Hello! So... yeah I've spent the entire day trying to design this character.
The plan was to make a TWF Rogue, but then I saw how a fighter would get more combat oriented abilities while still getting to deal more damage with the same stuff. I didn't want to depend on sneak attack since there is plenty of stuff that cant be hit by it, but! There is some stuff that's worth getting sneak attack for.
All in all this is the result:
Race: Human
Alternate Racial Trait: Focused Study
Class: Fighter (4-12/19-20), Unchained Rogue (1-3/13-18)
Archetype: Dervish of Dawn, Knife Master, Scout
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Feats:
1.TWF
1.H.Focused Study (Acrobatics)
1.F1.Weapon Focus (Kukri)
I still need to make sure that Dervish of Dawn's Rapid Attack works as i think it works though, as far as i can see I can make a full attack forgoing the highest bab attack on a single move, at any point of said move, so I do believe im not using the standard action there, pretty nice for charging if its possible to do it then. Even if i cant, then if its only the move action, then i still can do the standard action,
Knife Master gives me an unneeded but situationally useful sleight of hand check bonus, and a little nice boost on sneak attack damage.
Scout gets me 100% sneak attack (except on precision damage immune targets) on a charge or on moving 10', so it synergyzes REALLY well with the Dervish of Dawn archetype.
The first level (fighter) gets me the proficiency I need to wield kukris and a bonus feat, everyone love bonus feats.
The next 3 on unchained rogue help me get weapon finesse and dex mod on attack rolls, aswell as sneak attack modification that could save your life.
From level 5 to level 13 we will enjoy the fighter's featfest and grab the core feats that will make our character.
At 12th level, the Focused Weapon advanced training upgrades the damage of the puny little kukris from 1d4 to 1d8, and at 13 this goes up to 1d10! Not so puny little kukris now.
From level 14th onwards we'll be grabbing some cool rogue talents while waiting for the amazing +6d6 on sneak attacks (Accomplished Sneak Attacker helps us a bit there). You might think that missing +3 BAB and the Dervish of Dawn ability Lightning Strike (basically Rapid Shot for melee) is not worth the sneak attack nor the talents, but wait...
At level 19th, the very last feat slot goes to Sneaking Precision letting us apply Blinding Critical on the frist sneak attack and ensure future sneak attacks in the same turn and, most importantly Bleeding Critical on every sneak attack, and guess what? Unlike other bleeding effects this one stacks with itself!
As an example of a level 20 ideal full attack, landing all 7 attacks and sneak attacks (imagine the target is blinded, flanked or something):
7 hits for 1d10 (15-20/x2) + 6d6 sneak attack + Dex mod + 2d6 from Bleeding Critical applied on the sneak attacks.
Think that landing 2 of these full attacks, by the third turn the target suffers a whooping 28d6 only from bleeding! If you also make a critical hit while doing all that (which is highly possible) you get another +2d6 from bleeding that comes from said critical hit!
BTW, dont forget the Slow Reactions sneak attack modification (targets hit by sneak attack cannot make AoOs)
And 4 levels into Unchained Rogue gets us Debilitating Injury: every time we deal sneak attack damage we can reduce -2 AC on the target (-4 AC from our attacks), -2 on attack rolls (-4 to us) or, halve the targets movement speed AND disable its 5' step. And you can do the 3 of them in a full attack, just need to land 3 sneak attacks and that's all.
Drawbacks (AKA DM's Section):
As many other martial characters, this guy has low will saves, sort of fixed with Indomitable Faith and Iron will but low nonetheless.
The capstone stuff is both hit dependant and sneak attack dependant. So monsters with immunity to precision damage and/or high AC will render this character useless.
Also, as you may have noticed this guy has no obvious defenses against combat maneuvers. It's main selling point in this regard is high acrobatic skill but still... it wont do much against huge aberrations with multiple limbs, an stampede or well, just use your imagination.
And obviously as with all melee characters, ranged attacks are a problem that cant really be solved without aid from magic items, a party mate or specific feats.
In short: Just deal with it as you deal with any rogue or fighter.
Thank you for taking your time reading this, you are very welcome to give any criticism or suggestions!
Knife master archetype is not only useful; it's one of the best rogue archetypes out there. It's an extra average 1 damage per sneak attack die, so it really starts coming into play at higher levels.
Zaetar wrote:
The plan was to make a TWF Rogue, but then I saw how a fighter would get more combat oriented abilities while still getting to deal more damage with the same stuff. I didn't want to depend on sneak attack since there is plenty of stuff that cant be hit by it, but! There is some stuff that's worth getting sneak attack for.
I always hate it when people compare their combat effectiveness to a fighter. Fighters are one-trick ponies, they fight. If they're not better at that then you, then they're doing something wrong. So no, you will not be as effective as the fighter in combat, and yes you will be reliant upon sneak attack. But you also have at least x4 their skill points and a number of other rogue-only abilities.
Zaetar wrote:
As many other martial characters, this guy has low will saves, sort of fixed with Indomitable Faith and Iron will but low nonetheless.
Some rogue talents can help with that.
Zaetar wrote:
The capstone stuff is both hit dependant and sneak attack dependant. So monsters with immunity to precision damage and/or high AC will render this character useless.
Yup.
Zaetar wrote:
Also, as you may have noticed this guy has no obvious defenses against combat maneuvers. It's main selling point in this regard is high acrobatic skill but still... it wont do much against huge aberrations with multiple limbs, an stampede or well, just use your imagination.
Use the offensive defensive rogue talent. AC bonuses apply to CMD.
Zaetar wrote:
And obviously as with all melee characters, ranged attacks are a problem that cant really be solved without aid from magic items, a party mate or specific feats.
Greater TWF is a Trap...Too hard to hit. But Two weapon Rend is a great feat to replace it with.
Requires Double Slice and both are made for Str-based builds.
