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I'm wondering what paladin code holds more pull with a paladin. The one listed under the paladin character class:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
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The one listed under their deity of worship (for my character it's Erastil so I'll list that code):
Paladin Code
The paladins of Erastil are gruff, strict traditionalists. They seek to preserve the integrity of rural life and communities. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
My community comes first, and I will contribute to it all that I can. If I don’t give something back, who will?
I must offer the poor in my community assistance, but I may not do the work for them—instead, I must teach them to contribute to the settlement. It is only through cooperation that a community grows strong.
When danger threatens, I am not a fool. I seek first to make sure the weak and innocent are safe, and then I quell the danger.
I keep to the old ways, the true ways. I am not seduced by the lure of money or power. I remember that true honor comes from within, not from the accolades of others.
I remember that reputation is everything. Mine is pure and upstanding, and I will repair it if it is broken or tarnished. I stand by my decisions, and live so that none shall have cause to blame me.
I show respect to my elders, for they have done much. I show respect to the young, for they have much left to do. I show respect to my peers, for they carry the load. And I shall carry it with them.
I am honest, trustworthy, and stable. If I must leave my lands and community, before I go, I ensure that they will be tended in my absence. Even when duty calls, my duties to my home come first—letting them lapse makes me a burden on my people.
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This is not something that is handled by the rules. It is something that should be handled by the player and their GM. Talk to your GM and collaborate on what the two of you think should be done about these multiple codes.
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Would this paladin free an evil creature they find in a dungeon that is in a cage, because I'm thinking they wouldn't do that. Some people might say this is allowed under "Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good." but if you haven't seen the other creature yet then how do you know this creature isn't lying just to get out. I know you might say use Sense Motive, but that is no guarantee that you can sense if someone is lying to you.
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"This is not something that is handled by the rules. It is something that should be handled by the player and their GM. Talk to your GM and collaborate on what the two of you think should be done about these multiple codes."
Shouldn't this be handled by the rules? You have several books on faiths, religions, and codes yet if your gm thinks one way doesn't that just mean those books don't matter? That's why I'm asking on here in hopes of finally getting a set rule for this.
Another example could be a paladin who worships a deity who is totally against slavery. Well this same paladin is a pathfinder and in Absalom. In that city the law allows for slavery. If this paladin were to break slaves free he would be breaking the law in Absalom, but I would think they would get a huge thumbs up from their deity and not lose their paladin powers. As you can see which over-ride which.
Another example is in the paladin code they can't lie yet on many pathfinder missions they have to hide their way finders or say they aren't with the pathfinders, or pretend to be someone they aren't. So just because the pathfinder society says it's ok to lie then it's ok with their code?
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I agree, this paladin would most likely not free an evil creature without exceptional circumstances.
And no, you can never be 100% of anything. Existentially speaking, you can't even be sure that you exist. But it's either use what resources and information is available to you to make a logical and sound decision, or sit in a self-induced coma and do nothing your entire life out of fear of making the wrong decision. Personally, I decide that it is better to act, even if that means I may not make the right decision all of the time and I have to make decisions with incomplete decisions and/or judgement calls. Such is life.
Man that got deep.
The written code gives us good guidelines to base our judgement calls off of. You will never find a list for "What a paladin can and cannot do: the entire guide for every explicit circumstance".
Paladin's are only required to follow laws if the laws are just. If there was a law that said "You must murder one innocent person a day", I'm pretty sure the paladin would take a pass (and likely try to overthrow the government). So no, you don't have to subscribe to slavery just because it's legal.
Yeah, lying is actually a good example. But the question becomes thus; what is the lesser of two evils? Sometimes you are put into impossible situations and you have to make a choice. What if you were in a situation where you could save an orphanage, but in order to do so you had to blow up a church? What's the correct decision? Is it better to save the innocent lives of the churchgoers, or the innocent lives of the children?
