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@Miedok: I was more thinking to give him tenits similar to the Grey Fox from Oblivion refarding beggers. Hey may chew someone out or confront someone if he sees what they are doing to the orphans or beggers. Though true, my vauge speach gave way for loopholes like the orphaned goblins.
1. Any ideas for a rewrite?
2. True... I was thinking something along the lines of if they have somethinv that proves themselves loyal to the group than you have him 100% and subsequently if you do something to betray the group he will drop to 0%.
3. I like if fo be honest.
4. How would yoy write this in the code od the Grey Fox Thieves Guild?
@Greylurker: I suck at card counting though. But I love the idea.
Am I Miedok? There's a new one.
I think you'd be better off with a Ninja. No alignment restrictions and they've got some really cool throwing-related ki abilities.
But to answer your questions. Let's see, grey fox of the theives's guild in the elder scrolls setting. I'd start with the three tenants of the Theives Guild:
1. Never steal from another member of the guild.
2. Never kill anyone on the job. This is not the Dark Brotherhood. Animals and Monsters can be slain if necessary.
3. Don't steal from the poor. The peasants and beggars are under the personal protection of the Gray Fox, particularly on the Waterfront.
I'd amend #1 to refer to the Pathfinder Society (or whatever faction your PC is aligned to, if none, then your party) instead of the guild.
#2 is a great one, though it will be a really hard one in pathfinder. In this case, "on the job" refers to while following a quest.
#3 is nice as is.
I'd argue that your character sees cheating in cards as stealing, with regards to these tenants at least. So no cheating in cards with guild/party members and never against the poor.
I'd still look for at least 10. Something along the lines of:
#1-5 should be important, difficult things that will greatly affect you in game. The three above, something about honesty and one regarding loyalty to family or party should be solid choices.
#6-8 should be petty things that your character just always does in a certain way. Daily ritual type things, like washing hands, or a specific order in which to eat food.
#9-10(+) should regard situations where the above can be broken or disregarded. And the consequences for disregarding such rules should be detailed, if only indirectly.
And again, I'd go by intelligence points. So if you've only got 8 intelligence, you probably don't have any situations where the above can be broken, just the important and petty ones as absolutes. Meanwhile, a character with 18 intelligence probably has an elaborate system of situations where the normal rules don't apply and new rules take their place.
And regarding the petty ones, you character sees them all equal, so even if they seem petty (and are), your character sees them as extremely important.
Finally, one note regarding moral codes. If, over the course of your character's life, you find that a particular tenant just doesn't work, you can change it. This shouldn't be done lightly, but being lawful doesn't mean unable to learn.
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Most card sharks don't actually cheat, and I don't even know how you would cheat at darts. So - being a card/dart shark in no way requires being a cheater at all, so the whole question is pretty moot.Hustling cards isn't necessarily breaking the rules but alluding you are not an expert, which is a common "shark" trope in general. Like losing to a friend on purpose only to defeat the local experts.
Exactly - that's the standard hustling someone game. Or losing the first several rounds at low stakes only to jack up the stakes (to 'win it all back') and bringing out your A game.
None of which is cheating or unlawful. Not unless one considers all bluffing to be unlawful (silliness). Arguably a paladin might get into trouble (I don't think so as long as the pali didn't actually lie - but an argument could be made that way), but no one else should have any issues.
Am I Miedok? There's a new one.
Sorry about that, I was on my Phone at the time and to late to edit. I sometimes press the wrong keys on my phone accidentally.
I think you'd be better off with a Ninja. No alignment restrictions and they've got some really cool throwing-related ki abilities.
True, but I've already gone so far into the idea of a Lawful Cheater who uses cards as weapons, then just the simple "Throw". That and PFS won't let me use Cards as Shuiken due to RAW.
I'd argue that your character sees cheating in cards as stealing, with regards to these tenants at least. So no cheating in cards with guild/party members and never against the poor.
I'd still look for at least 10. Something along the lines of:
#1-5...
Oh I must have misunderstood.... I thought you were talking per Modifier Point not per point per point... Makes me want to play a less intelligent character now. That being said, I think I have some good codes to follow for this character.