I'm not sure i understand how two weapon rend works... the description implies that i need to hit with both weapons simultaneously, and I dont do that. If we say that I just need to hit with main and off hand weapons in the same round then yeah, it gives me an extra 1d10. Which would be same as actually landing one more hit.
Greater TWF is a Trap...Too hard to hit. But Two weapon Rend is a great feat to replace it with.
Requires Double Slice and both are made for Str-based builds.
I'm not sure I understand how two weapon rend works... the description implies that i need to hit with both weapons simultaneously, and I dont do that. If we say that I just need to hit with main and off hand weapons in the same round then yeah, it gives me an extra 1d10. Which would be same as actually landing one more hit.
My advice is do the Unrogue 3 then go Slayer. Grab up Two weapon rend with your Ranger Combat Style and avoid the Pre-req. Grab the right style you could effectily get (Two weapon feint, Improved TW Feint and Two weapon rend). After that you could snag up Opportunist via the feat Extra slayer talent. After 10 Levels of Slayer you could creep back into Unrogue if you like for debilitating strike if it is that important to you...OR you could snag up vivisectionist Alchemist and boost your self up with Mutagens, Extracts, and the ability to brew potions. It would also continue the Sneak attack damage.
How 2wR works is you hit with your MH and your OH in your attack sequence then you get to do the Rend 1 time/round. It hits more consistently than GTWF ever could. The difference is Highest BaB verse -10.
Try "Deific Obedience" with Pharasma. With a simple ritual each day you give +2 to hit with Daggers
So basically with Weapon focus daggers and Deific Obedience at lvl 3 you have +5 ( as a rogue lv 3 ) to hit and with a Masterwork dagger you have +6, and whatever you have with weapon finesse. You could easily top +10 to hit just at lvl 3.
I'd recommend you just go all-in with the rogue. Yes, you're sneak attack dependent but if you're in a party with another melee-based character, that's not that bad because you can work together to setup flanks. Also, remember that there aren't that many things immune to sneak attack damage in Pathfinder - only elementals, oozes, and incorporeal creatures (if you don't have ghost-touch). It works on constructs and undead.
Also, you may want to at least consider playing a goblin. The small size gives you a bonus to hit, a bonus to AC, and your increased dex will give you a bonus to damage. Plus, goblins are fun.
I'd recommend you just go all-in with the rogue. Yes, you're sneak attack dependent but if you're in a party with another melee-based character, that's not that bad because you can work together to setup flanks. Also, remember that there aren't that many things immune to sneak attack damage in Pathfinder - only elementals, oozes, and incorporeal creatures (if you don't have ghost-touch). It works on constructs and undead.
Also, you may want to at least consider playing a goblin. The small size gives you a bonus to hit, a bonus to AC, and your increased dex will give you a bonus to damage. Plus, goblins are fun.
Then you get targeted by a Will save or a Fort save and you spend most the time picking yourself up off the ground or blowing gold on resurrections.
I love how people will say: "You will have a flank buddy" but realistically there will be times (several in fact) that one of the two of you is CCed, Debilitated, or plain shut down and have to stand solo. Pure rogues tend to have the problem of not standing up very well when shit hits the fan and your needed to be a Martial not a sneaky flank relying wanna be martial. A reason I pitched up the Idea of Slayer for more surviviblity and the ability to Feint the Flat Footed condition so you can slip in that SA damage. Another Option is to Add Scout Archetype with Knife master to get more ways to deliver SA without a partner.
100% agree that G2WF is a trap, and 2WpnRend is a more broadly useful substitute.
Although note that 2WpnRend is additional damage, not a distinct attack, so it isn't going to apply it's own Sneak Attack.
(but G2WF at -10, actually -12, to hit is so marginal 2WpnRend is still a better idea)
Getting 2WF stuff thru Ranger style is ideal (allowing a STR build, get Feats in different order i.e. 2WpnRend before I2WF),
and either Slayer or Ranger is a good way to go there... Ranger spells are great, but Skirmisher tricks also rock.
(quite a few tricks allow either extra attacks or free movement, which sounds within your character goals)
But I see you're set on trying to get mobile full attacks thru Fighter Archetypes...
You seemed to notice, but IMHO the Charge ability of Dervish doesn't really interact with their Rapid Attack ability,
Charge is not a Move Action, and in fact Rapid Attack is identical to Mobile Fighter ability who don't have any Charge ability.
Honestly, I am not that big a fan of Knife Master, IMHO Thug is much stronger,
KM's damage boost just isn't that high,
and Thug offers great de-buff options that will lead to more damage vs. enemey/ less damage vs. you/ take enemies out of fight...
Fighter/Rogue is a great combo for both theme and use. Weapon Master Fighter works nicely since it gets you faster Weapon Training with your chosen weapon. Weapon Training naturally means Gloves of Dueling, which is a colossal aid to offense; so just 3 levels of Weapon Master ends up being worth a big combat bonus. Accomplished Sneak Attacker can make up for lost Sneak Attack levels.
How are you taking Greater Weapon Focus as a level 4 Fighter?
The initial idea was to make a twf character, found out few builds related to rogues, found a good one based on knife master and scout. Then wondered how good would a twf fighter-based would be since everything i was looking at was efficiency in combat and well, fighters do fight better than most other classes so it was obvious... but i still wanted that rogue touch on it and wanted to keep it.
Then I started mixing levels and archetypes till i found balance in the build i posted. The first half dedicated to TWF, the second part dedicated to sneak attack effects and more importantly the bleeding critical.
I really could take that GTWF from the feat list and there would be a slot for something more useful, but still im not sure about the TWRend. It makes me take a feat that would be utterly useless on this obvious dex build and the rend itself is just a 1d10 per round IF i hit to start with. So if i cant even do what im supposed to do, i wont be able to do what you guys suggest.
The TWF -2 penalization is compensated by the 2 focus feats.
At level 20 my attacks would be: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 and i'm not counting the ability mods nor magic nor weapon enhancement.
I mean... if I am able to land the normal hits, then i will be able to land the twf hits. Same if im not able to do so.