There never was, currently is not, and never will be a list for everything that a paladin can/can't/should/shouldn't do, because the list is inconceivably long and it would allow for absolutely zero interpretation. If you have to make a questionable decision as a paladin, consult with the GM and make the most rational decision that you can. It's not black and white, sorry. That's just the way it is.
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Where are you finding a contradiction between the standard code and Erastil's code? I'm pretty sure the general answer is that you must follow both at all times.
EDIT: And re "the lesser of two evils," yes you should take the lesser evil... and then, if it was a significant evil, you should expect to need an atonement spell. No excuses.
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I always thought the specific deity codes were just that - specific codes. The one in the CRB is a general 'default' code. Use one or the other, not both.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
That language doesn't sound like it's just a default. OTOH, Erastil's code says
The paladins of Erastil are gruff, strict traditionalists. They seek to preserve the integrity of rural life and communities. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
(emphasis mine), which is at least compatible with the notion that Erastil's tenets include / are added onto the standard code.
OTOOH, dragonhunterq's way may well be much more playable.
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Where I gave a slightly more ambiguous answer...hmmm!
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Here's another argument: the paladin code of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, nowhere mentions honesty. I'd expect it to be in there somewhere, unless it's already included via the standard code.
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The way I see it a paladin must follow both the standard paladin code in the core rule book, and their deity’s code. But if there is a conflict the deity’s code takes precedence over the standard code.
I am not seeing anything in Erastil’s code that really contradicts the standard paladin’s code. The only minor change seems to be the section on how you help those in need. The standard paladin would have no problem doing the work for the people or even just giving them gold to handle the problem. A paladin of Erastil is instead required to teach the person how to do it for themselves.
Torag on the other hand has a couple of differences that stand out.
• My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
• I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
• I respect the forge, and never sully it with halfhearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
• Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
Paladins or Torag are a lot more ruthless than other especially those of Sarenrae. A paladin of Sarenrae is expected to show mercy to his enemies, but a paladin of Torag tends to be more brutal and is not only allowed to deceive his enemies but actually almost required to.
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Here's another argument: the paladin code of Sarenrae, goddess of honesty, nowhere mentions honesty. I'd expect it to be in there somewhere, unless it's already included via the standard code.
Other than this line.
I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
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It is not explicitly covered, per se. Instead, I'd like to draw an analogy using real-world examples. I'll use one that I imagine many gamers in the US would be familiar with: the idea of Ten Commandments. I am not advocating any particular faith, here, or even faith or not-faith at all. Instead, I am hoping to draw an analogy about how you can take a core concept based around faith, and watch it diverge.
The Ten Commandments: Here are the traditional, "basic 10" found in many faiths. We could consider this "basic 10" as analogous to the paladin code. It's something typically seen as "the definitive list of thou shalt/shalt nots" among a number of belief groups.
...except every faith interprets those items slightly differently. Take these variations, for example:
...there are many more out there, including multiple proposed variations of a Methodist Catechism, and I am sure more for Baptist. We could venture further with the analogy, by going into things like Quakers, the Amish, and so on.
For purposes of our analogy, the different temples such as Erastil, are analogous to these groups. Their paladins take a "core code" and then it gets reinterpreted by their individual temple.
So:
Paladin Core Doctrine : Various Deity Codes :: Ten Commandments : The millions of Catecisms and faith doctrines in the RL based around the TC
I would presume that a paladin would understand their Core Doctrine based on how it was taught to them--so perhaps, the Deity Code for that deity's paladins would triumph.
I realize this analogy may make some uncomfortable, and I welcome a different variation of it for that reason. It's just something that pooped into mind and I haven't thought of anything better.
If i had to say one , then it would be the original.
The original paladin code is direct , the others are more ... open ended and generical , they dont directly tell you what you cant do at all.
Personally i never get paladin players because i warn them im really , REALLY strict with the code , so you better not step 1 foot out of it even ONCE or you will be losing powers and asking forgiveness. Ofc i know quite well others GMs show more leniency and sometimes just dont care at all about it.
