Hi guys,
do I understand the rules right, that I can upgrade my Page of Spell Knowledge so it will contain multiple spell by following rules for multiple similar abilities?
I was not able to find direct url on d20pfsrd.com so it is 1 headline above.
For example Page of Spell Knowledge with one 3rd level, two 2nd level and three 1st level spells should cost only 1×(9000) + 0,75×(4000) + 0,5×(4000+1000+1000) = 15 000 gp.
Am I right?
If not, please include the rule that says otherwise.
No, that is not how it works.
Rules pricing is a general guideline, but the players don't actually get to decide how to price things, GMs do.
It's obviously non-sense to have it be cheaper to buy them as one lump item instead of buying each individually.
It's also unclear what counts as multiple similar abilities.
Nope, no sneaky discounts.
Add them all together.
I like your argument. Thanks guys.
I am trying to imagine on what magic items (beside staves) could be rules for multiple similar abilities applied. I will try to find answer in old threads.
A ring of protection +2 that also functions as a cloak of resistance +2. You would pay the cost of the RoP + (CoR + 50%). There may also be a cost for changing the item type of the Cloak of Res from cloak to ring. There are lots of examples of unique items that have multiple abilities - particularly in the APs.
I am looking for examples ofFor items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.Ring of protection combined with Cloak of Resistance uses rules forAbilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Something modal, like a ring of protection with the abilities of a cloak of reistance, but only one can be active at a time and you have to use a standard action to switch between them, would justify multiple similar abilities discount.
I am looking for examples ofFor items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
In general, they're talking about staves and other spell-trigger items with multiple similar spells. It makes thematic sense that my Staff of Fire would allow me burning hands as well as fireball or flame strike. But there are some inherent limitations that mean this flexibility doesn't really turn in to Phenomenal Cosmic Power. I can't use multiple abilities at once, and they all drain the same charge reserve.
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players don't actually get to decide how to price things, GMs do.
+1
It's obviously non-sense to have it be cheaper to buy them as one lump item instead of buying each individually.
It's also unclear what counts as multiple similar abilities.
+1, It is the OP not understanding the meaning of the rules.
It's also unclear what counts as multiple similar abilities.
MSA are things that use the same resource pool. An example is Staff. Other items with charges (like 1 per day) and you choose when you use the charge between several options.
So the OP may make a Ring of Spell Knowledge if the ring had only 1 spell the be used in a day, and gave you multiple choices.
This is actually something that I want to explore more. I think that Staves and Pages of Spell Knowledge are similar in three aspects:
1. You cannot use their casting ability multiple times in one moment.
2. They are using the same pool to trigger an effect (charges for Staves, spell slots for Pages of Spell Knowledge).
3. When combing abilities the crafter is using the same medium (unlike for example combining: Ring of Protection and Cloak of Resistance; or Ioun Stones of different colours, qualities and shapes).
Orfamay Quest and James Risner – Does it correspond with your view for Multiple Similar Abilities?
In general, they're talking about staves and other spell-trigger items with multiple similar spells. It makes thematic sense that my Staff of Fire would allow me burning hands as well as fireball or flame strike. But there are some inherent limitations that mean this flexibility doesn't really turn in to Phenomenal Cosmic Power. I can't use multiple abilities at once, and they all drain the same charge reserve.
MSA are things that use the same resource pool. An example is Staff. Other items with charges (like 1 per day) and you choose when you use the charge between several options.
players don't actually get to decide how to price things, GMs do.Actually I am GM and I am looking for most RAW and RAI answer.
+1, It is the OP not understanding the meaning of the rules.It's obviously non-sense to have it be cheaper to buy them as one lump item instead of buying each individually.
It's also unclear what counts as multiple similar abilities.
I think my understanding of rules make sense by maybe it is not same as intended by authors.
There is a part you missed:3 An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.So a single slotless item with 5 magical affects each costing as you described would be
(1×(9000) + 0,75×(4000) + 0,5×(4000+1000+1000) ) x2 = 30 000 gp
I think that ×2 multiplier has been already calculated in to the price of normal Page of Spell Knowledge (9000 for 3rd level spell) so we do not need to multiply it one more time as I presume you have just suggested.
One Page...One Spell... That's the rule. Ask your GM to break it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Orfamay Quest and James Risner – Does it correspond with your view for Multiple Similar Abilities?
When I said pool, I didn't mean your pool of spell slots. I was talking about your pool of uses on the ring.
Maybe your GM would allow you to have 3 spells and only one can be used in a given day. I wouldn't as a GM. But since GM's are entirely in charge of all costs for all items a GM shouldn't allow too many things that tip the balance for low cost.
Drahliana Moonrunner – rules as written (RAW) – I agree.
But I do not think that the wording: "...a single...spell..." in Page of Spell Knowledge was meant to prevent adding Multiple Similar Abilities (MSA).
I will try to start new post about MSA to find/define the true meaning collaboratively.
The only limitation is an unlikely corner case: A Page of Spell Knowledge has two or more spells on it, and you have multiple spontaneous casters in your party who each want a different spell from that Page. If multiple spells are on a single Page of Spell Knowledge, they all have to go to one person -- there is no way to share them.
But, as I said, that is an unlikely corner case.
Drahliana Moonrunner – rules as written (RAW) – I agree.
But I do not think that the wording: "...a single...spell..." in Page of Spell Knowledge was meant to prevent adding Multiple Similar Abilities (MSA).
** spoiler omitted **
I will try to start new post about MSA to find/define the true meaning collaboratively.
