Zaetar's page

I've noticed that the Twilight Speaker Skald archetype does not alter but replaces Inspired Rage. What i fail to see is how this affects Rage Powers, which only affect Inspired Rage.

Does this effectively mean the entire Rage Power class feature becomes utterly useless? Or does it work during Inspiring Devotion, which is Inspired Rage's replacement?

Many texts say that an outsider will unconditionally obey and even go to the extent of causing the death of the one that knows their name to not let others know it. Also mispronouncing it would make the outsider suffer.

Does knowing them have any utility other than taking an outsider as hostage to do you bidding? Why is a True name so important? I pretty sure I'm missing an important part of the lore here since this comes from a nice while ago.

Amazing work you put in.... congrats! Although I think creating a completely new spell list is unnecessary.

Thanks for taking a look at it! :)

Had to, how much sense do you see on a plant raising a wall of lava or throwing lightning from the tips of his... leaves? There is also a bunch of fire spells there. I'll modify the Avatar of the Seed a little bit since having near no blasts is sort of hindering it.

Okay... so i spent the whole day researching and creating this archetype. In short, it is a druid archetype for elves based on plants. While I know there is already one, it's not exactly the best thing ever. The idea of this is to make it viable and entertaining.

I based the idea on the Entobians metamorphosis. At certain point you get a choice, to remain the same or to specialize into one of 4 options.

The Avatar of Nature

I'd really appretiate some constructive feedback since I'm sort of bad at balancing stuff i wish my character had.

I'm not the most experienced player but i love theorycrafting. I do believe most people in here know way more than me about PF so i'll be really thankful if you took your time reading it and tell me what's wrong, what's terribly wrong, what's nice or some other suggestion.

Im making an archetype that advances pretty much like Entobians do. You get 5 choices, to remain the same or to pick 1 of 4 different paths. These paths can be compared with PrCs since they count for the last 10 levels. Should I keep them within the archetype or make separate PrCs for each using as prerequisite the archetype? Do you think this is viable?

As I said, I'm still trying to figure this out.
This is my 1st real attempt to make a 2 weapon fighter, most of my other martial characters go the 2 handed weapon route.
Ah well! back to the drawing board.

Morag

If you are still reading this then i suggest Inspired Blade

Might even consider using it instead of my own build. 14-20 x3 with rapiers, even being the capstone, is simply insane. Now this would raise enough numbers to make my brain consider the idea of taking out a giant or a dragon with rapiers. Like a more graceful Kratos.

Thanks,

As I said, I'm still trying to figure this out.
This is my 1st real attempt to make a 2 weapon fighter, most of my other martial characters go the 2 handed weapon route.
Ah well! back to the drawing board.

Morag

Oh i know the feeling... suffered the same with this guy. For some reason unarmed strike builds are not as hard.

Zaetar wrote:

I tried the combination UnRogue with Slayer instead of Fighter and well... kinda liked it, there is more stuff there that makes fighting something fun. So weapon spec is out of the equation.

I only brought up specialization to compare to Bleeding Critical.

If you're planning to go Slayer 3/4 levels late, the two big issues are that Studied Target becomes a swift action only at 10/11, and you probably won't want to use Slayer Talents to take TWF feats due to the delay.

But... free feats... I dont mind waiting a little... :c

When you look at it like you're creating a character to start at level 20, it's not a big deal. When you're actually going through a campaign leveling a character, it's a big deal when things like Study Target or Slayer Talents are delayed by 4 levels. Just building level 20 characters is fun, but if you've got to actually take them through a campaign...

Indeed, Bleeding Critical causes 2d6 bleed every time you crit. 2d6 = an average of 7 damage. So every crit adds ~7 damage that triggers after your turn is over. By comparison, Weapon Specialization (or the Greater one) adds +2 damage to all hits, which becomes +4 (or more) on a critical hit. If you have a character that deals ~20 damage with a weapon, a x2 critical hit is worth another ~20 damage, which is almost three times what you're then tagging on with bleed. If a creature is still alive to take a second batch of bleed damage two rounds after you began to hit it will full attacks, something is wrong. Bleeding Critical is a very nice bonus, but it's not a big deal if you already do solid weapon damage.

Yeah I know that kind of progression issues. I only play campaigns where you start at 1st level, maybe 4 or 5. I just like seeing the whole picture and this one is not that bad, I'm getting plenty to entertain myself here.

I tried the combination UnRogue with Slayer instead of Fighter and well... kinda liked it, there is more stuff there that makes fighting something fun. So weapon spec is out of the equation.

Zaetar wrote:

Yes 17 DEX is all i need for the feats, but if you take str for the attack rolls then the 17 dex will mean nothing to it. Instead with finesse and 3 levels into UnRogue I can use it for both attack and damage rolls, raising it also raises my AC, amount of AoO and reflex saves. Str would only affect my fort saves and my carrying capacity.

There's nothing at all wrong with 3 levels of URogue; it's just worth noting that levels are a major resource. Dropping 3 levels of whatever else you could be doing is a significant trade-off. If you're going DEX-based kukris with 3 URogue just because it seems like the 'best' way to go, know that there are a ton of other options. If I was going to create a Fighter/Rogue, it would probably be a 'shadow warrior' type character in mithral heavy armor using regular Rogue to get Ninja tricks, and eventually working in Shatter Defenses.

Zaetar wrote:

Edit: 1d8, 19-20 x3. Or 1d4 15-20 x2? I'm not using the crits to deal more damage, im using them to trigger Bleeding Critical.

By the time you actually get Bleeding Critical it's not a major source of damage; it's average ~7 damage on a crit, delayed. Very nice to have, but not that big compared to what a critical hit is already adding by then. Plain old Weapon Specialization is worth +4 damage on a crit and +2 on all other hits.

4 levels*... I dont really miss much on the last 4 slayer levels so its not a bad trade off, also using dex mod on damage rolls is something quite hard. There are not many ways to do so, and again you go with the theme mixing "shadow armored warrior-ninja"

Let me remind you that bleeding critical stacks with itself, and wont come off without a heal be it with skill or with magic.

The nice thing about brawler's flurry is that you only need 1 weapon to flurry (saving on magic weapon increases). It also builds in double slice. The only drawback is monk weapons or close fighter group weapons.