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Like every other issue with a Paladin's Code, it all comes down to whether a GM doesn't care, or whether they work with a player on how they want to define their Paladin, or whether they have that peculiar burning itch that only a little sweet, satisfying Smite Paladin will soothe.
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If i had to say one , then it would be the original.
The original paladin code is direct , the others are more ... open ended and generical , they dont directly tell you what you cant do at all.
Personally i never get paladin players because i warn them im really , REALLY strict with the code , so you better not step 1 foot out of it even ONCE or you will be losing powers and asking forgiveness. Ofc i know quite well others GMs show more leniency and sometimes just dont care at all about it.
Yeah, I would never play one under that.
It sounds like you're saying: just don't play a paladin in my game.
No offense meant: it's just what it comes across as. To me, it'd be the same as: "This is the one, true interpretation of the Ten Commandments." That's somewhat akin to, in the analogy above, saying: "Everyone uses the Southern Baptist version of the Ten Commands. It is the one true way." ...when you were wanting to play a Catholic's interpretation of the TC.
...which historically, one interpretation of even a "list of 10 simple do/do nots" did not work out. There are something akin to 40,000 varying Christian church organisations worldwide, likely all of whom claim the TC as core in their faith. Again, I am drawing an analogy.
What I could wish Paizo could do is say: yeah, there will be regional/faith-based interpretations.
Or perhaps they already have, with deity-specific paladin codes. I suppose part of that touches back on what the OP was bringing forward.
Actually it isnt so much about interpretation as it is about making sure whatever was decided is followed without exceptions.
To be fair i wont discuss the original code , since dont lie means dont lie , but being a honest person like the erastil code doesnt mean you wont ever lie , just that you dont it often for no reason to me for example , but i could see a player making a point for another vision if wanted.
Usually my players just dont want the GM keeping a watchful eye over their actions at all times , even if it was something they decided on the first session themselves.
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Playing a Paladin definitely involves having your actions watched.
However - and I'm not accusing anyone of this, just saying - it's always seemed to me that reading "a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" as being equal to "any lie is an immediate fall no matter what!!!" is an absurdly simple-minded and pedantic way to go about it.
A Paladin is supposed to be true to their god, their principles and the spirit of their code. A GM reading the code like a lawyer hovering over a deposition, instead of like a combination of a storyteller and a roleplaying representative of the Paladin's deity, is just sad.
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To the OP, re another thread you started: if Erastil's code is a substitute for the standard code, IMHO using it constitutes a mechanical benefit (because it changes what can make you fall) so you don't get to do so if you're really worshiping an elemental lord with Erastil on the side. I suspect you already decided to go with Erastil whole-heartedly, but just in case.
To the OP, re another thread you started: if Erastil's code is a substitute for the standard code, IMHO using it constitutes a mechanical benefit (because it changes what can make you fall) so you don't get to do so if you're really worshiping an elemental lord with Erastil on the side. I suspect you already decided to go with Erastil whole-heartedly, but just in case.OTOH perhaps it implies that you were interpreting the original Paladins code more strictly than intended.
Could you clarify this? I'm unclear what the antecedent of "it" is. Also, since I haven't offered any interpretation of the standard code (nor do I intend to), I don't see how anything could possibly imply that.
Ah! No, it doesn't have to be easier in general, it just has to be easier on occasion, which will be true of any alternate code. The codes might be perfectly balanced against each other overall. Some characters will still cope better with one or another, just as they do with traits, feats, etc.
BTW here is the previous discussion in question.
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Here are the options.
1) Use the Core code.
2) Use the Faiths of Purity Codes.
3) Use both Codes.
All three are equally and officially correct. There really is no 'right' answer here. The core rulebook listed that Code Two YEARS before the faiths of purity book came out.