*Lawful Code of the Cheater*
Rule 1 - Never steal from or cheat against another member of the Pathfinder Society.
Rule 2 - Never kill an innocent during the job, we are not assassins. Animals and Monsters can be slain if necessary.
Rule 3 - Never steal from or cheat against the peasants and beggars in any settlement.
Rule 4 - Never beg for anything. If they deny you, find another way to acquire what you need.
Rule 5 - Never rely on brute strength on your first attempt. Charm and Wit should be enough every time.
Rule 6 - Always throw the Old Maid (Ace of Clubs) first for a lucky start. It's unlucky otherwise.
Rule 7 - Always bring several decks of cards. They are useful for more then just playing games.
Rule 8 - Never leave a lady unattended unless requested.
Rule 9 - Cheat against those who cheat against you. This overrules Rule 1 and Rule 3.
Rule 10 - Do not leave the job unfinished. Complete what you were paid for. This overrules all other rules.
What do you think? Any you would add or remove or alter? I give you free reign over these to do with what you think would work for the Lawful Cheater.
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@hiiamtom and Charon's Little Helper
But then that defeats the whole purpose of what I'm trying to do... lol.
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As a side note - I have flagged this thread to be moved into the Advice forum. Originally the question was for the rules. Now I'm asking advice for the Alignment change "Code".
Can you also edit the first post whoever moves this?
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I agree that hustling doesn't necessarily require cheating, and using skill to improve your odds is plenty lawful.
*Rising above / not being consumed by chaos.
Rules made by the strong to oppress the weak deserve to be broken.
Everyone deserves the chance to make their own rules.
I make my own luck.
When I enter a contest, I do everything I can to win.
I will not prey upon those who can't afford to lose.
Loyalty is the greatest virtue. I will always do everything I can to support companions who are loyal to me. I will never betray a friend, and do my best to punish traitors.
I will do what I can to help those weaker than me, especially orphans, and give to those in need. I won't ask to be rewarded for this, but I won't turn down a reward either.
3.) I will not beg for anything I cannot take. If they say no, I will find othee ways of aquireing what I seek. I will never ask something from someone who cannot afford it unless I promise payment in return.
2 hours, 59 minutes ago
Well that sucks... Can someone explain why they have a time limit on edit? That being said, I think I like the suggestions Weirdo gave. Some of them sound very chaotic, but I think I'll alter the previous code I've suggested. Tweaking it after getting Weido's impression.
Tenet 1 - Everyone deserves the chance to make their own rules. Make your own luck and follow your heart.
Tenet 2 - Never give anything less than what you have to give. Always reach for 100% of your potential.
Tenet 3 - Do not prey upon the peasants and beggars and never take from those who cannot afford it.
Tenet 4 - Loyalty is the greatest virtue. Always aid those who are loyal to you and never betray a friend.
Tenet 5 - Always help those weaker than you, and give to those in need. Never ask for rewards but never reject them either.
Tenet 6 - Do not beg for anything in life and work for what you seek. Nothing worth having is easy to obtain.
Tenet 7 - Never kill someone who does not deserve to die. We are not assassins. Animals and Monsters can be slain if necessary.
Tenet 8 - Use your Charm and Cunning to your advantage. Brute force should not be used as your first option.
Tenet 9 - Always smile and have high spirits. Lady luck smiles upon those who are bold and adventurous.
Rule 10 - Do not leave the job unfinished and complete what you were paid for. If you cannot complete the job then return the money.
2 hours, 59 minutes ago
Well that sucks... Can someone explain why they have a time limit on edit?
Probably so people don't go back and retcon their coversations in order to make themselves look better.
Still happens I am sure, but the pace of a forum usually makes it impractical in the span of an hour.
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I wouldn't go with Int score tenets. It sounds like a way to justify dumping Int and I compulsively refuse to. (And would a CN need anti-tenets? How do I write 13 of those for my poor barbarian?)