Just so that you can rest assured that im not ignoring your suggestion or ideas, here is my brawler the "Overpowering Striker":

Race: Human
Class: Brawler
Archetypes: Mutagenic Mauler, Steel-Breaker
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith

Feats:
1. Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
2. Pummeling Style
3. Double Slice
5. Weapon Spec (Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes
7. Iron Will
8. Pummeling Charge
9. Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
11.Improved Initiative
13.Counterpunch
14.Two Weapon Rend
15.Greater Weapon Spec (Unarmed Strike)
17.Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder
19.Thoughness
20.Endurance, Die Hard

Discoveries:
10.Spontaneous Healing
12.Greater Mutagen

Mutagen Bonus:
1. +2 armor, +4 Str, -2 Int
6. +2 armor, +4 Str, -2 Int, +2 dmg roll
11.+2 armor, +4 Str, -2 Int, +3 dmg roll
12.+4 armor, +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +3 dmg roll
16.+4 armor, +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +4 dmg roll

Brawler's Flurry (no PC Str mod):
2. +3/+3
6. +7/+7/+2
11.+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
16.+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5
20.+24/+24/+19/+19/+12/+12/+9
(Apply -2 if not using Mutagen, -4 after level 12)

Dart Fighter Build

Human Brawler 2/Fighter 18

1 F1 Weapon Focus (Wushu Dart), Point Blank Shot, Startoss Style
2 Br1
3 Br2 Brawler's Flurry, Startoss Comet, Quickdraw
4 F2 Weapon Specialization (Wushu Dart)
5 F3 Startoss Shower
6 F4 Improved 2 Weapon Fighting
7 F5 Weapon Training, Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon)
8 F6 Greater Weapon Focus
9 F7 Improved Critical
10 F8 Richochet Shot
11 F9 Advanced WT (Armed Bravery), Dodge
12 F10 Greater Weapon Specialization
13 F11 Close Quarter's Thrower

At (not counting ability scores or magic)

level 2 - Attack 3 1-3+2
level 3 - Attack 2/2 1-3+4
level 4 - Attack 3/3 1-3+6
level 5 - Attack 4/4 1-3+8
level 6 - Attack 5/5/0/0 1-3+8
level 7 - Attack 7/7/2/2 1-8+9
level 8 - Attack 9/9/4/4 1-8+9
level 10 - Attack 11/11/6/6 1-10+9
level 11 - Attack 13/13/8/8/3 1-10+10
level 12 - Attack 14/14/9/9/4 1-10+12

You can also replace throwing feats for more melee feats. This build just gives the option of throwing as well as melee.

I used to like throwing builds, but then I took a Capt America fan to the knee. Since then all throwing builds just... didnt shine to me. Throwing daggers is plain, javelins is complicated, hammers is too dwarven, shields is too avenger-ish, shurikens is too ninja. The only viable ones there are the shurikens, daggers and perhaps hammers. Even then i need enough ammo to last an entire fight, and before the blink-back belt that's expensive. And it's highly probable that the build wont be better than your average archer.

These posts are hella long, so forgive if this isn't this has been said already but... I would use daggers over Kukris. Your main damage Wil come from sneak attack which isn't multiplied on a crit. Daggers give you the option to be thrown, which is really clutch in situations where your first attack drops an enemy and someone else is outside of your melee reach for iteratives. Or other situations where melee isn't attractive.

Dont worry, the kukris are the main attraction. One reason I got Quick Draw for was for throwing daggers, which i'll have strapped and ready to fly.

Just to clarify, Weapon Master does increase it's Weapon Training bonus every four levels - it's included in the first training ability. The only reason I brought Weapon Master up is that if you multiclass, Weapon Master opens up core Fighter benefits at 3/4 instead of 5, which can make a huge difference. A Slayer with 3 levels of Weapon Master can add +3 to attack and damage with training + gloves of dueling, and 4 levels opens up Advanced Weapon Training options.

Note that you only ever need 17 DEX to use two weapons effectively, so it's quite possible to create a strength-based character using two weapons that isn't a Slayer or Ranger if you want to. Dual Talent Human actually makes it quite easy, and even a Slayer needs 15 DEX anyhow if they want Double Slice.

Dual rapier might seem odd against a skeleton, but honestly, I've always found the idea of taking down an ogre or dragon with just a couple choppy knives a bit goofy myself.

Ah yes, what I meant is that the weapon training from the weapon master cannot be exchanged for advanced weapon training. It's fixed.

Yes 17 DEX is all i need for the feats, but if you take str for the attack rolls then the 17 dex will mean nothing to it. Instead with finesse and 3 levels into UnRogue I can use it for both attack and damage rolls, raising it also raises my AC, amount of AoO and reflex saves. Str would only affect my fort saves and my carrying capacity.

So its mainly what else you want to do along with the dmg and atk rolls. AC, ref saves and AoOs or fort saves and carrying capacity.

Note that I'm not counting acrobatics for avoiding AoOs, nor maneuvers that depend on STR, this guy is for plain damage.

Edit: 1d8, 19-20 x3. Or 1d4 15-20 x2? I'm not using the crits to deal more damage, im using them to trigger Bleeding Critical.

I have a twf kukri rogue set up similarly, in PFS. I used Butterfly Sting to hand off the crits to someone else in the party. Used a Wayang, who would get longarm and reduce person to sneak attack while Tiny. His actual damage dice is down to 1d2+6, so at level 6 I had to make a choice: am I focusing on the Crits, or on the Sneak Attack? I chose to focus on sneak attack and retrain out of the crit parts.

Since you mentioned only taking mid-level rouge to boost sneak attack, sneak one level of Brawler (snakebite striker) in there when you can. It'll add 1d6 to your sneak attack* while still being full bab. There's archetypes for Alchemist, and (with a swift) magus that do this too, but loose the bab. There's also 3 prestige classes that get sneak at level one, but they're not that good otherwise.

*Note that these are based on regular rogue sneak attack, not unrogue. So they will not work when the target has concealment unless you take a feat. Whether they count as stacking for prereqs is up to your GM - ask first.

I definitely recommend taking that 4th level of unrouge early to get scout's charge and debilitating strikes.

An item that will be quite useful to you: Amulet of the Blooded (Fey). 10,000gp, and you get 9 rounds per day of greater Invisibility. And 3 Hideous Laughter per day. Sure, it takes a round to turn on, but then you can sneak attack everyone.