I did think about taking more levels into fighter for the feats, or taking more levels into UnRogue for the sneak/talents, but it would change drastically half of the build itself if i do. If i go more rogue I'll be deadlier with the sneak attack, but my kukris will be puny little iron bars and i'll be feat starved. If i go more fighter then i'll get more feats than what I need and won't get many more interesting abilities. This is just the point in the middle where i'm sort of good at both things... a rogue would just get few more talents and some more sneak attack, a fighter would get more feats.
@Fruian Thistlefoot
If i do what you say, i'd be changing 60% of the build i made. I said suggestions, not complete reformings. Also, i need the 3 unrogue levels for the dex mod on damage rolls.
@Dracoknight
Does it work on kukris? Because I dont really want to let go of the 15-20 crit.
@Quandary
I get what you say, this is not the only character I made, it's just one i've been dilemmaing myself with for an entire day trying to find perfect balance. The objective is simple: deal damage. Let the barbarian do the sunderings, and the debuffs to the wizard. Plus this build already reduces attack rolls, AC, movement speed, disables 5' step and uses Blind. Any more than that and it would go to the "debuffers" category than to "stupid damage dealers".
@BadBird
I was trying to find an archetype that wouldnt replace weapon training so that i could take the advanced weapon training Focused Weapon.
And my bad, had to remake the feat list a little in the last moment due to some incongruencies and forgot to change that. Just swap it with Accomplished Sneak Attacker... for some reason i cant edit my post? oh well nvm.
Swap Gweapon Focus for Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Weapon Master can actually get advanced weapon training stuff from the advanced weapon training feat, if I remember right. Note that Focused Weapon is based on Fighter level, so it won't have a big effect on a multiclass character.
I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned it yet, but bleed damage doesn't work the way you seem to assume it does. Bleed isn't a damage rider on attacks like say, an elemental damage ability. Bleed deals damage to an opponent at the start of their turn, and bleed doesn't stack if it deals the same kind of damage(hit point damage/ability damage). So if you're doing 2d6 bleed, that means that the opponent will take 2d6 damage at the start of it's turn, that's it. In order to deal the 28d6 bleed damage you expected in 2 rounds (possibly), it would actually take 14 rounds of combat.
I like Slayer for TWF builds. You can use your Slayer talents to pick up the Ranger weapon style feats to circumvent the TWF feat chain pre-requisites which allows you to focus on Str instead of Dex. Better BAB, better HD, studied target is pretty sweet and you still get a decent number of skills on a decent skill list. Slayer is the intended meld of rogue and fighter, and you do get the best of both worlds for the most part.
That said, I do admit that I've not tried out any URogue builds for TWF so that route might be more attractive given the new class features from Unchained.
The special rules for Weapon Master are in the entry for the Advanced Weapon Training feat (now that I bothered to look it up). A Weapon Master can actually take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat three times with four levels: once as normal, once with the level 4 bonus feat, and once by changing a previous bonus feat.
I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned it yet, but bleed damage doesn't work the way you seem to assume it does. Bleed isn't a damage rider on attacks like say, an elemental damage ability. Bleed deals damage to an opponent at the start of their turn, and bleed doesn't stack if it deals the same kind of damage(hit point damage/ability damage). So if you're doing 2d6 bleed, that means that the opponent will take 2d6 damage at the start of it's turn, that's it. In order to deal the 28d6 bleed damage you expected in 2 rounds (possibly), it would actually take 14 rounds of combat.
Bleeding Critical works differently, it does stack with itself.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon, your opponent takes 2d6 points of bleed damage each round on his turn, in addition to the damage dealt by the critical hit. Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing. The effects of this feat stack.
With sneaking precision I can apply it on every sneak attack, if i crit it comes from the crit aswell. So, its a bleedingfest.
Sneaking Precision
Benefit: Whenever you successfully sneak attack an opponent for a second time on your turn, you can spend a swift action to apply the effects of one critical feat you know to that opponent.
Oh Snap! Swift action... well, I dont really think I should worry about it anyway with 15-20 threat range. Realistically, I'll probably will be landing like... 3-5 hits, if two of them are sneak attacks then there is a +2d6 bleed in already.
born_of_fire wrote:
I like Slayer for TWF builds. You can use your Slayer talents to pick up the Ranger weapon style feats to circumvent the TWF feat chain pre-requisites which allows you to focus on Str instead of Dex. Better BAB, better HD, studied target is pretty sweet and you still get a decent number of skills on a decent skill list. Slayer is the intended meld of rogue and fighter, and you do get the best of both worlds for the most part.
That said, I do admit that I've not tried out any URogue builds for TWF so that route might be more attractive given the new class features from Unchained.
I only got UnRogue due to the free weapon finesse and for being the quickest (and one of the few) way to get DEX mod for attack rolls instead of STR. Other than that the only reason I'm getting 9 levels into UnRogue is for the requirements of Sneaking Precision (+6d6 sneak attack)
But okay, you won. I'll see If I can manage to do something with it... bear in mind that i did know about slayer, but slayer doesnt have Dervish of Dawn, Knife Master and Scout for archetypes. And if we follow your train of thought then it will be just a twf ranger with rogue tricks instead of spells and feats instead of animal companion.
BadBird wrote:
Weapon Master can actually get advanced weapon training stuff from the advanced weapon training feat, if I remember right. Note that Focused Weapon is based on Fighter level, so it won't have a big effect on a multiclass character.
The special rules for Weapon Master are in the entry for the Advanced Weapon Training feat (now that I bothered to look it up). A Weapon Master can actually take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat three times with four levels: once as normal, once with the level 4 bonus feat, and once by changing a previous bonus feat.
Weapon Master Replaces Weapon Training, so I can't "take an advance weapon trainign in place of a weapon training" because i dont have one. Otherwise it would be like saying "I take an advanced weapon training instead of gaining Mirror Move". Doesn't say you can anywhere or it should say "This ability otherwise works like Weapon Training".
