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If you were to plot the number of ninjas compared to their individual power, you would find that a steeper slope/curve at higher power levels in Pathfinder, than you will in 5E. The law still exist for both games, but the numbers required to be a challenge at specific power levels is different.
For example, a 15th level Fighter in PF might be able to handle 200 level 1 ninjas, while in 5E, a similar character might only be able to handle 20. As you increase the level of the ninjas, the number each fighter can handle decreases, until you raise the ninja level high enough that the Fighter can only take on one ninja.
The law of conservation is preserved, but the slope/curve is different.
So, ninjas....Can you do me a favor and restate your hypothesis?
Bounded accuracy lessens the extremes in competence between 1 super ninja and a horde of regular ninjas.
Bounded accuracy lessens the extremes in competence between 1 super ninja and a horde of regular ninjas.So, ninjas....Can you do me a favor and restate your hypothesis?
Oh; yeah. That's certainly true. Primarily because the designers wanted low level threats to remain a threat, and they wanted low level NPCs to be able to assist high level characters in a meaningful manner.
So naturally, the difference in raw numbers between low level and high level is smaller than the difference between low and high in PF. But to compensate for that, 5e gives out a lot of class features that creates a non-numerical power difference.
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A single super ninja would likely be a legendary creature, which changes the entire challenge/CR proposition. If anyone wants to pillory me for agreeing with GWL, that's fine, but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.
A single super ninja would likely be a legendary creature, which changes the entire challenge/CR proposition. If anyone wants to pillory me for agreeing with GWL, that's fine, but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.
It kind of depends. Is our ninja following PC rules or Monster Manual rules? They are different.
I thought the conversation was about making a PC ninja.
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but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.
Yes, me too. The Unicorn is a good example of it. Unfortunately, it is not an antagonist in most campaigns.
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but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.Yes, me too. The Unicorn is a good example of it. Unfortunately, it is not an antagonist in most campaigns.
It could be the protagonist - depending on how antagonistic your players are. ;)
A single super ninja would likely be a legendary creature, which changes the entire challenge/CR proposition. If anyone wants to pillory me for agreeing with GWL, that's fine, but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.It kind of depends. Is our ninja following PC rules or Monster Manual rules? They are different.
I thought the conversation was about making a PC ninja.
I assumed the conversation was about converting PF encounters (that is, NPC ninjas) to 5e.
. . . I've been wrong before. Like, very very wrong.
A single super ninja would likely be a legendary creature, which changes the entire challenge/CR proposition. If anyone wants to pillory me for agreeing with GWL, that's fine, but I wish there were more (any?) low level legendary creatures in the MM.It kind of depends. Is our ninja following PC rules or Monster Manual rules? They are different.
I thought the conversation was about making a PC ninja.
I assumed the conversation was about converting PF encounters (that is, NPC ninjas) to 5e.
. . . I've been wrong before. Like, very very wrong.
Even still; let's say you're correct. The OP gave an example of PF's high numbers at high levels vs low numbers at low levels. The large difference is how PF separates the powerful from the weak. The difference in numbers between a high level character or high CR monster/NPC from a low level/CR is much smaller. We have a smaller delta value in 5e.
Is this a problem? Well, if you only look at the numbers, then yes, it is a problem. But 5e diverges from PF by changing the paradigm from a numerical difference to class features. The focus on features is what makes a powerful character stand out from their lower level counterparts.
So even if we have a high level character or high CR NPC ninja, the difference between the powerful and the weak should be what they can do through features, not what they can do through numbers. Although, the stronger ninja will still have some better numbers, it's just a smaller delta compared to PF.
An example of only looking at the numbers was the doctor scenario presented one page 1 - where a doctor only has a 40% chance improvement over the average joe. But if we actually made a doctor for 5e, it wouldn't be an adventure class in the PHB, it would have to be something else with specific doctor features that enhanced their ability. Additionally, a doctor would have a lot of medicine related tasks that they would just auto-pass due to having proficiency in medicine - their results would not be uncertain, unlike average joe who does not have the same training.
Does that make sense?
Omigod, Bookrat, you had me at "delta value." Yes, your post makes sense. :)
I was kind of thinking of NPC ninjas.
Like one encounter with 100 ninjas would be a breeze, but a later encounter with 1 ninja would be a (nearly) TPK.
I blame Daredevil, season 2, for all this talk about ninjas. :-P
But PC ninjas would also be a fun conversation. Monk/Rogue? Ranger? Dips into any fun classes?
I've made some CR 7 BBEGs with Legendary Actions. But not Legendary Saves, which was a mistake. :-P
So compare the drow. Drow are CR 1/4, 15 HP, decent attack and damage, and not much else. The drow elite warrior is CR 5, has 71 HP, slightly better attack bonus and more attacks with Multiattack, and a ton more damage with poison. They also have ranged attacks, so they get a bit more options. Then the drow priestess is CR 8, has 71 HP, Multiattack, poison, spells, and demon summoning.
The attack modifiers don't change much; +4, +7, and +5 respectively. But as their CR increases, their HP, damage, and options increase.
So a low level ninja would just be a warrior wth some attack, low HP, moderate damage, and maybe can disengage or hide as a free action.
A high level ninja probably has a ton of HP, decent attack, Multiattack (2-3 times), disengage as a bonus, blends with crowds, hide as a bonus, can jump like champion (or a monk? Do monks have good jumps?) - maybe even an at-will jump spell, moves in cities like an Urchin, has poison attacks, and can disarm opponents. We could make them legendary by giving them legendary saves and maybe a legendary action/reaction that can cut through spells 1/round. And they can summon low CR ninjas as a distraction.
The difference between their attack numbers and CR may only be a handful of points, but there's a definite power difference based on features.
