Alright, so one of the party members in my campaign used a Gate spell and called a Solar. In the description of Gate, if the HD of the creature exceeds their caster level, then the creature acts on it's own will. They are currently fighting a NE Oracle and CN Barbarian. How do I determine what the Solar actually does in this situation other than it going after the NE Oracle, if at all. Or should I determine it does not wish to be there so it goes back to its own plane?
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Well it can depend on the Outsider. Creatures tend to act on their own will but if they have a strong connection to a character they may be subservient. Also they may forward service for payment later. If they are fighting an evil caster at the level that they can cast gate a solar may help anyway, as Solars tend to attempt to destroy powerful evils. You may opt to control it as GM but it all depends on how smoothly you want a game to run.
All in all it would heavily depend on what exactly the player is fighting? Also what type of people are in the party? Are they dark antiheroes or champions of good? Are there Paladins or other good aligned casters? Are any of them evil? What deity is the Solar aligned with? that may come into it.
The thing is... if the creature isn't controlled, than all the Gate does is offer the creature the opportunity to cross over. It isn't compelled to do so or do anything if it does.
The thing is... if the creature isn't controlled, than all the Gate does is offer the creature the opportunity to cross over. It isn't compelled to do so or do anything if it does.
Actually... It is compelled to cross the Gate (except in the case of deities and "unique creatures"). And you can control it if their HD don't exceed your CL.
Alright, so one of the party members in my campaign used a Gate spell and called a Solar. In the description of Gate, if the HD of the creature exceeds their caster level, then the creature acts on it's own will. They are currently fighting a NE Oracle and CN Barbarian. How do I determine what the Solar actually does in this situation other than it going after the NE Oracle, if at all. Or should I determine it does not wish to be there so it goes back to its own plane?
Why are they fighting? What are they fighting for? Are they on some grand quest to save the day?
If so, the Solar probably wouldnt mind a whole lot in helping for a bit. A single combat is likely a blink of the eye in the aeons old Solar. Crushing a bit of evil and helping some would-be heroes seems like a decent use of it's time.
What level is the group? A high level caster probably has quite the reputation so the Solar may simply be like "Hmm, well this ought to be important then if the so called -Insert Demi-godlike hero here- is summoning me."
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To be honest, a Solar would probably be pretty ticked if he was summoned for something as trivial as a little skirmish with a mortal. They have to deal with the legions of evil trying to capture entire planes of existence, little errands like this are beneath them.
Good outsiders become dicks the higher their CR is.
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There really is no hard rule for this.
The Solar while a good creature may feel like if he helps out it could prompt this to happen more so he might just do nothing at least until you convince it to help. If you fail to convince it then it can stand by until the spell's duration wears off.
He could have actually been doing something more important when he was called, at least in his opinion.
What I would do is to call the creature in advance and try to convince it to help the next time you call it. The spell does say you can name a specific creature vs just calling out to a creature type. It shouldn't even require knowing the true name.
That way when you use Gate during the battle you will know it will cooperate. That assume you get it to help you the first time you call it.
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To be honest, a Solar would probably be pretty ticked if he was summoned for something as trivial as a little skirmish with a mortal. They have to deal with the legions of evil trying to capture entire planes of existence, little errands like this are beneath them.
Good outsiders become dicks the higher their CR is.
Well it all depends. This may not be a skirmish. For all we know these could be a BBEG. And if it is that probably means the the caster summoned it because he couldn't beat it or because he thought that if they were fighting something so powerful a solar may be very well willing to help.
All in all though we need more info from the OP to make offer any real advice on this. But if it's a trivial encounter than the Solar is gonna be pissed.
I remember summoning a solar when there was some CR 24 servant of Rovagug about to wreck the mortal plane, and even then the Solar was like "That is tragic, and I wish I could help, but I have more important matters. Unless you want the armies of the abyss running rampant through the planes."
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However we need a lot more context before really answering this question. "A bad guy" doesn't really cover what this 'Oracle' is trying to accomplish. World domination? How dare you summon a Solar. End all of reality? Oh god why wasn't the Solar told sooner. And for that matter, let me just bring my army with me...
One of the biggest problems with reality-ending BBEGs is that there are a ton of 20+ CR outsiders that will come to end them.