Might also want Sandals of Quick Reaction, so you can take a move and a standard in the surprise round.

The trait "The Vessel Between" will give you +1 to hit on anything that would be a sneak attack.

With d8's, the Powerful Sneak rogue talent is more appealing, though you're still taking a penalty to hit.

The brawler part called my attention... but that would work for the sneaking precision build I made before. In my last reply I remade the build and did not take sneaking precision so I dont really need sneak attack for that in particular. I am now getting it only because i went for slayer, which seems to be better option than fighter.

I use Butterfly Sting on a melee support pc i made like a month ago. Strategist Standard Bearer Cavalier/Tactician Fighter (dex-based), using a scimitar and an empty hand.

Zaetar wrote:

hiiamtom wrote:

I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.

Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.

I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.

Taking the 4th rogue level for the scout archetype ability later, along with UnRogue debuff on sneak attack is a decent choice. Maybe not at level 4 but a little later.

You don't lose BAB for doing it and get a lot of good things.

Yup, noticed it like 20 seconds after i posted it and was working on fixing it. Now it's fixed.

Zaetar wrote:

I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.

You have misread and misunderstood the ability then.

This community will not be lying to you.

The ability works like if your a Ranger...just pick your style and then cherry pick your pre-reqs free feat. Many people choose TWF or Sword and board (cause it's the other TWF style)

Yeah I'm doing that. Also here's a slayer counterpart to the build in the OP. Im working on a STR-based one now. Not sure if the order of the feats and talents is right, or if im missing something. Curiously this one had more feat slots than what i thought it would have.

Race: Human
Alternate Racial Trait: Focused Study
Class: Slayer (1/6+), Unchained Rogue (2-5)
Archetype: Knife Master, Scout
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith

Feats:
1. TWF
3. Weapon Focus (Kukri)
5. Combat Reflexes
7. Disorienting Maneuver
9. Iron Will
11.Improved Critical
13.Critical Focus
15.Bleeding Critical
17.Great TWF
19.Piranha Strike

Focused Study:
1. Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
8. Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
16.Skill Focus (Perception)

UnRogue Talent:
3.Slow Reactions*
5.Combat Trick: Dodge

Slayer Talents
5. Ranger Combat Style (Quick Draw)
7. Rogue Talent (Unwitting Ally)
9. Ranger Combat Style (ITWF)
11.Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter)
13.Ranger Combat Style (TWRend)
15.Rogue Talent (Feat: Toughness)
17.Rogue Advanced Talent (Opportunist)
19.Assassinate

A Rogues critical mean absolutely nothing.

Dagger v Kurui on a rogue means near nothing critical wise.

WHY?

Because sneak attack does not multiply on Critical. Basically a crit for a rogue means like an extra 2-8 damage.

A higher critcal weapon like a kukrui is best on a non SA oriented character.

In my honest opinion if a rouge is playing a high critical weapon he should be using Butterfly Sting to give crits to the more qualified.

Lastly the build I Recommend SKIPS double slice and all pre-reqs for Two Weapon Rend.

I Personally don't like the rogue class but you seemed pretty hell-bent on it. Slayers and Rangers make some of the best TWFers out there. Why? Because they can skip dex all together. And a good portion of thier damage are not Sneak attack dependant. Precision damage tends to be unreliable compared to other sources of damage. Also since their damage is not 100% precision they benefit from high crit weapons.

A two weapon warrior fighter is one of the better TWF archetypes for a fighter since it helps to get in both weapon attacks as a standard, lowers your TWF penalties, and increases your Dodge bonus when you attack with both weapons.

My last bit of advice about Pathfinder. Do NOT be suckered into class names. Fighter is a theme. To be a fighter does not mean going with fighter class. A Barbarian or Slayer makes great "fighters" who in several ways have some better options than the class named fighter. Same with Rogue. Many a classes can play roguish and offer many better tools and abilities for being a bastard scoundral/scout than the class called rogue.

The rogue levels were just for the unrogue dex on damage rolls, and the other 6 levels were for the requs for sneaking precision which is not really that good.

I play with crits to stack Bleeding Critical.

I do know that about themes thats why im mixing and playing with archetypes. Right now for example I'm trying to see how good would a Slayer be.

I prefer Rogue/Slayer or Rogue/Ranger. The extra skills and lack of prerequisites needed for a combat style is huge. Ranger has spells and an animal companion for high level pouncing TWF on a mount (take knife master and scout to maximize), while slayer is more theme appropriate and aligns with rogue class features.

Personally, I say abandon TWF for THF with 1.5x Dexterity to damage with an Estoc or Elvem Curved Blade.

I could try making UnRogue 3/Slayer 17. Or try to see how well STR-based does compared to it. According to the wording of the ranger combat style talent, you only get 1 feat, it says you can get the talent again twice, but doesnt say you also get a feat when doing so... which sounds weird since you'd be picking it for nothing then.

If you just want easy dex-to-damage on a TWF character, dual rapiers with Fencing Grace can work well. Effortless Lace can bring down the TWF penalty, or Martial Versatility can let you use Fencing Grace with a light Weapon while Advanced Weapon Training grabs Weapon feats for rapier plus your other light blade. Really, even just accepting a -2 to get easy dex-to-damage is often worth it.

Also, be wary of choices and features that pay off at very high levels - at best they work at the very end of a campaign, at worst the campaign doesn't reach that level.

Slayer is a solid class, but you can certainly do something like a dual rapier dervish Fighter that will nab you the level 11 mobility at level 11. The Dervish Swashbuckler has a similar ability that kicks in at level 7.

Edit: Apologies if you noted this already, but you don't need the later Weapon Training to get Advanced Weapon Training - you can grab it as a bonus Fighter Feat at level 4 with a Weapon Master.

Well, I did want it with kukris though. And while you can, you could get the weapon group first, so that every time you get a future weapon trianing, it gets a +1/+1. So I'd be missing it if I did that.

Following up what Bigbird said, if the level 11 ability of fighter is what you are looking for in this build, then why not move up the two fighter levels to 13 and 14. Otherwise, you don't get that ability until level 20, when most APs are done.

Because I need level 9 UnRogue for the 6d6 (w/ accomplished sneak attacker) for the Sneaking Precision feat. So I either get one late, or both late. Though now that i noticed that sneaking precision uses a swift action I might remake the build...