Ninjas would probably have a Parry reaction, probably a bonus action flurry of shuriken in addition to Dash, Disengage, and Hide; some additional poison damage, and maybe a distraction ability to buff allies with advantage on attack rolls?
I think regular ninjas would have pretty good AC, but relatively low hit points. They seem hard to hit, but easy to drop if hit.
Definitely good at Acrobatics and jumping.
Yeah. Whatever they have, though, the high level ninja will be distinguished by their additional abilities, not necessarily thier bonuses to hit.
True that!
Maybe even Legendary Actions!!!!
Yeah. Whatever they have, though, the high level ninja will be distinguished by their additional abilities, not necessarily thier bonuses to hit.
I think a High Level Ninja could be distinguished by their additional abilities AND their bonuses to hit.
Give the Ninja a High Dex plus an additional +2 to their stats for a +6 DEX, another +6 for their proficiency bonus, and some +3 Shurikens or a finesse type weapon which would give them a +15 to hit...plenty of goodness there.
Add in expertise for skills like Stealth (so with a +6 DEX, +12 to Stealth, gives them a +18 to basically hide like a beast)...
you do it as a Rogue, at high level you can have advantage, and you use the Elusive ability...can be a pretty great combo.
Then you add in sneak attack damage (+10d6) and it starts looking like a death merchant...
You can have a pretty lethal combination with a Ninja with that...
Though, it is right that they aren't defined by their BAB...a +15 to hit is definitely going to help on a stealth/surprise/attack situation.
Then put a little poison on the blade...
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Neutral Evil Medium Humanoid
AC: 21 (Unarmored Defense)
HP: 170 (20d8+80)
Speed: 40 ft., Climb: 40 ft., Swim: 20 ft.
STR: 14 (+2), DEX: 22 (+6), CON: 18 (+4), INT: 12 (+1), WIS: 20 (+5), CHA: 16 (+3)
Saving Throws: Str +8, Dex +12, Con +9, Wis +11
Skills: Acrobatics +18, Athletics +8, Deception +9, Investigate +7, Perception +17, Stealth +18
Damage Immunity: poison
Condition Immunity: poisoned
Senses: passive Perception 17
Languages: Common, Thieves’ Cant
Challenge: 20
Special Abilities:
Assassinate: During its first turn, the ninja master has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn. Any hit the ninja master scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.
Evade: If the ninja master is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a saving throw to take only half damage, the ninja master instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.
Cunning Action: The ninja master can use its bonus action to take an additional action.
Sneak Attack: Once per turn, the ninja master deals an extra 35 (10d6) damage when it hits a target with a weapon attack and has advantage on the attack roll, or when the target is within 5 feet of an ally of the ninja master that isn’t incapacitated and the ninja master doesn’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
Spellcasting: The master ninja is a 20th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 19, +11 to hit with spell attacks).
o Cantrips (at will): guidance, mage hand, minor image, prestidigitation, resistance
o 1st level (4 slots): disguise self, expeditious retreat, featherfall, jump, shield
o 2nd level (3 slots): blur, invisibility, magic weapon, mirror image, misty step
o 3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, haste, stinking cloud
o 4th level (3 slots): dimension door
o 5th level (2 slots): cloudkill
Unarmored Defense: The ninja has an AC of 10 + its Dexterity modifier + its Wisdom modifier.
ACTIONS_______________________________
Multiattack: The ninja master can make 2 attacks with its ninja-to or shuriken.
Ninja-to: Melee Weapon Attack +12 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8+6) slashing damage, and the target must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 33 (6d10) poison damage and become poisoned for 1 minute on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Shuriken: Ranged Weapon Attack: +12 to hit, range 30/60 ft., one target. Hit: 10 (1d8 + 6) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 33 (6d10) poison damage and become poisoned for 1 minute on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Neutral Evil Medium Humanoid
AC: 15 (Unarmored Defense)
HP: 16 (3d8+3)
Speed: 30 ft.
STR: 10 (+0), DEX: 16 (+3), CON: 12 (+1), INT: 10 (+0), WIS: 14 (+2), CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws: Str +2, Dex +5
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Deception +1, Perception +4, Stealth +7
Senses: passive Perception 14
Languages: Common, Thieves’ Cant
Challenge: 1
Special Abilities:
Assassinate: During its first turn, the ninja minion has advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn. Any hit the ninja minion scores against a surprised creature is a critical hit.
Evade: If the ninja minion is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a saving throw to take only half damage, the ninja minion instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.
Cunning Action: The ninja minion can use its bonus action to take the Dash, Disengage, Help, or Hide action.
Sneak Attack: Once per turn, the ninja master deals an extra 7 (2d6) damage when it hits a target with a weapon attack and has advantage on the attack roll, or when the target is within 5 feet of an ally of the ninja master that isn’t incapacitated and the ninja master doesn’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
Unarmored Defense: The ninja has an AC of 10 + its Dexterity modifier + its Wisdom modifier.
ACTIONS_______________________________
Multiattack: The ninja minion can make 2 attacks with its shuriken.
Ninja-to: Melee Weapon Attack +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d8+3) slashing damage, and the target must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw, taking 5 (1d10) poison damage or half as much damage on a successful one.
Shuriken: Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 30/60 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d4 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw, taking 5 (1d10) poison damage, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Just spitballing here. I need to check the DMG for CR 20 appropriate AC and HP and stuff.
The Assassin is a nice CR 7 or 8 ninja.
That's not how NPCs really work though, GreyWolfLord.
I was doing it for a PC, not the NPC type.
with NPC's, I'll take the 5e approach of loose and fast with the rules if I have to do it on the fly, or however the module has them designed if using a module...or adapted the best I can figure if adapting from another adventure from another system.