Ok, here are all the basics of it so far. Party of four was brought to this demi-plane by an unknown caster and claimed that the world was being overthrown. The classes of the party are gestalt and all at character level 20. The only thing is that they don't know fully what has happened and what was going on. Ultimately, their presence and all the people that the unknown caster brought has been ruining and slowly bringing the world into turmoil.
The beings they are fighting are two leaders of the world. The leaders saw that the party was a problem, tried to talk them down, but it didn't work, so now they are fighting.
This is where my issue is, they have been working under the assumption that they are fighting the two leaders to appease the deity of the world (A custom deity for the game under TN and centered in the idea of accepting outcasted creatures from other worlds), and that they are trying to do what is right for the world and for the deity.
One of the party members even used a Commune spell to ask questions, one being something along the lines of "Is the deity for or against the leaders?" I told the caster that it was yes or no questions only, but answer anyway with "for". But they still don't like the leaders.
The main thing that they have all come up with is that the party members just want to go home, but that isn't the case for each of them. Two of them actually just want to defeat the leaders. One of those two being a veteran RPG player. This is where my huge issue is, so over all what do I do about the Solar? Does it determine that it doesn't need to be there or does it still fight because their is a powerful evil enemy?
We still don't know what the BBEGs plans are.
We still don't know what the BBEGs plans are.
He still isn't even a BBEG, my party (More so the veteran) and had a major discussion/argument about whether he would be TN or NE.
He isn't acting selfishly or working towards a higher evil and control. But he is taking lives of anyone caught in the crossfire of him trying to keep the world from being uninhabitable.
Let me rephrase the question: What does this NPC want to accomplish? What is his end goal, his ideal final situation if all his plans come to fruition.
Let me rephrase the question: What does this NPC want to accomplish? What is his end goal, his ideal final situation if all his plans come to fruition.
He wants to either send the party members to their true homes if he can talk them down, or kill them if they won't leave peacefully.
I mean on a universal scale, not just with the party. What are his plans for the plane?
I mean on a universal scale, not just with the party. What are his plans for the plane?
Over all, he wants to create and preserve a world with no fear.
When he was younger, he went to a magic school, he would volunteer to be the test subject for spell effects, mainly illusion. A spell went bad one day, and it plagued him with nightmares for the rest of his days.
Though his judgement is fogged by lack of sleep, he stays true to his goal of maintaining a happy world.
You're really making me push here.
Tell me, why is he evil? Tell me everything about this NPC. Everything.
in my opinion if the player casts a 9th level spell such as gate, they should get something out of it. that said the solar will probably not be pleased about having been yanked into this real by an impudent mortal. unless the solar's god(which means you) want him to help destroy the oracle, he would probably scold the PCs, cast a spell or two, and maybe summon something before plane shifting out of there.
I'm surprised nobody's quoted this yet:
The greatest warriors of goodness, solars do not typically treat directly with mortals. To summon a solar and bargain with it, a wizard must destroy an item of great evil in the solar's name, crush a powerful evil in the world, or offer an evil relic as part of the summoning.Yeah, the solar's not going to stick around to help someone who yanks them from their home plane with no tribute to kill some random oracle. If the PCs are lucky, the solar will see that the oracle is a powerful evil and cast a spell at it before popping back to Heaven. If they're unlucky, that spell will be storm of vengeance.
Oh please tell me where you found this, I seriously need it.
Well I suppose my question is going to be ignored than. Without more context it's hard to really say what the Solar will do.
Well I suppose my question is going to be ignored than. Without more context it's hard to really say what the Solar will do.
The Oracle relies on shadows and darkness for the majority of his powers. He killed the unknown caster in front of the party when the caster was helpless. He doesn't treat others with much respect and works against other people's downfalls to work an advantage. What else do you need to know?
What. Is. The Oracle's. Plans? What are his long-term planar-wide goals? World domination? Enslavement of all races? Destruction of reality?
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If anything, it sounds like a couple of the PCs are the ones acting evil in this regard. They're selfishly trying to depose the leaders of the entire plane just to satisfy their "We just don't like them" feeling, despite the gods telling them the leaders should remain in power and themselves destabilizing everything with their mere presence. And then they had the gall to call to one of the gods' top enforcers to help them? Even a leader of an entire world can ping as evil trying to do things for good. If anything, the Solar should look at them and ask why they're doing a thing that the gods specifically told them runs counter to their plans.