Here's a (mostly) Fighter dervish character wielding two rapiers that can do a lot of crazy stuff:

The Shaitan Armsman

Like I said, I would prefer to keep the kukris. My issue with all this is simple, though I really should have explained my situation in the OP.

My first objective was to make a purely physical damage TWF character. Then I started searching for viable builds with the picture of a guy holding 2 swords. Then I was going a bit deeper into how it was supposed to be built and encountered STR and DEX builds, chose DEX because most TWF builds i saw were dex based and later saw that they were a bit more effective than the STR based ones. Also the STR based ones were mostly barbarians, and for barbarians 2h is theoretically better than 2x1h.

Then I played with different swords and daggers for better optimization. Reached the conclusion that either Scimitar and Kukri were the best in theeir categories. I did think of using rapiers... but how "logic" is your picture of a guy holding 2 rapiers fighting an orc or a skeleton? So between looking a bit dumb and looking great while doing nearly the same I started to look for ways to compensate the lack of damage.

That brought me to sneak attack, criticals, Focused Weapon and the like. And this is how it ended. Please do bear in mind that I made this in just one day.

I'm also trying to stay within the normal stuff in terms of feats and ways to build/play it. Your build deviates to monk styles, unarmed strike and wisdom. Not so twf with swords/daggers-ish. See that I'm trying to make a character that also makes "sense" on how its built?

This goes for everyone in this thread: I really did not think my thread would get so much attention, I appretiate all your suggestions from obviously more vast knowledge than what I have and feel that I wasted your time, apologies for that.

Why stop at level 9 rogue, when you get master tricks at 10?

Because 11 levels into dervish of dawn fighter can get me a pseudo pounce and +2 BAB.

10 levels into UnRogue would get me 1 advanced talent and another skill on rogue's edge (let's face it, this is flavour). And the most useful talents are:
A feat (got plenty already).
Str dmg on sneak attack which I dont really need.
Halving speed which I already do with debilitating injury.
Manually designating targets for sneak attack, which i dont need since i already get free SAs when moving 10' or charging.
And tricks from a rogue sub-class made mostly from rogue talents and flashy stuff I dont really need.

I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned it yet, but bleed damage doesn't work the way you seem to assume it does. Bleed isn't a damage rider on attacks like say, an elemental damage ability. Bleed deals damage to an opponent at the start of their turn, and bleed doesn't stack if it deals the same kind of damage(hit point damage/ability damage). So if you're doing 2d6 bleed, that means that the opponent will take 2d6 damage at the start of it's turn, that's it. In order to deal the 28d6 bleed damage you expected in 2 rounds (possibly), it would actually take 14 rounds of combat.

Bleeding Critical works differently, it does stack with itself.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon, your opponent takes 2d6 points of bleed damage each round on his turn, in addition to the damage dealt by the critical hit. Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing. The effects of this feat stack.

With sneaking precision I can apply it on every sneak attack, if i crit it comes from the crit aswell. So, its a bleedingfest.

Sneaking Precision

Benefit: Whenever you successfully sneak attack an opponent for a second time on your turn, you can spend a swift action to apply the effects of one critical feat you know to that opponent.

Oh Snap! Swift action... well, I dont really think I should worry about it anyway with 15-20 threat range. Realistically, I'll probably will be landing like... 3-5 hits, if two of them are sneak attacks then there is a +2d6 bleed in already.

I like Slayer for TWF builds. You can use your Slayer talents to pick up the Ranger weapon style feats to circumvent the TWF feat chain pre-requisites which allows you to focus on Str instead of Dex. Better BAB, better HD, studied target is pretty sweet and you still get a decent number of skills on a decent skill list. Slayer is the intended meld of rogue and fighter, and you do get the best of both worlds for the most part.

That said, I do admit that I've not tried out any URogue builds for TWF so that route might be more attractive given the new class features from Unchained.

I only got UnRogue due to the free weapon finesse and for being the quickest (and one of the few) way to get DEX mod for attack rolls instead of STR. Other than that the only reason I'm getting 9 levels into UnRogue is for the requirements of Sneaking Precision (+6d6 sneak attack)

But okay, you won. I'll see If I can manage to do something with it... bear in mind that i did know about slayer, but slayer doesnt have Dervish of Dawn, Knife Master and Scout for archetypes. And if we follow your train of thought then it will be just a twf ranger with rogue tricks instead of spells and feats instead of animal companion.

Weapon Master can actually get advanced weapon training stuff from the advanced weapon training feat, if I remember right. Note that Focused Weapon is based on Fighter level, so it won't have a big effect on a multiclass character.

The special rules for Weapon Master are in the entry for the Advanced Weapon Training feat (now that I bothered to look it up). A Weapon Master can actually take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat three times with four levels: once as normal, once with the level 4 bonus feat, and once by changing a previous bonus feat.

Weapon Master Replaces Weapon Training, so I can't "take an advance weapon trainign in place of a weapon training" because i dont have one. Otherwise it would be like saying "I take an advanced weapon training instead of gaining Mirror Move". Doesn't say you can anywhere or it should say "This ability otherwise works like Weapon Training".

Other than that my only explanation to the Mirror Move entry refers to the amount of weapon trainings you should already have (1 at 5, 2 at 9 and so on). Many archetypes replace them by letting you get the same bonus, but restricted to the weapon of the archetype so it's kinda obvious and it also shows in the chart. Guess the wording in Weapon Master is not the best one in the world.
Sorry my bad, you do get a restricted Weapon Training like other archetypes. But since you still replaced the others you can't "replace" them again for an advanced one.

And yes I do know that about Focused Weapon, that's why the last calculation said 1d10 and not 2d8. 1d10 is what a level 11 warpriest gets for sacred weapon damage.

The initial idea was to make a twf character, found out few builds related to rogues, found a good one based on knife master and scout. Then wondered how good would a twf fighter-based would be since everything i was looking at was efficiency in combat and well, fighters do fight better than most other classes so it was obvious... but i still wanted that rogue touch on it and wanted to keep it.

Then I started mixing levels and archetypes till i found balance in the build i posted. The first half dedicated to TWF, the second part dedicated to sneak attack effects and more importantly the bleeding critical.

