Take 10 and 20

[Kirbdog]

I have been trying to find out exactly how this works and found nothing but vague info.
My question is what skills can you take 10/20? I have been looking for a detailed list.

On a side note, I'm an unchained rogue, so main skills I'm questioning are take 10/20 on stealth? Perception? Disable Device(traps)? Disabe Device (locks)...

Now, when you take 10 do you roll the dice and add 10 to it plus bonuses?
Or is it figured that your dice roll is a 10 or 20 if you take 10/20. And then add your bonus?

Any help, and hopefully very detailed info is GREATLY appreciated.

Thank you,
And Happy Easter!

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

RAW, you can take 10 on any skill that does not say otherwise (like UMD) as long as the conditions are agreeable. However, there are GMs who dislike taking 10 (which was not available in the Good Old Days) and will impose tougher restrictions on it, although IMHO they really shouldn't.

You can take 20 whenever you have the time to spare and there are no ill consequences for failure. For instance, you could spend two minutes taking 20 for a Perception roll looking for traps, but could not take 20 on the Disable Device roll for the trap because a failure could actively hurt you. You could certainly take 20 when using Disable Device on a lock, since there are no penalties for bad rolls.

When you take 10 you pretend the die came up 10 instead of rolling it. When you take 20 you pretend the die was rolled repeatedly, generating all possible outcomes, and ending in a 20, which you then use. In either case you get to add the same bonuses you would add had you actually rolled.

Hope this helps, and may the Easter Bunny bless you and keep you.

[Melkiador]

Taking 10 is meant to represent doing something calmly, carefully and non-exceptionally. Consider that in real life you could climb a ladder hundreds of times without failing. But if I were trying to climb a ladder to get away from danger, then I would be neither calm nor careful, and may indeed slip and fail. Taking 10 can also be a real time saver, as you don't need to reroll numerous inconsequential checks.

[JamZilla]

The guys have essentially covered everything relevant here. Taking ten represents when you could reasonably accomplish something with a little bit of care and attention as Melkiador illustrates - I could probably climb a chain link fence pretty easily in normal circumstances. If I was being chased by a rabid dog at the same time, probably not - I better roll well on that climb check.

The debate really begins when people bring knowledge checks in to the fold. There is nothing to my mind that suggests you cannot take 10 on knowledge checks aside from in combat because the skill follows all the usual rules for taking 10. The exception to this is the Bard's Loremaster ability which allows them to take 10 on knowledge checks in combat.

At least that's how I understand it and hopefully I haven't jsut opened up a can of worms!

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Taking 10 on Knowledge checks was controversial until this FAQ settled it.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Oh, and one other sometimes-controversial thing is how long it takes to take 10 (because taking 20 takes 20 times as long as one normal attempt). Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check. Don't let your GM screw you on this one.

And here is another useful post on taking 10 by SKR (then a Paizo developer).

[Avoron]

Incidentally, there is some precedent for being unable to take 10 on extremely risky endeavors with horrible consequences for failure, because such a risk can constitute a "significant and distracting threat." In the linked situation, for example, contact other plane does not allow for taking 10 even outside of combat and with no external influences - just the extreme threat of failure can be distracting enough. Of course, it's up to individual GMs to determine when they think such a distraction occurs.

[_Ozy_]

Yeah, but that is an extremely bad precedent. It basically eliminates take 10 on climb checks for tall cliffs and walls, guaranteeing failure unless you can succeed on a take 1.

[Avoron]

Eh...that's why real world climbers use harnesses and the like so a fall doesn't mean death. Fortunately, in Pathfinder most falls aren't actually life-threatening in the least - you hit the ground, it hurts a lot, and someone casts a spell to heal you.

Plus, at GM discretion there's the potential to become acclimated to the task so that it no longer serves as a distraction. The "distractions or threats" terminology used in the take 10 description is deliberately vague so that GMs can run it how they want to, and there are certainly some instances when the risk of falling might significantly distract - I probably wouldn't let PCs take 10 for climbing over a sphere of annihilation. I don't see it as a bad precedent because it just gives GMs a justification for ruling in the way they think is the most effective and sensible.

[_Ozy_]

Everything is at the GM's discretion, that doesn't mean the precedent isn't bad.

