support spell for when you want to take ALL the loot, but don't want to bog down your own crew with bothering to take care of it. It is something you toss out, and probably forget about for a week or two.
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-it is surprisingly not an evil spell.
Not evil, but the method of corpse acquisition for the spell can certainly be an evil act (or at least unlawful).
Assuming you are a Good or lawful PC (neutral too, probably), I'd be sure to give the skeletons proper burials once you are no longer needing their service. They are still corpses, even if you are putting them to work, the proper rites should still be undergone when they are ultimately laid to rest.
-it is surprisingly not an evil spell.Not evil, but the method of corpse acquisition for the spell can certainly be an evil act (or at least unlawful).
Assuming you are a Good or lawful PC (neutral too, probably), I'd be sure to give the skeletons proper burials once you are no longer needing their service. They are still corpses, even if you are putting them to work, the proper rites should still be undergone when they are ultimately laid to rest.
Do burials at sea count as a task related to running a ship?
There's an actual spell called Skeleton Crew from Pirates of the Inner Sea that gives you a bunch of skeletons with ranks in sailor that can each do the task of one crew member.
Otherwise what lemeres said.
I think that's what's being referred to here. I think that the omission of the [evil] descriptor for an undead-creating spell was just that -- an accidental omission. Creating undead is always an evil act (at least in standard PFRPG).
I seem to recall seeing somebody from Paizo mention in another thread that the Skeleton Crew spell "should" have the Evil tag. However, the OP said, "The skeletons were raised using the Teifling's trait that can be rolled which allows the Teifling to create skeletons as if using the Animate Dead spell.", so I'm not sure if that's really what's being asked about here.
Well, the first entry on the Tiefling Variant Ability table is the ability to animate a 1-HD skeleton once per day.
Right, I think the OP is using that rather than Skeleton Crew.
Anyhow, what sort of boat is being sailed here, and what are its crew requirements?
I think that's what's being referred to here. I think that the omission of the [evil] descriptor for an undead-creating spell was just that -- an accidental omission. Creating undead is always an evil act (at least in standard PFRPG).
The spell does seem bizarre, especially when compared to other traditional undead creation spells.
It has a definite time limit. It doesn't use common materials necessary for creating undead. The undead can't attack, or perform actions outside of sailing at all. They gain ranks in profession (sailor), even if they had lived their whole lives in the desert.
The question comes up whether these are proper undead, or necromancy based robots.Not that it won't still have the paladin giving you nasty looks, of course. I agree that it is unlikely to be seen as moral to use this spell. But, given the at lest ambiguous morality of S&S where this spell comes up... I think it wouldn't tip you over to evil at least.
So I've been using a set of 4 skeletons to sail my little boat across the seas. The skeletons were raised using the Teifling's trait that can be rolled which allows the Teifling to create skeletons as if using the Animate Dead spell. I have read that I can control no more than 4HD skeletons at any given time. My issue is what I can do with these skeletons, the fine print says, "The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place." however the fine text for a lesser leveled spell of similar properties--Animate Skeleton--states, "The skeleton can follow the caster and obey the caster’s commands or can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature) entering the place." and my DM is taking the fine print to heart. What I don't understand is why a lower tier spell provides better control over undead than a higher tier spell, and why I cannot just command the undead to do mundane tasks. Obviously I will go with what the DM tells me, thought I'd like some insight into this or at least some explanation as to why I can't do this.
There is a spell called Skeleton Crew, which some posters have assumed you meant based on the thread title. This is NOT what you are talking about.
You are talking about the racial trait Tiefling Variant Abilities with the text "You can animate a 1 HD skeleton, as per animate dead, once per day as a spell-like ability."
You can make 1HD skeletons 1/day, and control up to 4HD * character level. You could conceivably make burning or bloody skeletons of 1/2 HD creatures. Perhaps even some other variants. You cannot make zombies, or any other undead with this SLA.
Your control is per Animate Dead. These skeletons do not have an Int value, so they have NO ranks in any profession or other skills.
As to the lesser spell having better control, think of it this way: the greater spell is way more flexible, and pays for it with spell level and control.
/cevah
There is a spell called Skeleton Crew, which some posters have assumed you meant based on the thread title. This is NOT what you are talking about.
He was referring to both.
He is comparing the variant ability, based off of animate, and under his GM's house rules, he finds that it seemed to do the same job as skeleton crew without the restrictions or limit against combat. As in, 'why use the Skeleton Crew spell when I can just jury rig my own crew of skeletons with a lower level spell'.
There is a spell called Skeleton Crew, which some posters have assumed you meant based on the thread title. This is NOT what you are talking about.He was referring to both.
No, he was referring to a lesser spell than Animate Dead. He named it Animate Skeleton. I find no reference to a spell by that name in the SRD or AoN.
He is comparing the variant ability, based off of animate, and under his GM's house rules, he finds that it seemed to do the same job as skeleton crew without the restrictions or limit against combat. As in, 'why use the Skeleton Crew spell when I can just jury rig my own crew of skeletons with a lower level spell'.
