Spell-like abilities inconsistency

[Wolin]

For whatever reason, I can't find any errata for this, so I thought I'd see if anyone can find me something official. I've checked the errata relevant for my copy of the core rulebook, but there doesn't seem to be a fix.

Core Rulebook, Page 221 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting power.

Core Rulebook, Page 554 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal.

So, one page says you can counterspell them and use them to counterspell, while the other says you can't. Which is correct?

[B.O.B.Johnson]

Have you checked the Bestiary 1? It has a very in-depth segment on Spell-Like:

Bestiary 1, Page 304 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability is based on would be subject to spell resistance.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A constant spell-like ability or one that can be used at will has no use limit; unless otherwise stated, a creature can only use a constant spell-like ability on itself. Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of
opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Format: At will—burning hands (DC 13); Location: Spell-Like Abilities.

[PokeyCA]

You should also check the errata and/or the PRD, as they have updated the section on pg. 554.

[Gisher]

This has apparently been a problem since at least 2010. Are you looking at a physical copy of the CRB or a pdf?

Edit: Apparently it has been a problem since at least 2009.

[Wolin]

The errata relevant for my printing (2nd) doesn't fix it, but since the bestiary says they can't do the counterspell thing, that's probably the interpretation to take.

In fact, it's not fixed even in the prd. The page 554 version and the page 221 version.

EDIT: I've got a pdf

[_Ozy_]

Quote:

It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell.

Given that the save DC for a spell like ability includes the CHA modifier, should we assume that the concentration check for defensive casting, or avoiding the disruption if you're damaged while trying to use your SLA also uses the CHA modifier?

[B.O.B.Johnson]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Quote:

It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell.

Given that the save DC for a spell like ability includes the CHA modifier, should we assume that the concentration check for defensive casting, or avoiding the disruption if you're damaged while trying to use your SLA also uses the CHA modifier?

Under monster creation:

Creatures that rely on spells and spell-like abilities in combat should have one mental ability score that stands out (usually Charisma).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html

^ I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but does that answer it?

[Numarak]

One possible interpretation is that, as on the second quoted paragraph is talking about Dispel Magic -among other subjects-, spell-like abilities can be targeted by Dispel Magic as normal spells do, so they are subject to being counterspelled via Dispel Magic, although not through other means.

Anyhow, I agree that if not errated, it looks inconsistent and confusing.

EDIT: I can't find the place where it says that you can use Spell-like Abilities to counterspell though.

[_Ozy_]

B.O.B.Johnson wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

Quote:

It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell.

Given that the save DC for a spell like ability includes the CHA modifier, should we assume that the concentration check for defensive casting, or avoiding the disruption if you're damaged while trying to use your SLA also uses the CHA modifier?

Under monster creation:

Creatures that rely on spells and spell-like abilities in combat should have one mental ability score that stands out (usually Charisma).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html

^ I'm not 100% sure I understand your question, but does that answer it?

Well, looking at what was quoted:

Quote:

The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

it seems that CHA is called out specifically for SLAs. Just curious if this carried through for concentration checks for SLAs. Also, monsters with class levels, such as wizard, might have a high INT, but I don't think that would automatically be used for SLAs.

[skizzerz]

Your second quote doesn't say they can be used to counterspell, it just says they can be dispelled (which is correct) and counterspelled (which contradicts what everything else says about SLAs).

Given the Bestiary also says no counterspelling, I'd be inclined to say that is the official/correct stance on it. I've given your post an FAQ click so that this can be put on the errata list though since the CRB really shouldn't be going about contradicting itself.

[Gisher]

Wolin wrote:

The errata relevant for my printing (2nd) doesn't fix it, but since the bestiary says they can't do the counterspell thing, that's probably the interpretation to take.

In fact, it's not fixed even in the prd. The page 554 version and the page 221 version.

EDIT: I've got a pdf

I thought you were using a current edition. I just checked my CRB pdf (6th printing) and it seems that the problem was fixed sometime after your 2nd edition was created.