You can contrive a 'distraction' for many checks that will result in penalties. What happens with Contact Another Plane? You're out of commission for a number of weeks. How is that any more or less distracting than a fall that could kill you?

Sure, at high level, you just suck up the damage. However, low to medium level means you can't climb a significant cliff/wall without risking death, which, absent 'take 10' means PCs will only attempt to make long climbs that they can succeed with a DC 1.

Also, there are real world climbers that free climb, even difficult routes. They don't plummet to their doom every 50' or so. In fact, people engage in risky activities that could mean death or injury ALL THE TIME, and yet they don't die 1 out of 20 times. They take 10 because they are careful and it's a routine activity without external distraction.

Anyways, the reason they ruled they way they did was so that Contact Other Plane checks wouldn't auto succeed with a take 10. That's it. Their justification about 'distraction' was entirely post hoc, and I just ignore it.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Agreed. They should have just special-cased contact other plane.

[Cevah]

Um, Contact Other Plane states "You cannot take 10 on this check." The FAQ for the spell should be removed, as the spell explicitly prohibits it.

I recall the rationale was that your mind was being placed in contact with a mind of much greater power, and it was essentially like combat to stay sane.

Basic rules:
Take 10: Bad consequences can be avoided. Takes the same amount of time as normal. Treats the check as if you rolled a 10 on the d20. Can only be done when the skill allows it and you are not distracted or in combat.

Take 20: Assumes you fail lots before you succeed. Cannot be used if there is a consequence for failure. Takes 20 times as long as normal. Cannot be used when distracted or in combat.

UMD prohibits Take 10/Take 20 explicitly.
Knowledge prohibits Take 20 because of the Retry:No.

As mentioned, some GM's don't like it. Apparently Pazio doesn't like it much either. Since it is NOT a FAQ, it has no authoritative force.

Fuzzy-Wuzzy mentioned Sean K Reynolds, and he has this to say:

Quote:

The purpose of Take 10 is to allow you to avoid the swinginess of the d20 roll in completing a task that should be easy for you. A practiced climber (5 ranks in Climb) should never, ever fall when climbing a practice rock-climbing wall at a gym (DC 15) as long as he doesn't rush and isn't distracted by combat, trying to juggle, and so on. Take 10 means he doesn't have to worry about the randomness of rolling 1, 2, 3, or 4.

The rule is there to prevent weirdness from the fact that you can roll 1 on tasks you shouldn't fail at under normal circumstances.

I'm not an athlete, but I can easily to a standing broad jump of 5-6 feet, over and over again without fail. It doesn't matter if I'm jumping over a piece of tape on the floor or a deep pit... I can make that jump. With a running start, it's even easier. If I were an adventurer, a 5-foot-diameter pit would be a trivial obstacle. Why waste game time making everyone roll to jump over the pit? Why not let them Take 10 and get on to something relevant to the adventure that's actually a threat, like a trap, monster, or shady NPC?

Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things.

/cevah

[N N 959]

Melkiador wrote:

Taking 10 is meant to represent doing something calmly, carefully and non-exceptionally.

Here's is what the actual Take 10 rule says,

PRD wrote:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

You'll note that there is nothing in this rule that speaks to the disposition of the character. Taking 10 is a choice by the player, not the character. From the character's perspective, Taking 10 is no different than actually rolling the die.

One of the main reasons Take 10 exist is because the skill system would be truly stupid without it. Take 10 allows the notion of competence. Without Take 10, no creature could exhibit competence at a reasonable skill level.

If a player actually wanted to have the character take time and do it as carefully as possible, then the GM should increase the time factor and give the player a circumstance bonus. Of course not all tasks can benefit from being "careful."

[CountofUndolpho]

_Ozy_ wrote:

...

Also, there are real world climbers that free climb, even difficult routes. They don't plummet to their doom every 50' or so. In fact, people engage in risky activities that could mean death or injury ALL THE TIME, and yet they don't die 1 out of 20 times. They take 10 because they are careful and it's a routine activity without external distraction.
...

Free climbing can mean a number of things depending on location and tradition, usually "not Aid climbing". Climbing without protection at all would be just "soloing" here in Yorkshire (and as far as I know the UK in general). Sorry for the digression.

Personally my fall off when soloing is well below 1 in 200...