Other than that my only explanation to the Mirror Move entry refers to the amount of weapon trainings you should already have (1 at 5, 2 at 9 and so on). Many archetypes replace them by letting you get the same bonus, but restricted to the weapon of the archetype so it's kinda obvious and it also shows in the chart. Guess the wording in Weapon Master is not the best one in the world.
Sorry my bad, you do get a restricted Weapon Training like other archetypes. But since you still replaced the others you can't "replace" them again for an advanced one.
And yes I do know that about Focused Weapon, that's why the last calculation said 1d10 and not 2d8. 1d10 is what a level 11 warpriest gets for sacred weapon damage.
Why stop at level 9 rogue, when you get master tricks at 10?
Because 11 levels into dervish of dawn fighter can get me a pseudo pounce and +2 BAB.
10 levels into UnRogue would get me 1 advanced talent and another skill on rogue's edge (let's face it, this is flavour). And the most useful talents are:
A feat (got plenty already).
Str dmg on sneak attack which I dont really need.
Halving speed which I already do with debilitating injury.
Manually designating targets for sneak attack, which i dont need since i already get free SAs when moving 10' or charging.
And tricks from a rogue sub-class made mostly from rogue talents and flashy stuff I dont really need.
If you just want easy dex-to-damage on a TWF character, dual rapiers with Fencing Grace can work well. Effortless Lace can bring down the TWF penalty, or Martial Versatility can let you use Fencing Grace with a light Weapon while Advanced Weapon Training grabs Weapon feats for rapier plus your other light blade. Really, even just accepting a -2 to get easy dex-to-damage is often worth it.
Also, be wary of choices and features that pay off at very high levels - at best they work at the very end of a campaign, at worst the campaign doesn't reach that level.
Slayer is a solid class, but you can certainly do something like a dual rapier dervish Fighter that will nab you the level 11 mobility at level 11. The Dervish Swashbuckler has a similar ability that kicks in at level 7.
Edit: Apologies if you noted this already, but you don't need the later Weapon Training to get Advanced Weapon Training - you can grab it as a bonus Fighter Feat at level 4 with a Weapon Master.
Why stop at level 9 rogue, when you get master tricks at 10?
Because 11 levels into dervish of dawn fighter can get me a pseudo pounce and +2 BAB.
10 levels into UnRogue would get me 1 advanced talent and another skill on rogue's edge (let's face it, this is flavour). And the most useful talents are:
A feat (got plenty already).
Str dmg on sneak attack which I dont really need.
Halving speed which I already do with debilitating injury.
Manually designating targets for sneak attack, which i dont need since i already get free SAs when moving 10' or charging.
And tricks from a rogue sub-class made mostly from rogue talents and flashy stuff I dont really need.
Following up what Bigbird said, if the level 11 ability of fighter is what you are looking for in this build, then why not move up the two fighter levels to 13 and 14. Otherwise, you don't get that ability until level 20, when most APs are done.
Unnamed Hero
Human fighter 4/ranger 16
Medium humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +1; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 200 (20d10+76)
Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +9 (+1 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities improved evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee kukri +19/+14/+9/+4 (1d4+20/15-20), kukri +19/+14 (1d4+14/15-20)
Special Attacks combat style (two-weapon combat), quarry
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 13th; concentration +14)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 23, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +20; CMD 38
Feats Bleeding Critical, Blinding Critical, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved Critical (kukri), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical, Toughness, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (kukri), Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 1, camouflage, hero points, swift tracker, track +8, wild empathy +15, woodland stride
Other Gear kukri, kukri, 134 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Blinding Critical (DC 30) Critical hit blinds or dazzles target.
Camouflage (Ex) Can use the Stealth skill in favored terrain, even without cover/concealment.
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quarry (Ex) +2 to hit and other bonuses vs. designated quarry.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Staggering Critical (DC 30) Critical hit staggers target
Stunning Critical (DC 30) Critical hit stuns or staggers target.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +8 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+9 if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.
Wild Empathy +15 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
7 hits for 1d10 (15-20/x2) + 6d6 sneak attack + Dex mod + 2d6 from Bleeding Critical applied on the sneak attacks.
Assuming a sneak attack each hit is 23 avg damage + Dex mod. Using the ranger version with power attack each hit is 22 avg damage (str factored in already). Both builds can apply the 2d6 bleed on a crit - and should crit about as often.
Except that on a crit the ranger version adds the 20 power attack and doubles it - where sneak attack damage is only once. Also your attack matrix is 7 attacks - the ranger version is 6 with 1d10+9 rend which is much more likely to hit.
Your mileage may vary but the reason the str build wins on this crit focus build over sneak attack all comes down to how power attack interacts with a crit and sneak attack doesn't.
I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned it yet, but bleed damage doesn't work the way you seem to assume it does. Bleed isn't a damage rider on attacks like say, an elemental damage ability. Bleed deals damage to an opponent at the start of their turn, and bleed doesn't stack if it deals the same kind of damage(hit point damage/ability damage). So if you're doing 2d6 bleed, that means that the opponent will take 2d6 damage at the start of it's turn, that's it. In order to deal the 28d6 bleed damage you expected in 2 rounds (possibly), it would actually take 14 rounds of combat.
Bleeding Critical works differently, it does stack with itself.
My bad, I could have sworn that they had changed it so it works like all other bleed effects, I even quickly checked the special on the feat cause that's where I thought the stacking clause used to be.
I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned it yet, but bleed damage doesn't work the way you seem to assume it does. Bleed isn't a damage rider on attacks like say, an elemental damage ability. Bleed deals damage to an opponent at the start of their turn, and bleed doesn't stack if it deals the same kind of damage(hit point damage/ability damage). So if you're doing 2d6 bleed, that means that the opponent will take 2d6 damage at the start of it's turn, that's it. In order to deal the 28d6 bleed damage you expected in 2 rounds (possibly), it would actually take 14 rounds of combat.