I really could take that GTWF from the feat list and there would be a slot for something more useful, but still im not sure about the TWRend. It makes me take a feat that would be utterly useless on this obvious dex build and the rend itself is just a 1d10 per round IF i hit to start with. So if i cant even do what im supposed to do, i wont be able to do what you guys suggest.

The TWF -2 penalization is compensated by the 2 focus feats.
At level 20 my attacks would be: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2 and i'm not counting the ability mods nor magic nor weapon enhancement.

I mean... if I am able to land the normal hits, then i will be able to land the twf hits. Same if im not able to do so.

I did think about taking more levels into fighter for the feats, or taking more levels into UnRogue for the sneak/talents, but it would change drastically half of the build itself if i do. If i go more rogue I'll be deadlier with the sneak attack, but my kukris will be puny little iron bars and i'll be feat starved. If i go more fighter then i'll get more feats than what I need and won't get many more interesting abilities. This is just the point in the middle where i'm sort of good at both things... a rogue would just get few more talents and some more sneak attack, a fighter would get more feats.

@Fruian Thistlefoot
If i do what you say, i'd be changing 60% of the build i made. I said suggestions, not complete reformings. Also, i need the 3 unrogue levels for the dex mod on damage rolls.

@Dracoknight
Does it work on kukris? Because I dont really want to let go of the 15-20 crit.

@Quandary
I get what you say, this is not the only character I made, it's just one i've been dilemmaing myself with for an entire day trying to find perfect balance. The objective is simple: deal damage. Let the barbarian do the sunderings, and the debuffs to the wizard. Plus this build already reduces attack rolls, AC, movement speed, disables 5' step and uses Blind. Any more than that and it would go to the "debuffers" category than to "stupid damage dealers".

@BadBird
I was trying to find an archetype that wouldnt replace weapon training so that i could take the advanced weapon training Focused Weapon.

And my bad, had to remake the feat list a little in the last moment due to some incongruencies and forgot to change that. Just swap it with Accomplished Sneak Attacker... for some reason i cant edit my post? oh well nvm.

Swap Gweapon Focus for Accomplished Sneak Attacker

Greater TWF is a Trap...Too hard to hit. But Two weapon Rend is a great feat to replace it with.

Requires Double Slice and both are made for Str-based builds.

I'm not sure i understand how two weapon rend works... the description implies that i need to hit with both weapons simultaneously, and I dont do that. If we say that I just need to hit with main and off hand weapons in the same round then yeah, it gives me an extra 1d10. Which would be same as actually landing one more hit.

Hello! So... yeah I've spent the entire day trying to design this character.

The plan was to make a TWF Rogue, but then I saw how a fighter would get more combat oriented abilities while still getting to deal more damage with the same stuff. I didn't want to depend on sneak attack since there is plenty of stuff that cant be hit by it, but! There is some stuff that's worth getting sneak attack for.

All in all this is the result:

Race: Human
Alternate Racial Trait: Focused Study
Class: Fighter (4-12/19-20), Unchained Rogue (1-3/13-18)
Archetype: Dervish of Dawn, Knife Master, Scout
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith

Feats:
1.TWF
1.H.Focused Study (Acrobatics)
1.F1.Weapon Focus (Kukri)

2.UR1.Finesse Training (Kukri)

3.Combat Reflexes
3.UR2.Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions*

5.Dodge
5.F2.Disorienting Maneuver

7.Improved TWF
7.F4.Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)

8.H.Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
8.F5.Weapon Training (Light Blades)

9.Iron Will
9.F6.Improved Critical

11.Bleeding Critical
11.F8.Focused Critical

12.F9.Advanced Weapon training (Focused Weapon)

13.Blinding Critical
13.F10.Greater TWF

14.UR4.Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Initiative

15.Accomplished Sneak Attacker
15.UR5. Rogue’s Edge: Acrobatics

16.H.Skill focus (Perception)
16.UR6.Rogue Talent: Certainty (Acrobatics)

17.Toughness

18.UR8.Rogue Talent: Extreme Leaper

19.Sneaking Precision

Sneak Attack:
2.1d6
4.2d6
15.4d6
17.5d6
19.6d6

BAB:
1. +1
2. +1
3. +2
4. +3
5. +4
6. +5
7. +6/+1
8. +7/+2
9. +8/+3
10.+9/+4
11.+10/+5
12.+11/+6/+1
13.+12/+7/+2
14.+13/+8/+3
15.+13/+8/+3
16.+14/+9/+4
17.+15/+10/+5
18.+16/+11/+6/+1
19.+16/+11/+6/+1
20.+17/+12/+7/+2

I still need to make sure that Dervish of Dawn's Rapid Attack works as i think it works though, as far as i can see I can make a full attack forgoing the highest bab attack on a single move, at any point of said move, so I do believe im not using the standard action there, pretty nice for charging if its possible to do it then. Even if i cant, then if its only the move action, then i still can do the standard action,

Knife Master gives me an unneeded but situationally useful sleight of hand check bonus, and a little nice boost on sneak attack damage.
Scout gets me 100% sneak attack (except on precision damage immune targets) on a charge or on moving 10', so it synergyzes REALLY well with the Dervish of Dawn archetype.

The first level (fighter) gets me the proficiency I need to wield kukris and a bonus feat, everyone love bonus feats.
The next 3 on unchained rogue help me get weapon finesse and dex mod on attack rolls, aswell as sneak attack modification that could save your life.
From level 5 to level 13 we will enjoy the fighter's featfest and grab the core feats that will make our character.
At 12th level, the Focused Weapon advanced training upgrades the damage of the puny little kukris from 1d4 to 1d8, and at 13 this goes up to 1d10! Not so puny little kukris now.
From level 14th onwards we'll be grabbing some cool rogue talents while waiting for the amazing +6d6 on sneak attacks (Accomplished Sneak Attacker helps us a bit there). You might think that missing +3 BAB and the Dervish of Dawn ability Lightning Strike (basically Rapid Shot for melee) is not worth the sneak attack nor the talents, but wait...
At level 19th, the very last feat slot goes to Sneaking Precision letting us apply Blinding Critical on the frist sneak attack and ensure future sneak attacks in the same turn and, most importantly Bleeding Critical on every sneak attack, and guess what? Unlike other bleeding effects this one stacks with itself!

