Hello everyone! I'm Rûrik, a "new" adventurer who has just arrived to Golarion lands (aka I'm just going to start to play Pathfinder).
For some years I've been playing D&D (mostly 3.X) and I was wanting to play Pathfinder because I've heard it's an improvement to 3.X. Finally we have ended all 3.X campaings, so we have decided that it's time to start with Pathfinder. For the moment we have just bought the most basic books but, thanks to online content, we can use all paizo stuff (not 3pp for now).
I've always wanted to play some kind of unarmed warrior but monks "esence" it's not something I like. As far as I've seen until now, there are 2 other options; make it a fighter (with one brawler level) or make it brawler... The character will be based on doing as much damage as he can (my 3 last caracters of 3.X have been oriented to utility, I want a change... I want to feel the flesh and blood of my enemy with my own hands)
- There are some other good options?
- From all options (but not monks), which one would you choose? (and why?)
On the other hand, we've been reading weapon descripctions and we decided to consider the Gauntlet (and only it) as an Unarmed Strike with two diferences:
-> It does lethal damage without needing the feat (but still generate AoO)
-> It can be enhaced like a weapon (having the posibility to not buy the "Amulet of Mighty Fists").
For that reason, everything which is supposed to be done with only the fists, can be done with the fists covered by a bit of metal (the only feat I've seen until now is "Counterpunch" but there are some more for sure; and probably not only feats).
Even with this agreement, because we've seen there was questions about this topic and to know it for future games:
- How it should be applied by raw?
Thank you all in advance for giving your time and sorry for my (almost sure) typos and misspelling.
Options:
Brawler - like the monk without any of the ki but all the unarmed damage and flurry, more combat options with martial flexibility.
Barbarian/Bloodrager - improved unarmed strike + rage is all you need.
Fighter - less skills but weapon training/advanced weapon training and combat style feats makes him dangerous (check out Weapon Master's Handbook stuff). Or the Fighter Brawler archetype.
Vigilante - does respectable unarmed damage, even better if finesse-based and picking up TWF feats.
Investigator - excellent skill user and studied combat makes him just as accurate and hard hitting.
Tip: Get brawling armor from Ultimate Equipment. Only works on light armor (Bracers of armor don't count because they're not armor. Regular mithral versions of medium armor don't either, but elven chain and celestial armor does because they're specifically light armor).
I've played the unarmed brawler, fighter, vigilante and find them to be as respectable with unarmed combat as a monk but with different options for different situations.
With your proposed gauntlet rule, frankly any class that focuses on weapon use would do just fine.
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If you're primarily focused on damage, I'd go with Barbarian, Bloodrager (maybe Bloody-Knuckle Rowdy), or Mutagenic Mauler Brawler.
The Brawler's Martial Flexibility is a great ability, but it's most useful for situational tactics like combat maneuvers, not raw damage.
Note: a nice trick with Bloodrager is casting a spell like Chill Touch which has multiple charges, and delivering those charges through an unarmed strike. It adds damage and a debuff to your attacks.
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Protoman's list is good, but I'll add another couple of options:
Constable Cavalier with the Order of the Hammer. You have very respectable non-lethal unarmed damage.
Swashbuckler - Use Snake Style, Boar Style, Hamatulatsu, or Weapon Versatility to make your unarmed strikes do piercing damage, and you can use all of your class features with unarmed strikes.
Ooo those are good. Yea I was just listing off the top of my head. So many options to do unarmed in Pathfinder compared to 3.5.
I've always wanted to play some kind of unarmed warrior but monks "esence" it's not something I like. As far as I've seen until now, there are 2 other options; make it a fighter (with one brawler level) or make it brawler... The character will be based on doing as much damage as he can
If you dislike the mysticism of a monk, consider the martial artist archetype. It trades most (all?) of it away, in favor of more damage and some unusual immunities. And it even lifts monk's alignment restriction.
A normal monk can be stopped at level 3, because it unlocks the feat Monastic Legacy. Nonmonk levels then count half for unarmed progression - and you can spend the remaining 17 levels on classes with their own damage boosts. Monk 3 & X 17 results in 1d10 damage, monk 4 & X 16 is even 2d6. Some archetypes don't trade away still mind, so you can use them too. But martial artist is not among them, sadly.
Inquisitors can have the Wooden Fist domain power, either via Plant domain or Strength domain with Fist subdomain. Adding half class level to unarmed damage (limited times per day though) is nice, and inquisitors have a few more offensive abilities. If you dislike the idea of playing a caster, there is another road: Variant Multiclassing with a cleric as 'secondary class'. You will sacrifice 5 feats for said domain power, channel energy and finally the higher domain power (Enlarge Person or Might of the Gods). It's a high price but allows you to spend all 20 levels on a class you like.