Bleeding Critical works differently, it does stack with itself.
My bad, I could have sworn that they had changed it so it works like all other bleed effects, I even quickly checked the special on the feat cause that's where I thought the stacking clause used to be.
As far as i know its the only applicable bleed effect that goes out of its way to say it stacks with itself.
Effortless Lace removes the extra -2 from dual rapiers.
Monk AC will become better than using armor, since there's no DEX cap and you also add WIS to CMD. All saves get a boost from 1 level of Monk, and your Will save is already strong from WIS. Mage Armor can add +4 "armor" enhancement.
With a Panache Pool, a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf allows you to give both rapiers +5ft to their reach for one minute with a point of Panache. You can activate the power with a free hand, then quick-draw your swords. Difficult Swings lets you play your reach while denying enemies a 5ft. step. The Dodging Panache Deed grants more mobility when attacked.
Elemental Fist through a rapier strike isn't really all that exciting at first, though Shaitan Style makes it 1d6+WIS. The real draw is that Shaitan Skin forces any target hit by your Elemental Fist rapier strike to make a high Reflex save or be staggered.
If you just want easy dex-to-damage on a TWF character, dual rapiers with Fencing Grace can work well. Effortless Lace can bring down the TWF penalty, or Martial Versatility can let you use Fencing Grace with a light Weapon while Advanced Weapon Training grabs Weapon feats for rapier plus your other light blade. Really, even just accepting a -2 to get easy dex-to-damage is often worth it.
Also, be wary of choices and features that pay off at very high levels - at best they work at the very end of a campaign, at worst the campaign doesn't reach that level.
Slayer is a solid class, but you can certainly do something like a dual rapier dervish Fighter that will nab you the level 11 mobility at level 11. The Dervish Swashbuckler has a similar ability that kicks in at level 7.
Edit: Apologies if you noted this already, but you don't need the later Weapon Training to get Advanced Weapon Training - you can grab it as a bonus Fighter Feat at level 4 with a Weapon Master.
Well, I did want it with kukris though. And while you can, you could get the weapon group first, so that every time you get a future weapon trianing, it gets a +1/+1. So I'd be missing it if I did that.
nicholas storm wrote:
Following up what Bigbird said, if the level 11 ability of fighter is what you are looking for in this build, then why not move up the two fighter levels to 13 and 14. Otherwise, you don't get that ability until level 20, when most APs are done.
Because I need level 9 UnRogue for the 6d6 (w/ accomplished sneak attacker) for the Sneaking Precision feat. So I either get one late, or both late. Though now that i noticed that sneaking precision uses a swift action I might remake the build...
BadBird wrote:
Here's a (mostly) Fighter dervish character wielding two rapiers that can do a lot of crazy stuff:
The Shaitan Armsman
Like I said, I would prefer to keep the kukris. My issue with all this is simple, though I really should have explained my situation in the OP.
My first objective was to make a purely physical damage TWF character. Then I started searching for viable builds with the picture of a guy holding 2 swords. Then I was going a bit deeper into how it was supposed to be built and encountered STR and DEX builds, chose DEX because most TWF builds i saw were dex based and later saw that they were a bit more effective than the STR based ones. Also the STR based ones were mostly barbarians, and for barbarians 2h is theoretically better than 2x1h.
Then I played with different swords and daggers for better optimization. Reached the conclusion that either Scimitar and Kukri were the best in theeir categories. I did think of using rapiers... but how "logic" is your picture of a guy holding 2 rapiers fighting an orc or a skeleton? So between looking a bit dumb and looking great while doing nearly the same I started to look for ways to compensate the lack of damage.
That brought me to sneak attack, criticals, Focused Weapon and the like. And this is how it ended. Please do bear in mind that I made this in just one day.
I'm also trying to stay within the normal stuff in terms of feats and ways to build/play it. Your build deviates to monk styles, unarmed strike and wisdom. Not so twf with swords/daggers-ish. See that I'm trying to make a character that also makes "sense" on how its built?
This goes for everyone in this thread: I really did not think my thread would get so much attention, I appretiate all your suggestions from obviously more vast knowledge than what I have and feel that I wasted your time, apologies for that.
I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.
Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.
I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.
Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.
I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.
Dagger v Kurui on a rogue means near nothing critical wise.
WHY?
Because sneak attack does not multiply on Critical. Basically a crit for a rogue means like an extra 2-8 damage.
A higher critcal weapon like a kukrui is best on a non SA oriented character.
In my honest opinion if a rouge is playing a high critical weapon he should be using Butterfly Sting to give crits to the more qualified.
Lastly the build I Recommend SKIPS double slice and all pre-reqs for Two Weapon Rend.
I Personally don't like the rogue class but you seemed pretty hell-bent on it. Slayers and Rangers make some of the best TWFers out there. Why? Because they can skip dex all together. And a good portion of thier damage are not Sneak attack dependant. Precision damage tends to be unreliable compared to other sources of damage. Also since their damage is not 100% precision they benefit from high crit weapons.
A two weapon warrior fighter is one of the better TWF archetypes for a fighter since it helps to get in both weapon attacks as a standard, lowers your TWF penalties, and increases your Dodge bonus when you attack with both weapons.
My last bit of advice about Pathfinder. Do NOT be suckered into class names. Fighter is a theme. To be a fighter does not mean going with fighter class. A Barbarian or Slayer makes great "fighters" who in several ways have some better options than the class named fighter. Same with Rogue. Many a classes can play roguish and offer many better tools and abilities for being a bastard scoundral/scout than the class called rogue.
This goes for everyone in this thread: I really did not think my thread would get so much attention, I appretiate all your suggestions from obviously more vast knowledge than what I have and feel that I wasted your time, apologies for that.
No need to apologize I only put the ranger/fighter together because Qandry mentioned that and I've toyed with the idea of a str based 2 weapon build using ranger to get the goodies without a dex score at all for some time - I was curious how it would play out.