As an example of a level 20 ideal full attack, landing all 7 attacks and sneak attacks (imagine the target is blinded, flanked or something):

7 hits for 1d10 (15-20/x2) + 6d6 sneak attack + Dex mod + 2d6 from Bleeding Critical applied on the sneak attacks.

Think that landing 2 of these full attacks, by the third turn the target suffers a whooping 28d6 only from bleeding! If you also make a critical hit while doing all that (which is highly possible) you get another +2d6 from bleeding that comes from said critical hit!

BTW, dont forget the Slow Reactions sneak attack modification (targets hit by sneak attack cannot make AoOs)
And 4 levels into Unchained Rogue gets us Debilitating Injury: every time we deal sneak attack damage we can reduce -2 AC on the target (-4 AC from our attacks), -2 on attack rolls (-4 to us) or, halve the targets movement speed AND disable its 5' step. And you can do the 3 of them in a full attack, just need to land 3 sneak attacks and that's all.

Drawbacks (AKA DM's Section):
As many other martial characters, this guy has low will saves, sort of fixed with Indomitable Faith and Iron will but low nonetheless.

The capstone stuff is both hit dependant and sneak attack dependant. So monsters with immunity to precision damage and/or high AC will render this character useless.

Also, as you may have noticed this guy has no obvious defenses against combat maneuvers. It's main selling point in this regard is high acrobatic skill but still... it wont do much against huge aberrations with multiple limbs, an stampede or well, just use your imagination.

And obviously as with all melee characters, ranged attacks are a problem that cant really be solved without aid from magic items, a party mate or specific feats.

In short: Just deal with it as you deal with any rogue or fighter.

Thank you for taking your time reading this, you are very welcome to give any criticism or suggestions!

Even if i take the bonus talent of level 18, that still is no advanced talent? Where do you take this from? Doesn't say it can't be advanced as far as i found. What's more, I've been finding character builds and people just use the bonus talent for advanced talents.

Human rogues get +1/6 talent per bonus, i do believe is the same for the unchained version?

Also, is that bonus talent restricted by the Advanced Talent feature? For example, can I at level 6 get the talent 'feat'?

Sorry to interrupt, the idea of using Quick Loading is just to get the projectile to set itself on the crossbow. The plan is to only hold and pull the trigger.

I could buy a bunch and keep them in a handy haversack or something. It also lets me fill or take the arrows i want as a standard action (this is not the loading action, this is just to refill the pocket)

How valid would it be to use on every non-repeating crossbow?
+1 - Quick-loading: Dimensional pocket with 100 bolts, move action to reload.
+1 - Self-loading: Reduces move action to free action.

You'd be able to shoot any crossbow that doesnt depend on a magazine without needing to reload it yourself. Quick-Loading would make the bolt pop into existance on the crossbow, and Self-Reloading would make it pull the string back by itself.

That would let you full-attack with any crossbow and never think about reloading it ever again in your life.

Guess one way or another, magic explains it all. Thanks for the confirmation!

Can you use Goz Mask with Sniper Goggles?
Goz mask uses head slot, the goggles eye. But can they both be used at the same time?

It would be something like This i believe?

The thing is that you keep saying it's broken, when it's not.
There are plenty of things that are even more deadly than this, but only because its 3pp you say it's broken. What if paizo published it instead?

In the team's balance a rogue or slayer with this talent will still be in the bad side of the balance, with the other players still being more useful and powerful. This would only allow you to land a full attack of sneak attacks IF you manage to hide first.

For that you need the so important HiPS that would either give you more penalization (Hellcat Stealth), devour the little amount of feats you have (Shadowdancer level, Eldritch Heritage) or take talent slots for terrain mastery and HiPS for those terrains.

What you fail to see is that the talent doesnt balance itself. It balances with the build you choose.

Starting with the talent itself, it adds you another -20, so you really cant use this unless you optimize this really really well. If you lose the check, you lose the entire attack (not hitting with sneak attack) due to losing stealth. And if you optimize this for stealth really really well you'll be on the losing end of everything else.

First and foremost you lack HiPS, you can get it either:
-By taking lots of feats for it, you reduce your damage output, your chances to land the arrows or your capacity to counter senses. Or a bit of each.
-By taking lots of talents, you lose debuffs, extra damage, and feats.
OR
-By using magic to compensate the lack of HiPS you'd need to spend lots amounts of money, negotiate with the DM if you want them crafted, make another player craft it. In any case high levels and lots of money are involved.

The build itself leaves holes for weaknesses, lots of them, so it cant be optimized to a 100%. Unlike many other builds from other classes.

And the fact that you are hidden (not invisible) doesnt mean the enemy cant attempt to find you, nor that you are immune to area of effect spells that could damage or hinder you. Dont forget that while you snipe, you dont move...that means that shooting risks them finding you because you dont move, and if you do move you cant shoot.

You can throw at me all the solutions to everything, but it's not a fighter it's a rogue/slayer, you cant have everything so there is your weakness, a big one. And basically, the moment you get a bad roll, you ruined everything. They'll know where you are, where to search if you hide again, where to shoot AoES, etc. That pretty much balances what the talent gives you.

There are plenty of broken things if you look at them by and for themselves, instead in conjunction with other things.

It just pisses me off how people can contradict themselves. I want something and they say no, but they use something that is the same or worse.

Doesnt make any sense.

So thoughts:
1) Other things being broken are not justification to allow new broken things
2) Animal companions lose effectiveness around level 10. They aren't ever really effective offensively unless you can get Boon Companion. Because a Ranger must split loot with an animal companion to enhance its combat effectiveness it makes the ranger less effective. At level 12 average is 27 for monsters. An animal companion with boon companion is likely going to have a to hit of 14 (9 from BAB and 5 from strength for a wolf) without any gear to help him. That's a 35% chance to hit. While good at low levels they honestly just don't scale enough to remain useful unless you're willing to...

1) You mean allow old stuff that became broken due to new stuff?

There is nearly nothing you can compare the rogue i mentioned with, to keep saying it's broken or OP. I already mentioned obvious ways to counter it, and basically any other rogue or stealth-based PC. There can be permanently invisible characters and npcs but i cant hide by myself and do the same? Now, that's unfair.

Note that being stealth doesnt mean im completly invulnerable to damage because they cant see me. A DM can make many many moves against invisible characters, and the stealth build, no matter how many ranks i got in it will not be 100% perfect, and i'll not land sneak attacks on all the attacks.