Let's just come up with a random thought experiment. You know some people are fated to cause the end of the world (or maybe even just cause years and years of war, strife, starvation, you name it) just from being around but they are unaware. If not unaware, they're trying to do their best to subvert this fate of theirs but is simply falling right into the prophesy anyway. You can either: 1. Be a "good guy" and pretty much let all your subjects die during the psuedo-apocalypse because you didn't make the hard decisions and let them live in relative bliss and hope for the best. 2. Be an evil hardass and tax everyone to the ground, order tortures, etc. in the name of ending these guys and building up a defense infrastructure big enough to not have everyone die if you fail to stop them. Who is the solar going to most likely side with? The leaders of everything that are doing the things that will keep people safe despite having to do some very unsavory things to do it, or the ones who are simply a natural force of catastrophe for everyone on that plane of existence?
If the players ping as good and genuinely are trying to do what's right then I don't see the solar necessarily outright killing the party, but you can bet that the solar isn't going to let them continue their childish, selfish little campaign to take down the leaders for the sake of a personal vendetta. The solar is going to be much more interested in making sure that the entire plane isn't thrown into chaos rather than helping someone with a vendetta against a leader that just so happens to ping as evil for things that so many other leaders do on a daily basis to gain/keep power. Depending on how "good" the players ping as I would say the solar probably throws them into some kind of divine prison until some divine official can decide their punishment. They probably wouldn't be outright killed (once again, depending on how "good" they ping) since the gods wouldn't approve too much of just outright killing people who can be molded to great use by the true divine forces of good. They would probably be sent to some other random plane that they aren't fated to cause the apocalypse on with a divine quest and told "We're watching you closely".
Or if you don't want to go full "you didn't think this through very well, did you?" you could just have the Solar simply go "Leave us out of your pathetic political power struggles. We told you that we're okay with these two so don't think someone as powerful as myself has the time to help you. Know you have offended the gods this day by calling us to help with your personal vendetta" or some other awesome monologue and then leaves.
What. Is. The Oracle's. Plans? What are his long-term planar-wide goals? World domination? Enslavement of all races? Destruction of reality?
He is already a leader of the world. He doesn't want to enslave anyone. And he doesn't want to destroy reality. He is trying to find and put all the people the unknown caster brought to the world back where they came from, whether they want to leave or not.
Is that it? He has nothing else planned? No schemes after the party is gone?
Why did this unknown caster bring the party over? Why is the party even there? What is the problem?
Is that it? He has nothing else planned? No schemes after the party is gone?
Why did this unknown caster bring the party over? Why is the party even there? What is the problem?
No grand scheme. The caster brought them because HE wanted to ruin the world and take over. He lied to the party, after so long of being told the Oracle is bad and that all their problems are because of him, they grew to hate him. So they basically don't care about going home, they just want to kill him.
...why is the Oracle even evil than? It sounds like he runs a functioning world and just wants to keep outsiders out. Maybe a little harsh, but not evil by any stretch.
...why is the Oracle even evil than? It sounds like he runs a functioning world and just wants to keep outsiders out. Maybe a little harsh, but not evil by any stretch.
OMFG I tried arguing that so many times to the party. I am putting him back to TN.
Well try not to make any drastic changes mid-campaign (or even mid-fight), your players might feel cheated. Also don't let your players define what your NPCs are to you. If they don't understand the motives of an NPC, you are in no way obligated to explain it to them.
So the party is being tricked by an evil wizard to take down a leader who is actually not a bad guy but who propaganda makes him look like a bad guy.
Yeah the Solar would be pissed and leave. How dare these trifling mortals call upon him. They would do better calling an evil outsider and offering it money.
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On another side note about not defining what NPCs are to you, my first homebrew campaign ever had two of my favorite characters ever in it. Nareth was a LN cleric of Zon-Kuthon who did many things that seemed evil (including marching with an undead army) but was doing it all for the safety of the realm, which confused the hell out of the party's paladin when he tried to smite Nareth. Also there is Heff, who is such an unpredictable pain in the ass that even I'm not sure what his alignment is. One time the party prepared every 'detect alignment' spell in order to figure it out, but little did they know Heff can shift his detected alignment at will so every single one went off and confused them even more :P