I think your build is viable - the only real weakness that I see is the fact that you are dependent on precision damage for most of the 'ooomph'. The fact that precision damage also ignores the crit (which you will get alot of with this build) is also a bummer - however I don't think it makes the build bad.
Much of what you will get out of this build will depend on your group - how others at the table optimize - and how your GM plays with combat. Blinding critical is very nice as once you blind an opponent all your attacks get the sneak attack dice.
As a final thought - another reason Str is a 'go to' over dex for many builds - is that it's much easier to get your strength score up than dex. There is an item, spell, or way to get bonuses to Str for almost every type of effect category - dex isn't so lucky.
Dagger v Kurui on a rogue means near nothing critical wise.
WHY?
Because sneak attack does not multiply on Critical. Basically a crit for a rogue means like an extra 2-8 damage.
A higher critcal weapon like a kukrui is best on a non SA oriented character.
In my honest opinion if a rouge is playing a high critical weapon he should be using Butterfly Sting to give crits to the more qualified.
Lastly the build I Recommend SKIPS double slice and all pre-reqs for Two Weapon Rend.
I Personally don't like the rogue class but you seemed pretty hell-bent on it. Slayers and Rangers make some of the best TWFers out there. Why? Because they can skip dex all together. And a good portion of thier damage are not Sneak attack dependant. Precision damage tends to be unreliable compared to other sources of damage. Also since their damage is not 100% precision they benefit from high crit weapons.
A two weapon warrior fighter is one of the better TWF archetypes for a fighter since it helps to get in both weapon attacks as a standard, lowers your TWF penalties, and increases your Dodge bonus when you attack with both weapons.
My last bit of advice about Pathfinder. Do NOT be suckered into class names. Fighter is a theme. To be a fighter does not mean going with fighter class. A Barbarian or Slayer makes great "fighters" who in several ways have some better options than the class named fighter. Same with Rogue. Many a classes can play roguish and offer many better tools and abilities for being a bastard scoundral/scout than the class called rogue.
The rogue levels were just for the unrogue dex on damage rolls, and the other 6 levels were for the requs for sneaking precision which is not really that good.
I play with crits to stack Bleeding Critical.
I do know that about themes thats why im mixing and playing with archetypes. Right now for example I'm trying to see how good would a Slayer be.
I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.
You have misread and misunderstood the ability then.
This community will not be lying to you.
The ability works like if your a Ranger...just pick your style and then cherry pick your pre-reqs free feat. Many people choose TWF or Sword and board (cause it's the other TWF style)
I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.
You have misread and misunderstood the ability then.
This community will not be lying to you.
The ability works like if your a Ranger...just pick your style and then cherry pick your pre-reqs free feat. Many people choose TWF or Sword and board (cause it's the other TWF style)
Yeah I'm doing that. Also here's a slayer counterpart to the build in the OP. Im working on a STR-based one now. Not sure if the order of the feats and talents is right, or if im missing something. Curiously this one had more feat slots than what i thought it would have.
I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.
Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.
I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.
Taking the 4th rogue level for the scout archetype ability later, along with UnRogue debuff on sneak attack is a decent choice. Maybe not at level 4 but a little later.
You don't lose BAB for doing it and get a lot of good things.
I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.
Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.
I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.
Taking the 4th rogue level for the scout archetype ability later, along with UnRogue debuff on sneak attack is a decent choice. Maybe not at level 4 but a little later.
You don't lose BAB for doing it and get a lot of good things.
Yup, noticed it like 20 seconds after i posted it and was working on fixing it. Now it's fixed.
I have a twf kukri rogue set up similarly, in PFS. I used Butterfly Sting to hand off the crits to someone else in the party. Used a Wayang, who would get longarm and reduce person to sneak attack while Tiny. His actual damage dice is down to 1d2+6, so at level 6 I had to make a choice: am I focusing on the Crits, or on the Sneak Attack? I chose to focus on sneak attack and retrain out of the crit parts.
Since you mentioned only taking mid-level rouge to boost sneak attack, sneak one level of Brawler (snakebite striker) in there when you can. It'll add 1d6 to your sneak attack* while still being full bab. There's archetypes for Alchemist, and (with a swift) magus that do this too, but loose the bab. There's also 3 prestige classes that get sneak at level one, but they're not that good otherwise.
*Note that these are based on regular rogue sneak attack, not unrogue. So they will not work when the target has concealment unless you take a feat. Whether they count as stacking for prereqs is up to your GM - ask first.
I definitely recommend taking that 4th level of unrouge early to get scout's charge and debilitating strikes.
An item that will be quite useful to you: Amulet of the Blooded (Fey). 10,000gp, and you get 9 rounds per day of greater Invisibility. And 3 Hideous Laughter per day. Sure, it takes a round to turn on, but then you can sneak attack everyone.
Might also want Sandals of Quick Reaction, so you can take a move and a standard in the surprise round.
The trait "The Vessel Between" will give you +1 to hit on anything that would be a sneak attack.
With d8's, the Powerful Sneak rogue talent is more appealing, though you're still taking a penalty to hit.
I have a twf kukri rogue set up similarly, in PFS. I used Butterfly Sting to hand off the crits to someone else in the party. Used a Wayang, who would get longarm and reduce person to sneak attack while Tiny. His actual damage dice is down to 1d2+6, so at level 6 I had to make a choice: am I focusing on the Crits, or on the Sneak Attack? I chose to focus on sneak attack and retrain out of the crit parts.
Since you mentioned only taking mid-level rouge to boost sneak attack, sneak one level of Brawler (snakebite striker) in there when you can. It'll add 1d6 to your sneak attack* while still being full bab. There's archetypes for Alchemist, and (with a swift) magus that do this too, but loose the bab. There's also 3 prestige classes that get sneak at level one, but they're not that good otherwise.
*Note that these are based on regular rogue sneak attack, not unrogue. So they will not work when the target has concealment unless you take a feat. Whether they count as stacking for prereqs is up to your GM - ask first.