This would only let me full attack and try to remain invisible. What if the DM makes an npc send its pet to find me?
What if the npc shoots area spells to make me pop up?
What if the npc has a sense to which i dont have a counter in that moment?
What if the situation is so s**pid, that making a HiPS stealth check will not be allowed? This isn't Skyrim after all.
What if something appears from behind and im the nearest target?

Do you even think that something like that is easy to pull out?
The build is a late bloomer, meaning it will only be effective after at least level 10 or 12. Also by "full attack" it doesnt mean 5 shots right out of the bat, I need level 20 for that. We dont play campaigns starting at more than level 4 or 5, we mostly start out at level 1.

So please tell me how in the world is that talent broken. People will be casting all sorts of spells, pouncing around, hitting like there is no tomorrow and then there is me hiding and trying to manage some sneak attacks through all that.

It's not making it unfair for the PCs just to counter one. Its plain challenge, simple as that. If you want to see it the former way, do it, you are quite the negative person. If you want to do the latter, then it encourages me to keep playing till it fails and I die. Another different matter is being a lazy butt DM making no effort whatsoever on trying to play a challenge, because from another point of view, the DM is also a player in the game and the other people is his challenge. Being DM is not for lazy people that think "it's not worth it", its for people that is up to create and deal with imaginative and smart strategies.

You keep seeing things from your point of view, I understand it. From your pov it makes sense. But it starts not making sense when you see it from my pov, and if you mix both then yours makes no sense AT ALL. I can keep listing more "broken" stuff that happens to come from paizo, but i can bet anything that you'll keep defending your anti-3pp position because of some non-existing reason.

Note: That ranger also has a cute little wolf that trips people and hits definitely not like a girl. And forgot to mention spells.

Also, how is this different from someone quick casting invisibility? How is this different from druids becoming Shamblers or Elementals.
How is this different from barbarians hitting you twice the amount you mentioned in one hit with the chance of hitting someone else, and again and again and so on.
How is this different from summoning 2 dire lions?

You make it sound like you have a personal problem with 3rd party stuff. There are way more things that are more broken than this single little talent, but i dont see people discussing about it. Only because it's paizo? If they publish "broken" stuff you play it and you are okay with it. But if you see "broken" stuff from 3rd party that came before paizo you insta-banhammer it.

I still fail to see the logic here. Also What's wrong with making the PCs with being "special" as in "more powerful than others"? Isn't that the objective of a FANTASY story made for said PCs?

Invisibility, Teleport, Summoning, Portals, Shadow control, God's powers, Weapon Masters, People that talk with animals, people that turn into animals, dragons, etc... and I cant hide by my own skill and also be effective as the previous mentioned ones?

Rynjin wrote:

Which is why you vet things.

Some people just seem to be taking offense at my suggestion that this is part of a GMs job.

And since many DMs are short on both time and money, it just isn't worth the extra work for many DMs to allow 3pp in a game.

d20pfsrd.com ,no need to pay to get in that site.

Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent can always apply sneak damage to ranged attacks against any enemy who is threatened by one of your allies.

Amazingly Awesome Sniper Talent
A Rogue with this talent gets double sneak damage on ranged attacks.

There. I've written some 3PP content, refined it, and published it here. (Hard copy: $19.99). You must now use these Talents, or you're insulting me.

This actually doesnt sound bad at all. I could use them.

We homebrewed the first one before in few games before due to the lack of flanking and cooperation between the players to let the sole ranged rogue to actually do something, and there were lots of ranged enemies so it didnt really matter.

The second one would be perfect for epic levels. When your attacks barely land and you are killing colossal dragons or demigods and travelling from plane to plane as if it was a sunday walk through the park.

See? Only because it sounds broken, doesn't mean it is. If you only think about what you can do with stuff, then everything is broken. The moment you start thinking about how to counter it you'll notice it wasnt broken at all, it was only you being lazy and not thinking how to deal with it.

Don't blame the material, blame the DM that does not know or care how to use it. Stuff is there, if you dont care about thinking on ways to use them properly and ends up being broken then it's your fault, not the stuff's. Hell, even paizo encourages people to use 3pp material.

Use your imagination, it's what all this stuff is about.

Also, yeah the 3pp material I use comes from d20pfsrd. Pathfinder releases are "new" and the dollar is not worth the same everywhere in the world, so not everyone has access to it.

I just see it sitting there and gathering dust... and well, why not?

Someone went through all the trouble to think it, write it, refine it, then publish it. It would be a waste and an insult to the creators not to use their creations.

I cannot fathom a reason not to use them. If i'm not wrong the idea of playing d20 games is to grab a game setting, use its rules and books as guides and reference and then homebrew whatever else you want... not to be bound by the books. This groups even go and create stuff out of nowhere for us and people refuse to use it? It's dumb.

The only reason I can imagine for not using them is because the DM is way too lazy to make an effort and think about what he has to do to counter this new stuff. There has always been stuff created by 3rd parties that were later added as official content, why is this different? Why do DMs get scared of content from a different source?

Master Sniper Talent. Its Third Party, just in case you didn't notice.

Yes, i know, which is why im asking... Do people not use 3rd party material?

Yeah i know, the stealth rogue build has those 2 obvious weaknesses...

Something that is immune to precision damage is immune to sneak attack.
Something with darkvision, blindsight and tremorsense wont let me hide.

And there are plenty of those 2...
Btw, Do people really not use the Master Sniper talent?

Its Normal or Bright Light, as opposed to Dim or Darkness. Preference I should say instead of issue.

That and the -10 does kind of suck (though Skill Focus offsets it somewhat).

It says it allows you to hide while being observed in normal and bright light. Not that it doesnt let you in dim light or darkness.

Ways to make a range rogue/sniper effective;

Greater Sniper Goggles
Any means of making it so rogue can see targets, but they can't see him (greater invisibility, deeper darkness & see in darkness, fog cloud & fog sight, et cetera)
Sniping (Stealthy Sniper talent, Swift as Shadows if he's a halfling, Expert Sniper if not a halfling, Greater Sniping weapon enchantment, Master Sniper feat, high Bluff skill to create distractions to hide)
Mocking Dance + Performing Combatant + Master Combat Performer = full attack plus one or more moves per round to kite away

Basically, you want to be able to switch between full attack and sniping depending on the situation. No reason to limit yourself to sniping with one or two (Master Sniper) shots if the enemy can't attack you anyway. On the other hand, with sufficient investment you can be almost impossible to detect while sniping... at which point low damage per round doesn't matter much, because you have all the time in the world to whittle them down.