The individual codes are fun little flavor things that should not actually CONTRADICT the core code so they should be able to go together.. but under no circumstances should the game REQUIRE you to buy books outside the core. Anything after that are 'options'.
Super aweseome fun options... but options just the same.
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There is a helpful guide to Paladin alignment and a workable Paladin code that's compatible with most gods available in this book which should provide a workable solution for Player and GM.
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I vote for the faith based code in that outside of the pedantic world of rules lawyering it makes the most sense. It seems ridiculous to me that a paladin of Torag could act directly against her deity in favour of the default code particularly when you question where on Galorion she would learn this code? It's not like paladins all go to paladin school where they study a standardised curriculum before then specialising in a specific deity.
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The deity codes are an addition not a replacement, but they are also optional rules. As a GM I would let the player decide if he wanted to use them or not.
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I'm pretty sure Torag's can come close to contradicting the core code.
I'm settling on my original opinion on reflection. Both codes together, but any conflict should resolve in favour of the specific deity code.
CRB is the foundation, deity codes are the details that matter.
The deity codes are an addition not a replacement, but they are also optional rules. As a GM I would let the player decide if he wanted to use them or not.
Being a paladin of a specific deity does get you some mechanical benefits, if only a few spells added to your spells list. Arguably following the deity's code is the (mandatory) price for that (the price for standard paladin abilities being the standard code).
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The only Paladin I currently play is a worshiper of Abadar, so I never noticed that the other codes aren't as clear as his. Which is appropriate, considering Abadar's tenets.
Of all the neutral gods, only Abadar supports and promotes a holy order of paladins. As the god of civilization and order, Abadar recognizes the value of holy warriors in advancing society’s aims. His paladins follow the standard paladin code of protecting the innocent, acting with honor and honesty, and respecting lawful authority. In addition, an Abadaran paladin upholds the following creed.
- I am a protector of the roadways and keep travelers from harm. No matter their destinations or goals, if they are peaceable and legitimate travelers who harm no others on the road, I will ensure that they pass safely.
- Bandits are a plague. Under my will they come to justice. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword.
- Corruption in the courts is the greatest corruption of civilization. Without confidence in justice, citizens cannot believe in their countries, and civilization begins to disappear. I will root out corruption wherever I find it, and if a system is fundamentally flawed, I will work to aid citizens by reforming or replacing it.
- I am an aid to the markets. I ensure equitable trade between merchants and citizens. Theft and deceit on either side are intolerable.
- I make opportunities, and teach others to recognize them. When I aid others, I open the way for them, but will not carry them—they must take responsibility.
Of particular note to another recent thread, there is no mention of associating with evil in it.
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The Paladin's Code can easily contradict itself, and things like Oath of Vengeance can also lead to contradictions incredibly easily. The Code is meant to be a thematic aspect of a character class that enriches the roleplaying aspect, not something for goonish GMs to beat a player down with, or for people to agonize over as if they were supposed to be reading it like straight rules text. For god's sake (not sure if the pun is intended), take it with a grain of salt.
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" Being a paladin of a specific deity does get you some mechanical benefits, if only a few spells added to your spells list. Arguably following the deity's code is the (mandatory) price for that (the price for standard paladin abilities being the standard code)."
I'm pretty sure if you lose you're paladin spells because you're Deity took them from you that you can have the rest of your paladin powers stripped by your Deity too. I think all of a paladin's powers come from their deity doesn't it? I mean you get them for being faithful to the immortal your character worships and follows.
In fact you have to get an atonement in order to even try to get them back if you've lost them to begin with.
A Deities Code itself is considered to be a variant code of conduct. I prefer the deities code of conduct over the standard paladin's code myself. It made it very easy to run wrath of the righteous, slumbering tsar, and rappan athuk as they are like heaven for paladin's. The only module that was a pain to dm paladins was in Jade Regent because the part of legitimate authority. Technically a paladin cannot attack the Jade Regent right off the bat until one of his allies was attacked. The only thing he could do was do a standard action to request that the Jade Regent surrender. These are player's that I have nurtured in Ravenloft as that is the best campaign setting to teach alignments to.