CRB 6th ed., p. 554 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled, but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

[wraithstrike]

Wolin wrote:

For whatever reason, I can't find any errata for this, so I thought I'd see if anyone can find me something official. I've checked the errata relevant for my copy of the core rulebook, but there doesn't seem to be a fix.

Core Rulebook, Page 221 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting power.

Core Rulebook, Page 554 wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal.

So, one page says you can counterspell them and use them to counterspell, while the other says you can't. Which is correct?

That was errata'd a long time aglo. You can not counterspell them.

[Wolin]

Curious. It's not mentioned in the errata for 2nd to 6th printing. And as mentioned before, it's still there in the prd (with links to show).

Regardless of what happens, it would be nice to have it clarified in the prd if nothing else.

[Psychoalpha]

Wolin wrote:

The errata relevant for my printing (2nd) doesn't fix it, but since the bestiary says they can't do the counterspell thing, that's probably the interpretation to take.

In fact, it's not fixed even in the prd. The page 554 version and the page 221 version.

EDIT: I've got a pdf

I think I'm cnfused, because the links you posted just hours ago both say the same thing.

From your first link:

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

From your second link:

Quote:

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

So... how was this not fixed in the PRD? Am I missing something?

[wraithstrike]

Wolin wrote:

Curious. It's not mentioned in the errata for 2nd to 6th printing. And as mentioned before, it's still there in the prd (with links to show).

Regardless of what happens, it would be nice to have it clarified in the prd if nothing else.

It is fixed in the prd, and if you update your pdf it will be updated there also, assuming you have not already done so.

Basically there is no existing updated and official rules source with the incorrect ruling on this.

Even the links you posted to both say counterspelling is not possible.

[wraithstrike]

Psychoalpha wrote:

Wolin wrote:

The errata relevant for my printing (2nd) doesn't fix it, but since the bestiary says they can't do the counterspell thing, that's probably the interpretation to take.

In fact, it's not fixed even in the prd. The page 554 version and the page 221 version.

EDIT: I've got a pdf

I think I'm cnfused, because the links you posted just hours ago both say the same thing.

From your first link:

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

From your second link:

Quote:

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

So... how was this not fixed in the PRD? Am I missing something?

It is fixed. I am thinking he was reading too fast, and misread it.

[skizzerz]

Just checked my pdf and it's correct there too; probably should've done that before clicking FAQ (and for some reason I also misread the PRD, derp).

Wolin, you should probably re-download your pdf, chances are it's been updated a couple times since the last time you grabbed it.

[Gauss]

Wolin, you have an out-of-date copy of the CRB. Page 554 is different now.

[Wolin]

Ooops, you're right, it is fixed. Looks like I misread it on the prd. My mistake (sorry).

[B.O.B.Johnson]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Well, looking at what was quoted:

Quote:

The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

it seems that CHA is called out specifically for SLAs. Just curious if this carried through for concentration checks for SLAs. Also, monsters with class levels, such as wizard, might have a high INT, but I don't think that would automatically be used for SLAs.

Spell-like abilities function just like spells with a few exceptions (as the rule states). Normal spells have caster stat that determines both the save DC and the concentration modifier. I have never seen a spell caster where their save on the spells used a different stat than their bonus to concentration. Have you?

While I can't find any mention of it in the Bestiaries or the CRB, I think it is implied that if the CHA is used for the spell-like ability's save DC, then it is also used for the concentration check.

Bestiary 2 and newer all include the creature's concentration modifier in header for their spell-like abilities. For example: Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +15)

The creature in example above has: Str 21 (+5), Dex 23 (+6), Con 26 (+8), Int 16 (+3), Wis 21 (+5), and Cha 18 (+4). With those modifiers the only one that matches +15 is Cha = +4 + CL 11 = +15.

Unfortunately the Bestiary 1 (and any custom/templated monster you create) is not going to have the Concentration modifier listed in the statblock.

But again, unless something in the creature's statblock specifically says they use a different stat for casting, then it should be charisma based. Hope that helps.