I definitely recommend taking that 4th level of unrouge early to get scout's charge and debilitating strikes.
An item that will be quite useful to you: Amulet of the Blooded (Fey). 10,000gp, and you get 9 rounds per day of greater Invisibility. And 3 Hideous Laughter per day. Sure, it takes a round to turn on, but then you can sneak attack everyone.
Might also want Sandals of Quick Reaction, so you can take a move and a standard in the surprise round.
The trait "The Vessel Between" will give you +1 to hit on anything that would be a sneak attack.
With d8's, the Powerful Sneak rogue talent is more appealing, though you're still taking a penalty to hit.
The brawler part called my attention... but that would work for the sneaking precision build I made before. In my last reply I remade the build and did not take sneaking precision so I dont really need sneak attack for that in particular. I am now getting it only because i went for slayer, which seems to be better option than fighter.
I use Butterfly Sting on a melee support pc i made like a month ago. Strategist Standard Bearer Cavalier/Tactician Fighter (dex-based), using a scimitar and an empty hand.
Just to clarify, Weapon Master does increase it's Weapon Training bonus every four levels - it's included in the first training ability. The only reason I brought Weapon Master up is that if you multiclass, Weapon Master opens up core Fighter benefits at 3/4 instead of 5, which can make a huge difference. A Slayer with 3 levels of Weapon Master can add +3 to attack and damage with training + gloves of dueling, and 4 levels opens up Advanced Weapon Training options.
Note that you only ever need 17 DEX to use two weapons effectively, so it's quite possible to create a strength-based character using two weapons that isn't a Slayer or Ranger if you want to. Dual Talent Human actually makes it quite easy, and even a Slayer needs 15 DEX anyhow if they want Double Slice.
Dual rapier might seem odd against a skeleton, but honestly, I've always found the idea of taking down an ogre or dragon with just a couple choppy knives a bit goofy myself.
Edit: incidentally, the single best TWF crit-machine weapon is falcata. 1d8, 19-20 x3 is murderous.
Just to clarify, Weapon Master does increase it's Weapon Training bonus every four levels - it's included in the first training ability. The only reason I brought Weapon Master up is that if you multiclass, Weapon Master opens up core Fighter benefits at 3/4 instead of 5, which can make a huge difference. A Slayer with 3 levels of Weapon Master can add +3 to attack and damage with training + gloves of dueling, and 4 levels opens up Advanced Weapon Training options.
Note that you only ever need 17 DEX to use two weapons effectively, so it's quite possible to create a strength-based character using two weapons that isn't a Slayer or Ranger if you want to. Dual Talent Human actually makes it quite easy, and even a Slayer needs 15 DEX anyhow if they want Double Slice.
Dual rapier might seem odd against a skeleton, but honestly, I've always found the idea of taking down an ogre or dragon with just a couple choppy knives a bit goofy myself.
Ah yes, what I meant is that the weapon training from the weapon master cannot be exchanged for advanced weapon training. It's fixed.
Though the weapon master 3 + gloves of dueling idea is... interesting. Might also think of using it in other characters...
Yes 17 DEX is all i need for the feats, but if you take str for the attack rolls then the 17 dex will mean nothing to it. Instead with finesse and 3 levels into UnRogue I can use it for both attack and damage rolls, raising it also raises my AC, amount of AoO and reflex saves. Str would only affect my fort saves and my carrying capacity.
So its mainly what else you want to do along with the dmg and atk rolls. AC, ref saves and AoOs or fort saves and carrying capacity.
Note that I'm not counting acrobatics for avoiding AoOs, nor maneuvers that depend on STR, this guy is for plain damage.
Edit: 1d8, 19-20 x3. Or 1d4 15-20 x2? I'm not using the crits to deal more damage, im using them to trigger Bleeding Critical.
These posts are hella long, so forgive if this isn't this has been said already but... I would use daggers over Kukris. Your main damage Wil come from sneak attack which isn't multiplied on a crit. Daggers give you the option to be thrown, which is really clutch in situations where your first attack drops an enemy and someone else is outside of your melee reach for iteratives. Or other situations where melee isn't attractive.
These posts are hella long, so forgive if this isn't this has been said already but... I would use daggers over Kukris. Your main damage Wil come from sneak attack which isn't multiplied on a crit. Daggers give you the option to be thrown, which is really clutch in situations where your first attack drops an enemy and someone else is outside of your melee reach for iteratives. Or other situations where melee isn't attractive.
Dont worry, the kukris are the main attraction. One reason I got Quick Draw for was for throwing daggers, which i'll have strapped and ready to fly.
These posts are hella long, so forgive if this isn't this has been said already but... I would use daggers over Kukris. Your main damage Wil come from sneak attack which isn't multiplied on a crit. Daggers give you the option to be thrown, which is really clutch in situations where your first attack drops an enemy and someone else is outside of your melee reach for iteratives. Or other situations where melee isn't attractive.
Dont worry, the kukris are the main attraction. One reason I got Quick Draw for was for throwing daggers, which i'll have strapped and ready to fly.
Well, the upside to using Daggers for melee is well as you double dip for bonuses like weapon focus and enhancement. (You may want to consider an option like a blink-back belt, returning enchantments, or the Ricochet Toss feats so you can throw expensive weapons without losing money.) Those bonuses can start becoming quite significant for hitting enemies and doing more damage.
You can also replace throwing feats for more melee feats. This build just gives the option of throwing as well as melee.
I used to like throwing builds, but then I took a Capt America fan to the knee. Since then all throwing builds just... didnt shine to me. Throwing daggers is plain, javelins is complicated, hammers is too dwarven, shields is too avenger-ish, shurikens is too ninja. The only viable ones there are the shurikens, daggers and perhaps hammers. Even then i need enough ammo to last an entire fight, and before the blink-back belt that's expensive. And it's highly probable that the build wont be better than your average archer.