The Esoteric Magus is another option.
Or could also take a look at the Sacred Fist archetype for Warpriests.
Hello everyone ^^ and thank you su much for your answers!
I would never thought there exist that much options to make an "unarmed striker"; it's a very, very good surprise. The only "bad" it's that I will have to read a lot to see which one of them I like more and fits better with the character concept :^).
- Scott Wilhelm: I mean unarmed attacks, like a monk but not using one. Let the natural attacks be only for beasts for the moment.
I have to apologice with everyone who have contributed with "spellcaster" options because I completly forgot to say that I don't want to use spells this time...
The good part is that I will probably use them in later games, I awlays liked the concept of unarmed warriors. So, I will en up with more that one for sure.
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Giving a first view to them:
With a Brawler I would probably use "Snakebite striker" Archetype ("Mutagenic Mauler" don't fit with him). This two archetypes are the only ones which give away "martial fexibility" (and I don't want to have to read tons of feats to give a good use to it, at least not for now). In the other hand, at the monk description it sais that the monks don't have such think like and "off-hand attack" (for that they apply full Strenght damage and, probably full Power attack damage). But It it's not said on brawler's description; it don't specify anything about "off hand", it directly says that applies full strenght damage on unarmed strikes, not half.
- Having in mind that I want to do damage, it would be good enought to keep up with other martial characters?
- Taking into account the unarmed strike description from Brawler and Monk, does it means that "Power attack" damage it's not halved if you are a monk but, if you are a brawler it is halved with the off-hand?
If I go Fighter I'm not sure if I like the "Brawler" archetype. The concept fits very well with the character but, if I'm not wrong, I would lose the acces to de "Advanced weapon training" to get "Focused weapon" and make almost the same dice damage than a monk. I would probably use "light armor" even being able to go with others, I gess the AC difference it's not so much and the image I've generated was using a light one.
- Probably not, but to be 100% sure, if an archetype change the "weapon mastery" fighter class feature I can't take any "advanced weapon mastery" option right?
If I get the Barbarian, probably "Invulnerable rager" archetype, I'm not sure how to make it... "Improved unarmed strike", "two-weapon fighting" chain and "Power Attack" for sure but, I have no idea of what else should I get. Plus, I'm not sure If I want to be a savage character (maybe that years seeing him as a wild two-handed user it's what makes me not being completly confortable with the idea).
I'm not able to see the Vigilante (it's not here yet and it's not on the Core/APG), from what source is it?
The Cavalier (with "Constable" archetype) seems to be so close to a paladín but being less restricted by the code. I like it, but just not with the character I'm wanting to use this time. You can be sure that I will use it if do not appear some fantastic "unarmed paladin" with less code restriction when we talk about "making the baud guy talk with more than words".
I would never thought there are options to make non-lethal damage good. But this way I will probably be the only one who does non-lethal damage... Maybe in other game if I'm able to convince other playes to go non-lethal too (I hope there are more way of doing non-lethal damage with no penalty aside from sneak atack with bludgeoning weapons).
"Martial Artist" archetype from monk... Level 5 inmunity to fatigue and a Barbarian get it (only for rage) at level 17. It not seems so fair for the poor barbarian. Returning to the topic, even with no Ki it still follow eastern martial arts.
That ended up as a very big post, I've tried to make it short but I use to naturally try to explain everything.
Thank you all for your time and sorry for my (almost sure) typos and misspelling.
With a Brawler I would probably use "Snakebite striker" Archetype ("Mutagenic Mauler" don't fit with him). This two archetypes are the only ones which give away "martial fexibility" (and I don't want to have to read tons of feats to give a good use to it, at least not for now). In the other hand, at the monk description it sais that the monks don't have such think like and "off-hand attack" (for that they apply full Strenght damage and, probably full Power attack damage). But It it's not said on brawler's description; it don't specify anything about "off hand", it directly says that applies full strenght damage on unarmed strikes, not half.
Read Brawler's Flurry. "A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands". So when he uses flurry, he uses his full strength modifier for all his attacks. Power Attack would be at the full -1 to attack and +2 damage rate for one-handed weapons when using flurry even with unarmed attacks. Also, "She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability" in case you want to simply just use one weapon, for whatever reason.