Gonna write all that down if you dont mind. People really doesnt use the Master Sniper talent? Such a waste...

I was thinking on taking 2 levels of shadowdancer for HiPS, darkvision, evasion and uncanny dodge. Do you think its worth combat reflexes, dodge and mobility?

Normal sniping is UP. Master Sniper makes a total of 3 feats to shoot just one more arrow, making it a bit less UP, but UP nonetheless.

So with the 3rd party talent it's OP even though you'd need to be level 14 to get it? And that is without HiPS.

Why is there so much hate directed towards hiding and sneak attack builds? It's ridiculously easy for a DM to counter them, why not let them use stuff like that 3rd party talent? Bad enough is the fact that both Rogue and Slayer are feat-starved classes, if you optimize them for stealth you get even less space for combat oriented feats and talents.

So your only source of damage would be sneak attack, what's wrong with grabbing what you can to boost it?

Allow the 3rd party talent, and throw the occasional elemental, golem or anything immune to sneak attack, or something with blindsense, blindsight or tremorsense. There is plenty to choose, dont hate it only because it would annihilate your average bandit, it would be the DM's fault for not thinking about what to do and only looking at the numbers, not the player's for trying to optimize his character.

Another option is:
Hellcat Stealth, but it has some issues.

What issues? The -10? It would either be take -10 or another feat then?

What I could do, is to go for Hellcat Stealth first for a rudimentary HiPS. Then at 9 Eldritch Heritage, at 11 retrain Hellcat Stealth for Improved Eldritch Heritage.
That way I dont lose feats for nothing, and would only need to find a sorcerer with that bloodline... which might or might not be an easy task. But by level 11 I should already know where to find one. Otherwise I could take it at lvl 12 and retrain Hellcat Stealth for something else.

The last sentence means immediately after the first shot, they are aware of you. You cannot stealth unless you have HiPS or cover, and any additional attacks you make from that point on will not count as sneak attacks.

Spells, a pet, and more combat feats. Spells are huge. Once you have access to instant enemy Favored Enemy is much better than Studied Target. Not to mention utility from Longstrider and barkskin. The pet is another full character to fight with the party that the slayer can't match. Finally, the Slayer only gets three combat style feats, while a ranger gets more as they level. A slayer can get an extra combat feat via a rogue talent, but they have to meet the prerequisites for it.

So this would be valid for sniping attacks (if i had HiPS or cover). Would it be valid for the Master Sniper advanced talent?

And the range is more combat oriented + spells... So the fact that rangers get HiPS is just a plus? A tool that i can use whenever i want if i feel like using it?

Ohhh I see the once a day was for the transposition. Though... 3 feats for it...

Deadly Range (Ex) on Slayer's sniper entry:

When the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks.
After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence.

"within his weapon's first range increment", means the base "maximum" range of the weapon?

The last sentence, does it mean the snipe attack does not count as the attack mentioned there and i cannot hide after said attack?

Sniper goggles... did not know about them. But they dont seem to be something for early levels so if i get the sniper archetype, can I retrain it into no-archetype? (as if going back to normal slayer?)

Now that the Slayer covers the Ranger's combat aspect and the rogue's sneakyness and usefulness... Why would I want a Ranger for? What would be their role?

Also IIRC, the Ring of Blinking doesn't auto grant Sneak Attacks in Pathfinder, a much discussed change from 3.5.

Oh my god, i've just checked it on the Blink spell description... how did I miss something like that? should have guessed something broken like that was getting changed in pf...

Welp... gonna perma stealth on rogue now then. Will check what you mentioned.

The sniper archetype... for rogues? That doesnt grant you any sort of bonus to stealth, it only extends the range for sneak attacks.

Solved the rogue side then... what about the ranger? Do I have to play it like a stealth commando because of HiPS?

EDIT:
The Eldritch Heritage thing would only let me to HiPS near shadows once per day... I'd need to do it every few turns and most probably more than once a day.

Sniping is pretty much never worth it because you only get to make one attack a round.

Currently there just isn't a way to have your damage be competitive with a full attack action that can keep sniping offensively relevant compared to anything else anyone at the table with you will be doing.

The Master Sniper talent lets you full attack instead of just one shot by doubling the penalization.

As a requirement you need Stealthy Sniper, which halves the penalization so you'd only get -10. And -20 with Master Sniper if im not wrong.

So...here i am, getting ready for another campaign and wanted to play an archer.

Getting to the point, I run into a little but annoying problem when building them... I end up making both of them go for a stealth build.

A ranged rogue needs stealth to land the sneak attacks.
A ranger's got HiPS so it would be a waste to not use it.

A rogue sniper makes going ranged something possible. There are also plenty of talents to make of sniping something amazing (Master Sniper lets you full attack instead of shoot once). But it lacks HiPS, so you can only do that with some sort of cover so get your smoke sticks ready.

Picture: The sneaky guy that hides quick behind everything.

A ranger has spells, many of them can help you to become stealthier. They also are all forest and nature themed so thinking about camouflage is not weird.

Picture: Your typical commando elf covered in leaves and camouflage paint shooting at you from between the trees, bushes and high grass.

Now the actual issue is: Why on earth do i want to make 2 characters with the exact same tactics?
But then i think: If i get a ring of blinking on the rogue... Why would I go for a stealth build to begin with, when i could go for more damage or maneuverability?

And that brings me to the next questions: If the ring of blinking already makes any sort of stealth tactic obsolete (for sneak attack purposes only), what do i do with all the stealthy talents and feats i got on the rogue?

Should I retrain them or not get them in the first place?

Is there any possible way to get HiPS on a rogue?

Note: This is for an unchained rogue. Ninjas and gunslingers are not allowed.

Because the campaign setting does not allow either ninjas (or any sort of asian-related class) or guns.

Okay... so spining is an entire action on its own and i choose to do that or play like everyone else.

Is it worth getting feats/talents to optimize stealth and snipe attacks?

Should I just get a Ring of Blink and be done with it?

Is there any class/archetype with rogue talents and HiPS?