Multiple Similar Abilities are a corner case. The magic item guidelines advise that not all allowable things by formula should be allowed. I think it severely violates the flavor of the item to cram multiple spells on a single Page.
MSA's should rarely be allowed because they are so frequently game breaking. And even if allowed, GMs should really consider a ceiling on how many should be put on a given item.
As others have said, multiple similar abilities are so vanishingly rare as to be almost irrelevant.
To qualify I would start with each ability having its own activation cost and being impossible to use currently. So a ring with command activation fireball and scorching ray might qualify, but a ring with command activation barkskin and magic vestment would not. The would also have to use the same pool of resources. So our fire ring, might count if it had 5 charges for either fireball or scorching ray, but not if it had 5 sorching ray and 5 fireball (additionally if both were unlimited it could still work.)
Lastly, if when you are done, and you don't have any reason the multiple similar items shouldn't qualify, but the item seems too good, then you should remove that discount.
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There is no rule limiting the number of different pages of spell knowledge that you can have so you can easily have access to multiple spells.
On the other hand the general table has the voice:
"Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5"
While the rule that you want to use appear in two locations:
At the base of the table:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
and again under the staves:
Creating StavesTo create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.
I haven't seen it used for anything beside the staves.
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You might also want to consider some of the rules on spellbooks, where a spell takes up one page of the spellbook per level. So, technically, a Page of Spell Knowledge should be a number of pages equal to spel level, which might allow putting two cantrips on one page, but not any higher level spells.
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A Page of Spell Knowledge is already a fairly cheesy way of sidestepping sorcerers' hard limits on the number of spells known. Its only saving grace is its relatively high cost.
So I would hope that most DMs would not approve of any sneaky way of lowering that cost. After all, if you've got the dosh, you can have as many such "pages" as you want, and sew them together into a nice little book.
Also note the precedent with wizards' spellbooks, where one page per level is mobilized. Even if that spell is just one word. So sorcerers are really getting a bargain with these pages.
No reason to allow any changes to this item that I can see.
Au contraire, I think it is too easy to sidestep the limit.
C'est certain!
I've never actually played a sorcerer (either in PF or in DD3.5) simply because that limit on spells known seemed too limiting to me, and the concept of a wizard who can learn to master all forms of magic feels too right.So besides pages of spell knowledge and rings of spell knowledge (both fairly pricey dodges, all things considered) what other ways are there?
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Au contraire, I think it is too easy to sidestep the limit.C'est certain!
I've never actually played a sorcerer (either in PF or in DD3.5) simply because that limit on spells known seemed too limiting to me, and the concept of a wizard who can learn to master all forms of magic feels too right.So besides pages of spell knowledge and rings of spell knowledge (both fairly pricey dodges, all things considered) what other ways are there?
The big one?
Human (and all the half human races, plus a few others) favored class bonus: "Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."The other spontaneous spellcasting class get the same bonus.
17 more spells.
Then the feats:
Expanded Arcana: 1 extra spell of your maximum level or 2 of a lower level. With retraining you will always get 1 spell of the highest level you can cast.
One from the Pathfinder society (can't recall the name) that let you use once a day one spell from a written source as a know spell, without using the source (so you can use any spell on a wizard spellbook).
Another magic item is the Mnemonic vestment.
You can use it only once/day, but nothing stop you from having several of them, so benefiting multiple times in a day from the effect.
And I am sure I am missing a few other tricks.
Drahliana Moonrunner – rules as written (RAW) – I agree.
But I do not think that the wording: "...a single...spell..." in Page of Spell Knowledge was meant to prevent adding Multiple Similar Abilities (MSA).
** spoiler omitted **
I will try to start new post about MSA to find/define the true meaning collaboratively.
You're missing a key rule on pricing magic items: "The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item."
You're skipping the very first step. There clearly is an existing item which has a defined price which operates identically to your proposed new item: multiple Pages of Spell Knowledge. As they're slotless items, the abilities of them is almost identical to the abilities of having one with multiple spells known. Thus, the price should be the same by the explicit rule.
For a 'Multiple Spells on a Page of Spell Knowledge' to qualify for a discount, you could make such a Page where you had to choose which single spell on it was available at the start of each day; the others wouldn't be usable.
For Mnemonic Vestments: my GM has ruled that multiple Vestments don't work - they allow a wearer to gain the use of one spell from a scroll and changing into a fresh Vestment gains nothing since you already chose the use of a single scroll. This might not be how the item was intended to work, but this way my spontaneous caster can't abuse lots of them and unbalance the game (further...).
If my players asked me for this, I'd tell them it cost the extra 50% on each additional spell because it saved them from switching papers around between castings, and made it easier to protect.
There is no requirement to have the Page in hand. It works as long as 'the bearer' has it. A question left unanswered is whether it still works if it is in a Bag of Holding or equivalent.
The rest of your points are sound and good.
If my players asked me for this, I'd tell them it cost the extra 50% on each additional spell because it saved them from switching papers around between castings, and made it easier to protect.
There is no requirement to have the Page in hand. It works as long as 'the bearer' has it. A question left unanswered is whether it still works if it is in a Bag of Holding or equivalent.
The 50% more to combine rule would be better applied to a Spell Lattice, which has a weight (1 lb) and has to be held. The only plus they have to compensate for those downsides is that Arcanists can use them and you don't have to worry about Arcane/Divine/Psychic versions, anyone can use any spell as long as its on your list, so Oracles, Sorcerers, and Psychics can trade spell lattices freely for shared spells.