Also, martial flexibility is fantastic when trying to even out the playing field when you're unarmed and the other guy is wielding fancy weapons. Dirty Fighting/Combat Expertise + Improved Disarm/Trip/Dirty Trick can be real lifesavers when damage isn't cutting it. In an area of darkness/deeper darkness or fighting invisible creatures? Get Blind-Fight. The Dedicated Adversary feat is awesome with martial flexibility.
If I go Fighter I'm not sure if I like the "Brawler" archetype. The concept fits very well with the character but, if I'm not wrong, I would lose the acces to de "Advanced weapon training" to get "Focused weapon" and make almost the same dice damage than a monk. I would probably use "light armor" even being able to go with others, I gess the AC difference it's not so much and the image I've generated was using a light one.
- Probably not, but to be 100% sure, if an archetype change the "weapon mastery" fighter class feature I can't take any "advanced weapon mastery" option right?
The brawler archetype has better options to be a "sticky" tank. But if you like regular fighter and advanced weapon training, by all means go for it. They made that book (recently too) in order to make regular fighter tempting again, which hasn't been the case since the Pathfinder beta.
And if an archetype loses weapon training, then no advanced weapon training. IF the archetype replaces weapon training with a more specific/limited version that references weapon training, then it'll count, just typically for that weapon/weapon group. Refer to this FAQ for more details.
If I get the Barbarian, probably "Invulnerable rager" archetype, I'm not sure how to make it... "Improved unarmed strike", "two-weapon fighting" chain and "Power Attack" for sure but, I have no idea of what else should I get. Plus, I'm not sure If I want to be a savage character (maybe that years seeing him as a wild two-handed user it's what makes me not being completly confortable with the idea).
Be careful when going TWF, the dexterity prerequisites can be harsh when going strength based. Though I guess Brawler + Greater Brawler gets passed that a bit. I don't play barbarians so don't really have any suggestions on useful stuff. The superstition line of rage powers are pretty strong. But if you're coming in from 3.5, DEFINITELY pick up Raging Vitality feat, will save your butt more than anything else.
Oh and Double Slice will help with any off-hand strength bonus issues.
I'm not able to see the Vigilante (it's not here yet and it's not on the Core/APG), from what source is it?
It's from Ultimate Intrigue that got released in hardcover and pdf form last week, it won't be be on d20pfsrd for at least couple more weeks as they don't things on the site so close to release date as a courtesy.
I would never thought there are options to make non-lethal damage good. But this way I will probably be the only one who does non-lethal damage... Maybe in other game if I'm able to convince other playes to go non-lethal too (I hope there are more way of doing non-lethal damage with no penalty aside from sneak atack with bludgeoning weapons).
You can still go nonlethal while others go lethal. Enemies go unconscious just as fast, and at least they're still alive for you to question afterwards as an option.
As another note, the Irori Combat Style for rangers or slayers can get Monastic Legacy feat at level 2, which would be pretty great to level dip with any build to get better base unarmed dice damage.
Check out the Style feats you might qualify for. Ascetic Style and Outslug style are pretty good choices for non-monks.
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While it has some spellcasting - there is a paladin archetype for unarmed combat as well.
As to Brawler - it should be noted that it actually does better eventually using a weapon. Your damage dice is a few levels behind - but you get cheaper enchantment and your neck slot isn't used up by the Amulet of Mighty Fists. You could just enchant a cestus or gauntlet as a Brawler though.
Are you planning to take advantage of the Snakebite Striker's advantages with Feinting?
Hello again :-) I've been reading all given options (even the spellcaster ones for future characters). All of them seem good, it's a pitty to not be able to use them all at once.
The thing that made me think if the Brawler applies 50% of Power attack on off-hand attacks is the lack of "there is no such think like off hand attack" which it's specified on Monk descripction. Plus, reading Power attack, it sais that off-hand and secondary natural attacks apply half damage. Maybe I'm just missing "if adds full strenght damage it's not an off-han attack" somewhere. Of course, I like more being able to do all Power attack damage.
About "martial flexibility" I know it has to be very good, but I don't have to much knowledge about combat feats so, I wanted to change it for another feature.
I don't think I would use the "feint" part of "Snakebite Striker", but some sneak attack and having the ability to declare an adjacent square as the origin of my attack (making easier to flank) it seems good enought to me to have the feint part unused and still take it.
For fighter (brawler), I've been reading teh description and FAQ several times and I can't see if it applies or not to this archetype:
At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level).
This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.
The part I've bolded is the one which makes me doubt; it not say "must select X weapon group" (like "Dragoon" archetype, the one used as an example on FAQ) but it especify "close weapon group" (not like archer, which say "with bows"; the other example from FAQ).