Hes reference to skeleton crew appears to be meaning skeletons as crew, not the spell of that name. The spell Skeleton Crew does not allow the skeletons to attack. This "Animate Skeleton" apparently does.
There is no GM house rule. He is lamenting the GM's strict reading of the animate dead rule because it does not let him do something the lesser spell does.
/cevah
Lotuschild, be careful with comparing 3rd party spells, like 'animate skeleton', with primary materials. 3rd party materials change the rules.
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Anyway, I don't think the spell is inherently evil within the confines of the book it was written for. Having a ship staffed by subpar skeleton crew members doesn't seem evil within the confines of High Seas adventuring.
I also think, as written, the skeletons wouldn't be able to attack or defend, they'd just man the ship in a maintenance capacity. Repairing sails, moping decks, and so forth. I don't think it's within the spell to have them manning the guns or defending the ship (or raiding other ships).
I don't think the spell is intended for use beyond High Seas adventures. The GM could reasonably ban or limit it should the players attempt to use it in other settings (like if they lack a ship or a body of water large enough for a ship).
I don't think it's within the spell to have them manning the guns or defending the ship (or raiding other ships).
I think they might be able to load a gun, even though they could not take any offensive actions with it.
So "someone else's ranged attack roll" basically.
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I don't think it's within the spell to have them manning the guns or defending the ship (or raiding other ships).I think they might be able to load a gun, even though they could not take any offensive actions with it.
So "someone else's ranged attack roll" basically.
GM discretion, though if I were GM, I'd not allow it. They could clean, wax, polish, or otherwise maintain the gun. They could even move it into firing position within the ship (as in, moving it from a stored position to a position where a gun crew could fire it at a target outside the ship). And they could certainly locate related equipment within the ship and bring it to the gun crew (like cannon balls and powder).
They could not qualify as gun crew themselves (which includes loading), as that is beyond the spell's capacity.
If you want to magically use the guns, the Siege Mage is the Wizard archetype for that.
On a side note, regarding actually steering the ship, Phantom Driver would probably work. Don't think the skeletons would follow orders from the phantom, so you'd probably need the caster to give orders related to the sails being adjusted for weather, but the driver should be able to steer.
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Regarding the evilness, I think animate dead assumes you are raising dead for combat purposes (or other nefarious deeds).
Personally, I think it should be okay for a good cleric to animate dead for the purposes of moving corpses (like to a tomb, or to get dead PCs to a better cleric that can properly raise them). If the purpose is closure for the deceased or with other kindness in mind, doesn't seem like the spell should be evil. I understand the rules don't support this mentality.
On a side note, Speak with Dead strikes me as a pretty selfish spell, and debate-ably cruel depending on where the dead creature's soul was residing before you cast the spell and forced back into the land of living just to answer questions. Could certainly be a form of torture if you did it repetitively to a single corpse (once per week).
On Golarion, spells to make undead are categorically EVIL. The spell's purpose is to make minions that do as you command.
If a cleric create undead to move them to the temple for raising, the latter spell will always fail, since you cannot raise a creature that has been made undead. Getting a wizard to cast Floating Disk works much better [100#/level, 1hour/level].
Speak with Dead, however, does NOT speak with the spirit of the creature, but the body. No spirit interaction at all.
/cevah
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On Golarion, spells to make undead are categorically EVIL. The spell's purpose is to make minions that do as you command.
If a cleric create undead to move them to the temple for raising, the latter spell will always fail, since you cannot raise a creature that has been made undead. Getting a wizard to cast Floating Disk works much better [100#/level, 1hour/level].
Speak with Dead, however, does NOT speak with the spirit of the creature, but the body. No spirit interaction at all.
You are correct that the undead cannot be raised as per the raise dead spell, but they can be resurrected. Sorry, I use the terms interchangeably because they usually refer to the same thing (dead people becoming alive again). There is a difference in this case, as Raise Dead will not work on undead, while resurrection will.
Regarding speak with dead, the description says otherwise.
If the dead creature's alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If successful, the corpse can refuse to answer your questions or attempt to deceive you, using Bluff. The soul can only speak about what it knew in life. It cannot answer any questions that pertain to events that occurred after its death.
bold is mine. You are forcing the Soul to answer questions.
Yeah, but.... :-)
You grant the semblance of life to a corpse, allowing it to answer questions. You may ask one question per two caster levels. The corpse's knowledge is limited to what it knew during life, including the languages it spoke. Answers are brief, cryptic, or repetitive, especially if the creature would have opposed you in life.
First paragraph states that it is the corpse answering questions.
Nothing like a spell that describes what it does in an inconsistent manner. :-)
/cevah
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Yeah, but.... :-)
You grant the semblance of life to a corpse, allowing it to answer questions. You may ask one question per two caster levels. The corpse's knowledge is limited to what it knew during life, including the languages it spoke. Answers are brief, cryptic, or repetitive, especially if the creature would have opposed you in life.First paragraph states that it is the corpse answering questions.
That would be semblance of life. You are briefly making the soul of the deceased enter a corpse in the semblance of a living state purely to answer your selfish questions for a brief period.
It is necromancy, after all.