The only Paladin I currently play is a worshiper of Abadar, so I never noticed that the other codes aren't as clear as his. Which is appropriate, considering Abadar's tenets.
Of particular note to another recent thread, there is no mention of associating with evil in it.Of all the neutral gods, only Abadar supports and promotes a holy order of paladins. As the god of civilization and order, Abadar recognizes the value of holy warriors in advancing society’s aims. His paladins follow the standard paladin code of protecting the innocent, acting with honor and honesty, and respecting lawful authority. In addition, an Abadaran paladin upholds the following creed.
- I am a protector of the roadways and keep travelers from harm. No matter their destinations or goals, if they are peaceable and legitimate travelers who harm no others on the road, I will ensure that they pass safely.
- Bandits are a plague. Under my will they come to justice. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword.
- Corruption in the courts is the greatest corruption of civilization. Without confidence in justice, citizens cannot believe in their countries, and civilization begins to disappear. I will root out corruption wherever I find it, and if a system is fundamentally flawed, I will work to aid citizens by reforming or replacing it.
- I am an aid to the markets. I ensure equitable trade between merchants and citizens. Theft and deceit on either side are intolerable.
- I make opportunities, and teach others to recognize them. When I aid others, I open the way for them, but will not carry them—they must take responsibility.
Here it is: •I am a protector of the roadways and keep travelers from harm. No matter their destinations or goals, if they are peaceable and legitimate travelers who harm no others on the road, I will ensure that they pass safely.
So as long as the evil does no harm others on the road, you can associate with them and let them pass safely.
Unlike normal Paladin code which talks about innocence.
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I agree, this paladin would most likely not free an evil creature without exceptional circumstances.
Paladin is lawful and good, so if the evil creature is trapped intentionally, the lawful nature of the paladin will likely conclude it is there for a reason and only free it under orders from above (above being the law, their organization or deific instruction).
An intentional trapped creature would be a cage, a sealing spell, a prison, and so on.
Now, if the evil creature is trapped in an unintentional manner, the Good end of the paladin may perceive that charity is in order and may make attempts to free the creature.
For example, a helpless Worg (NE magical beast) that is caught in a long forgotten bear trap, the good nature of the paladin may consider charity for the trapped magical creature.
Mind you, if the consequences of freeing the evil creature are obviously problematic (like a nearby town of helpless villagers), the paladin may reconsider such charity. In general, I think if freeing the evil creature has no obvious consequences and is otherwise a good deed, the paladin would do it.
Mind you, this is more directed at what a lawful good character would do, and less at paladins specifically. Though, I think the above still applies to paladins, especially paladins that aren't looking to shift alignments away from good or lawful.
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- A Paladin may not harm and innocent, nor through inaction allow an innocent to come to harm.
- A Paladin must pursue and destroy evil, except where such activity would violate the first law.
- A Paladin mus preserve his own life and the lives of his comrades in arms, except where such action would violate the first or second laws.
- A Paladin may not harm and innocent, nor through inaction allow an innocent to come to harm.
- A Paladin must pursue and destroy evil, except where such activity would violate the first law.
- A Paladin mus preserve his own life and the lives of his comrades in arms, except where such action would violate the first or second laws.
Mr Asimov would like a word with you ...
Honestly, I think the 'variant' codes make sense. As mentioned, Torag's, Abadar's, and Iomedae's paladins are going to grow up with vastly different traditions, roles, and feelings about things.
As far as freeing an evil creature that's trapped ... more fun comes in as to why a creature was trapped. If it's been, say, kidnapped and tortured for the lulz (hey, evil doesn't play nice with anyone, including evil!), I can imagine showing mercy. (Especially from Sarenrae or Abadar; the former, redemption, the latter, order.)