- Would I be able to select "Avdanced weapon training" feat with a fighter (brawler)?
- And the alternate option (called "Advanced weapon training" too) from figther class features?
The Barbarian "way" have drawn my attention, but it's inherent wildness it's not full compatible with the character I want. In the other hand, I haven't thought on MAD (str, dex and con) dependance, the big dex requires to TWF it's still very hight but maybe being barbarian you can afford less str thanks to rage. Maybe one day i'll try a wild child (not a druid) who bite, scratch, punch and so on; even if I will not use it as my first Pathfinder character, thanks for the idea :).
For Style feat, I was thinking on Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge. I've liked the posibility to stack all damage bedore apply any DR and being able to full attack / Flurry in a charge.
Finally, even with the agreement between my gm and I about the gauntlet, I would like to know how it officialy works for future games.
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
For what I've read it seems to be that the gauntlet it's a weapon completly apart from unarmed strike but, if so... What is the function of the part I've bolded? Maybe I'm just missing some subtle meaning of something like that.
Thank you all for your time and sorry for my (almost sure) typos and misspelling.
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For fighter (brawler), I've been reading teh description and FAQ several times and I can't see if it applies or not to this archetype:At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level).
This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.
The part I've bolded is the one which makes me doubt; it not say "must select X weapon group" (like "Dragoon" archetype, the one used as an example on FAQ) but it especify "close weapon group" (not like archer, which say "with bows"; the other example from FAQ).
- Would I be able to select "Avdanced weapon training" feat with a fighter (brawler)?
- And the alternate option (called "Advanced weapon training" too) from figther class...
Close Combatant does not specify that you must choose a weapon for weapon training, nor does it reference the Weapon Training feature, so it does not count as weapon training per the FAQ. You can't use it to qualify for advanced weapon training or weapon mastery feats, and gloves of dueling doesn't work with it.
The thing that made me think if the Brawler applies 50% of Power attack on off-hand attacks is the lack of "there is no such think like off hand attack" which it's specified on Monk descripction. Plus, reading Power attack, it sais that off-hand and secondary natural attacks apply half damage. Maybe I'm just missing "if adds full strenght damage it's not an off-han attack" somewhere. Of course, I like more being able to do all Power attack damage.
The text you're looking for is in the Brawler's Flurry class feature section.
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Brawler's Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler's flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can't use such weapons as part of brawler's flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler's flurry attacks.
At 8th level, the brawler gains use of the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry. At 15th level, she gains use of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler's flurry.
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So when you flurry, you'll do full strength damage and full Power Attack damage.
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But is there anything that explicitly says that the Power Attack return is derived from how much of your strength bonus you apply to an attack?
I know that's the pattern within the feat, and that a lot of people infer that things that change how much of your Str bonus you apply also changes your Power Attack returns, but the feat itself refers to off hand attacks and secondary natural attacks, not attacks that add 1/2 your Str modifier to damage.
Close Combatant does not specify that you must choose a weapon for weapon training, nor does it reference the Weapon Training feature, so it does not count as weapon training per the FAQ. You can't use it to qualify for advanced weapon training or weapon mastery feats, and gloves of dueling doesn't work with it.
What about the Unarmed Fighter archetype, which is still called "Weapon Training" but doesn't say you must choose a weapon for weapon training or otherwise reference the normal weapon training feature?
Hello everyone! ^^ At last I think I'll end up going 1-2 monk (Master of Many Styles) levels and 18-19 levels of fighter (no archetype). The GM agreed that, even if I'm dipping on monk, I can treat it as if it is a brawler, fighter, barbarian or whatever I want for fluff.
I'll go one or two monk levels (not brawler) because, even if the Brawler can apply full Str I'm not sure if he can "Full Power Attack" because off-han still being and off-hand even if getting full Str (or thats I what I gess). Beause I have to go monk to not lose half power attack on half of attacks. I'll decided to take "Master of Many Styles" as archetype and combine "Ascetic Style" with "Pummeling Style". This way I can go with a weapon and still take the benefits of Pummeling "line".
Despite of that, I'll want to be sure of one thing about Ascetic Style:
- When Ascetic Style say "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike"... does it mean that you can do improved dice damage with the weapon?
Thak you so much for giving you time and your help ^^
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RAW, yes.
However, the guy who wrote the feat says that was a mistake and the text was meant to read: “While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as any feat that augments an unarmed strike.” So that wouldn't include damage dice - you'd need Ascetic Form.