Yes 17 DEX is all i need for the feats, but if you take str for the attack rolls then the 17 dex will mean nothing to it. Instead with finesse and 3 levels into UnRogue I can use it for both attack and damage rolls, raising it also raises my AC, amount of AoO and reflex saves. Str would only affect my fort saves and my carrying capacity.
There's nothing at all wrong with 3 levels of URogue; it's just worth noting that levels are a major resource. Dropping 3 levels of whatever else you could be doing is a significant trade-off. If you're going DEX-based kukris with 3 URogue just because it seems like the 'best' way to go, know that there are a ton of other options. If I was going to create a Fighter/Rogue, it would probably be a 'shadow warrior' type character in mithral heavy armor using regular Rogue to get Ninja tricks, and eventually working in Shatter Defenses.
Zaetar wrote:
Edit: 1d8, 19-20 x3. Or 1d4 15-20 x2? I'm not using the crits to deal more damage, im using them to trigger Bleeding Critical.
By the time you actually get Bleeding Critical it's not a major source of damage; it's average ~7 damage on a crit, delayed. Very nice to have, but not that big compared to what a critical hit is already adding by then. Plain old Weapon Specialization is worth +4 damage on a crit and +2 on all other hits.
The build I posted is for melee, but can also throw darts. A more focused melee build would remove dodge, close quarter's thrower, quick draw, and ricochet shot and add in power attack and martial focus.
The nice thing about brawler's flurry is that you only need 1 weapon to flurry (saving on magic weapon increases). It also builds in double slice. The only drawback is monk weapons or close fighter group weapons.
Yes 17 DEX is all i need for the feats, but if you take str for the attack rolls then the 17 dex will mean nothing to it. Instead with finesse and 3 levels into UnRogue I can use it for both attack and damage rolls, raising it also raises my AC, amount of AoO and reflex saves. Str would only affect my fort saves and my carrying capacity.
There's nothing at all wrong with 3 levels of URogue; it's just worth noting that levels are a major resource. Dropping 3 levels of whatever else you could be doing is a significant trade-off. If you're going DEX-based kukris with 3 URogue just because it seems like the 'best' way to go, know that there are a ton of other options. If I was going to create a Fighter/Rogue, it would probably be a 'shadow warrior' type character in mithral heavy armor using regular Rogue to get Ninja tricks, and eventually working in Shatter Defenses.
Zaetar wrote:
Edit: 1d8, 19-20 x3. Or 1d4 15-20 x2? I'm not using the crits to deal more damage, im using them to trigger Bleeding Critical.
By the time you actually get Bleeding Critical it's not a major source of damage; it's average ~7 damage on a crit, delayed. Very nice to have, but not that big compared to what a critical hit is already adding by then. Plain old Weapon Specialization is worth +4 damage on a crit and +2 on all other hits.
4 levels*... I dont really miss much on the last 4 slayer levels so its not a bad trade off, also using dex mod on damage rolls is something quite hard. There are not many ways to do so, and again you go with the theme mixing "shadow armored warrior-ninja"
Let me remind you that bleeding critical stacks with itself, and wont come off without a heal be it with skill or with magic.
nicholas storm wrote:
The nice thing about brawler's flurry is that you only need 1 weapon to flurry (saving on magic weapon increases). It also builds in double slice. The only drawback is monk weapons or close fighter group weapons.
Just so that you can rest assured that im not ignoring your suggestion or ideas, here is my brawler the "Overpowering Striker":
Brawler's Flurry (no PC Str mod):
2. +3/+3
6. +7/+7/+2
11.+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
16.+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
20.+24/+24/+19/+19/+12/+12/+9
(Apply -2 if not using Mutagen, -4 after level 12)
4 levels*... I dont really miss much on the last 4 slayer levels so its not a bad trade off...
When you look at it like you're creating a character to start at level 20, it's not a big deal. When you're actually going through a campaign leveling a character, it's a big deal when things like Study Target or Slayer Talents are delayed by 4 levels. Just building level 20 characters is fun, but if you've got to actually take them through a campaign...
Zaetar wrote:
Let me remind you that bleeding critical stacks with itself, and wont come off without a heal be it with skill or with magic.
Indeed, Bleeding Critical causes 2d6 bleed every time you crit. 2d6 = an average of 7 damage. So every crit adds ~7 damage that triggers after your turn is over. By comparison, Weapon Specialization (or the Greater one) adds +2 damage to all hits, which becomes +4 (or more) on a critical hit. If you have a character that deals ~20 damage with a weapon, a x2 critical hit is worth another ~20 damage, which is almost three times what you're then tagging on with bleed. If a creature is still alive to take a second batch of bleed damage two rounds after you began to hit it will full attacks, something is wrong. Bleeding Critical is a very nice bonus, but it's not a big deal if you already do solid weapon damage.
When you look at it like you're creating a character to start at level 20, it's not a big deal. When you're actually going through a campaign leveling a character, it's a big deal when things like Study Target or Slayer Talents are delayed by 4 levels. Just building level 20 characters is fun, but if you've got to actually take them through a campaign...
Indeed, Bleeding Critical causes 2d6 bleed every time you crit. 2d6 = an average of 7 damage. So every crit adds ~7 damage that triggers after your turn is over. By comparison, Weapon Specialization (or the Greater one) adds +2 damage to all hits, which becomes +4 (or more) on a critical hit. If you have a character that deals ~20 damage with a weapon, a x2 critical hit is worth another ~20 damage, which is almost three times what you're then tagging on with bleed. If a creature is still alive to take a second batch of bleed damage two rounds after you began to hit it will full attacks, something is wrong. Bleeding Critical is a very nice bonus, but it's not a big deal if you already do solid weapon damage.
Yeah I know that kind of progression issues. I only play campaigns where you start at 1st level, maybe 4 or 5. I just like seeing the whole picture and this one is not that bad, I'm getting plenty to entertain myself here.
I tried the combination UnRogue with Slayer instead of Fighter and well... kinda liked it, there is more stuff there that makes fighting something fun. So weapon spec is out of the equation.