My main issue with the number is just how many there are. At a certain point it gets to be a bit of an issue keeping track of it all. Now, if you're fine with it, then you're fine with it. Make fifty if you want (and, at that point, sink some skill ranks into Profession (author) and make some gold!).
I do like the idea of being raised to see that there's a ... let's say metagame when it comes to the local card sharks. One with its own rules and rules lawyers, albeit ones who settle things with a knife in the back rather than a 423-post thread. In such an environment, a reputation for 'honour among thieves' is an asset. And of course you still have the other disciplines you need to be a healthy monk (or, really, whatever LX alignment you want). Your motives for playing The Game can be noble, selfish, or whatever, but you're still working The Game by The Rules. You don't do business in this town if you don't play by The Rules. Capice?
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That being said, I think I like the suggestions Weirdo gave. Some of them sound very chaotic, but I think I'll alter the previous code I've suggested. Tweaking it after getting Weido's impression.
Glad you liked it. I accidentally posted before I was quite finished and posted by mistake. Let me see if I can help rework the chaotic bits into something more lawful, but still fitting your character:
Tenet 1 - Everyone deserves the chance to make their own rules. Make your own luck and follow your heart.
"Follow your heart" is pretty chaotic, and "everyone makes their own rules" is sort of borderline. Suggest reworking it into 2-3 separate points, more or less:
"Make your own luck. Know the odds, and take every opportunity to improve yours." (If you want something more evocative and more suggestive of active cheating, try: take every opportunity to stack the deck in your favour.)
"Knowing the rules of the game gives you an advantage. Making the rules is even better. Making rules that your opponent doesn't know about is best of all." (The last line feels LE to me, like something a devil would say. I think it's fine for a sneaky LN code.)
"The rich and powerful have always made the rules at the expense of the poor. Turnabout is fair play." (This one uses your character's background to justify why he doesn't like following other peoples' rules without rejecting rules entirely.)
You could also combine the last two into: "The rich and powerful have always made the rules at the expense of the poor. It's only fair for you to make the rules to your own advantage whenever possible. If your opponent doesn't know your rules that's their problem."
Tenet 6 - Do not beg for anything in life and work for what you seek. Nothing worth having is easy to obtain.
I find it interesting that your character is big on helping beggars but set on not begging himself. That's not to say that it's a bad trait, but you'll want to think about why your character has this double standard.
Tenet 7 - Never kill someone who does not deserve to die. We are not assassins. Animals and Monsters can be slain if necessary.
Issues of violence come up a lot in PF so if you're going to include it in your code it's best to be as clear as possible. What do you mean by "deserves to die"? Murderers? Anyone who attacks you first? Anyone who strikes a beggar or orphan? For that matter, what's a "monster"? Do goblins count (thus making you A-OK with killing goblin noncombatants)? How do you feel about intelligent nonhumanoids?
Tenet 2 - Never give anything less than what you have to give. Always reach for 100% of your potential.
Tenet 3 - Do not prey upon the peasants and beggars and never take from those who cannot afford it.
Tenet 4 - Loyalty is the greatest virtue. Always aid those who are loyal to you and never betray a friend.
Tenet 5 - Always help those weaker than you, and give to those in need. Never ask for rewards but never reject them either.
...
Tenet 8 - Use your Charm and Cunning to your advantage. Brute force should not be used as your first option.
Tenet 9 - Always smile and have high spirits. Lady luck smiles upon those who are bold and adventurous.
Rule 10 - Do not leave the job unfinished and complete what you were paid for. If you cannot complete the job then return the money.
Looks good!
I think the real reason is that their forum software is garbage but it would be too much of a pain in the ass to fix it2 hours, 59 minutes ago
Well that sucks... Can someone explain why they have a time limit on edit?
Probably so people don't go back and retcon their coversations in order to make themselves look better.
Still happens I am sure, but the pace of a forum usually makes it impractical in the span of an hour.
Well, that could certainly be Paizo's reason for not changing that. But I still like to think the forum drama is likely the reason why the programmer put it there. And I can jokingly say that grandfathering other people's design decisions is a core tenant of Pathfinder